Microsoft Discussion, split from [picking up an Oculus Rift..?]

[ekianjo]

Using, and in turn learning Microsoft products, got me my job that has afforded me a pretty decent life. And had I not chosen that path, I would be stuck looking for a Linux admin job which appear to be in comparison much smaller demand. Statistics collection seems completely meaningless in comparison to its direct effect on my life.

A bunch of Linux folks are a in high demand and get pretty good salaries in the tech industry.

 

[EvilDragon]

Government knowing too much about you CAN be or become an issue.

Yes, most of us probably live in a government which is not that bad, where you have a comfortable life.
However, there are other countries, countries, where the government is horrible, where freedom is only a dream. Potentially dangerous people that might be able to start a revolution about the government here can be tracked down early. It might even be that innocent people are being executed, because their interests in their profile show that they COULD be dangerous.

Also, even in our governments, such thing could happen.
If some clever, might-hungry politician will be the new leader, something like what happened with Hitler could repeat - and he could also hunt down and execute potentially dangerous people to him before they do anything, simply based on the literature they bought and similar interests.

Yes, we all hope it will never happen again, but these things can happen faster than you think.

The refugee situation we have right now here has the potential to get another Hitler-like leader as well.

 

[ElPoco]

I agree with EvilDragon.
I'd also like to note that for many people out there, the problem is not the NSA. The NSA doesn't care about you.

The problem is your neighbor, your boss, the guy you had a heated argument on the Internet and who's now threatening to come to your house and beat you up. Once your personal data is out there, there's a chance it can leak out. Hackers can steal the database and sell the information, or just publicly release it. If cops get the access to such data, anyone who knows a cop could be able to have access to it.
I don't really care if someone in the NSA has access to all my personal information and communications and stuff, but I'd hate it if my neighbors did.

 

[thatgui]

Differences of opinions, your company might be serving only the Microsoft God, but there are others that use a wider range of OS's. We use what best fits and offers the best support. But the end result is lots of our special function servers are Linux, most of our enterprise services are Windows and basically all of our clients. It's just a ratio, and the ratio favors more techs in Microsoft products.

Using (or having to use) Microsoft products for my whole live now, I feel MS eventually is where it is because of habits: Some of their products are overall good products (with things to nitpick as in every other product) and some are just crap or at least no real comparison for similar products on the market (see MS Dynamics CRM or MS Sharepoint) just because Microsoft understood that they need to tie them in with their better products to force them into the market, as people are creatures of habit that usually don't want to deviate much from processes they established (see the silly "my start menu is gone in Windows 8 so it must be crap" outrage). Especially as a developer that has to work primarily with MS software I have rather mixed feeling when it comes to software products from MS. E.g.: I like Visual Studio, but why do I have to cope with bugs in VS2015 that where introduced in VS2008 (and MS knows about them since then) while with every new version VS gets even more bloated and after the first install I have to invest two hours of my lifetime to deactivate features so I am able to program "normally" on a not so top notch system. Or the lots of new dev products MS hyped over the years to be the next best thing after the invention of boiled water, and propagating it as the soon to be standard, to just drop supporting it half a year later. Or the artificial incompatibility that Microsoft introduced in the business and the soho world > "you can't use MSSQLServer20xx with product X lower the 20xx, because reason" or " you can't use the wireless adapter for the xbone controller only with windows 10 for no other reason then we want to push our product even more".

With Windows 10 MS brought that to the next level, as they set foot on my home turf (I know that this is an artificial line I created for myself). That's the reason (and not so much the whole telemetry stuff) why I had no problem accepting the changes that Win 8(.1) brought with it (even the really crappy design decision) but won't install Win10:

• the promo application, that I can't easily deactivate that is nagging constantly and is even downloading a complete OS on my system without my consent. I have an HTPC that runs a valid Win8 and due to some bug in the Windows update service I can't deactivate the specific update, so every other week the system does not start up completely just because MS decided it has to nag me with Windows 10, and then my wife starts nagging, and that's the line no one on this whole earth can cross
• forced updates: while not active yet, it will be not too far in the future, and I had already several cases where a system did not start up correctly (I do IT services in my company too) after automatically updating the system. The only way to get things to work again, was to roll back the system and figuring out which update was causing the error. How should this work out if MS takes complete control of the process (and no, the "wonderful" MS tech support is no option)?
• forced on applications and eula: One of the big gripes I have with non stock Android (company issued phone, so root is not allowed) is the big load of software I have no use for but that I can't deinstall, so they use resources, my time (update notifications) and are a potential security risk (just because they are developed by human beings). While they were partially already there in Win8, in Win10 I have to agree to an eula that grants MS a whole lot of rights to fair with recordings of my behavior and inputs to their liking even if I don't want to use them - I may be able to deinstall them, but I am definitely not able to withdraw my consent, as I gave it to the whole package, not every single application.
• Removing applications during an upgrade process: is this for real ? Now MS starts to decide what programs I "don't need" on my PC ?
• "randomly" resetting privacy settings: MS clearly has no real clue about a certain percentage of their users

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Could you disable the signature, please ?

What is your guys' stance on ad supported media and services? If the product is free as in beer, is it more acceptable to have them? If those were collecting metadata, does that cross the line? If it is a paid version of the same, do ads or collecting data become less acceptable?

If its ad supported and free I just don't use it. If a paid products shows me ads, I won't buy it in the first place, or won't use it anymore/ cancel the subscription. One of the reasons I only once bought an xbox-live Gold membership > I pay Microsoft money for something competitors on the market (like steam) already calculated in the sales price of the software, and as Microsoft seams to be very greatfull towards paying customers, I still see ads for games and other media, which I could not even age restrict.

The way I'm looking at it, but in the end, don't care at all about the privacy invasion either way, is their metadata is helping predict usage patterns to help bug fix and optimize experiences.
...

That's all nice, but why is it forced on me to play beta or gamma tester for MS - I already paid for the software, why do I need to pay for it over and over again. Its the same with the whole social network stuff - great that face book helps people to keep track of one another, but why am I forced to be part of it, even if I have no personal use for it - and I do not mean social pressure, just the simple fact that as soon as someone that has my cellphone number uses applikations like facebook or whatsapp on their mobile, I get forced into the system.

What is the perceived damages to you?

Imagine you wake up and someone would follow you the whole day with a pencil in his hand constantly moving over a notebook constantly monitoring (and evaluating) your actions. That is whats happening right now just with the small difference that that guy is invisible to you.
The perceived damage is that data about me is collected, analyzed and put into relation about me without my knowledge and no means for me to stop it. I am getting categorized constantly, if the algorithm is doing that, is good at it or not - I don't know, if this algorithm has a bug that leads to a wrong result in 0,0001% percent of the cases, very probable.
At this point in time, no one knows what all this data can be used for, but they collect it anyway, just to have a foot in the door when things are happening. Right now this data may only be used only to choose the "right" ads for me (which looks like most companies are still horrible at, currently) but a few years from now, your "score" or "evaluation" may decide your insurance fees or whether the loan for a house is granted, or maybe even if you are allowed entry in a certain country.
And these decision won't be made by real people that are involved in the process, but by algorithms that will definitely have a certain failure rate which is deemed acceptable.
And who takes care that this data is really secure ? And I am not only talking about "bad" governments but criminals evaluating that data too ?
Or think of how easy it can be to stigmatize people if such data gets official, maybe I want to run for an office and one of my competitors gets hold of such a dataset, blaming me of sodomy with magnolias, because my google and Payal records show that I search often for certain kinds of magnolias and usually get them delivered on Fridays and Saturdays, while I have not much interaction with female members on certain social networks and my (private) conversation with them only rarely contain the term magnolia while my local waste management company sends me an E-Mail, that my contract change has been accepted and my new "king size" bio waste container will be delivered on Monday.
May this alter my reputation in the community I want to please in order to get elected, most certainly. May this "special" interest have negative effects on my work in that certain office - maybe , ok certainly if I want to get into the park department, but I guess you get the picture.
What about other people that are "secret" bearers for some reason (doctors, lawyers, etc), there are good (imho) reason why there were footnotes regarding them in certain laws in the past, all this goes down the drain..

 

[___]

can't quote right now for some reason...
@thatgui: these automatic algorythms you speak of are already in place. the US government has a no-fly list that is automatically assembled by data aquisition and evaluation. If there is certain words/contexts in your communication, you will be added to the list and no human can stop this process from running. there have even been cases where a couple of people have been added automatically with no actual reason except they fit the pattern, and they have been turned back at US customs. Noone is able to tell what the exact criteria are anymore and noone will be able to take a person off that list, if you are on that you are basically screwed.

could happen to me and lots of others (well my communication is probably not of interest anymore but who knows what a bot decides to monitor at some point) because I have been politically active in the past and have affiliated with anti-capitalist organizations. This is no joke: even joking about bombs and drugs might make your name land on that wretched list.

the whole point is preemptive censorships or better self censorship: if people know that they are constantly watched, they will naturally stop behaving what they themselves might consider "suspicious", even more so if they are not aware of what exactly is deemed correct and incorrect behaviour. They will stop making certain remarks and in consequence also limit their dissenting/critical thinking accordingly over time. this has been proven and it has been a means for totalitarian governments to control their people for a long time. In the GDR people were constantly left with the feeling of being watched while never knowing if it was true or not, studies have shown that the self correcting behaviour has been imprinted in the population of the former GDR, so much, that even 20 years after rejoining western Germany, people still lower their voices significantly when joking or just talking about the government.

Imagine what this whole f'd up situation is doing to freedom of speech/thought and if you don't believe me SNESFAN: take a step back and look at your own posts. There are obvious threats to your privacy, you actually full well know that, you still don't care and wave it off with the "well I don't have anything to hide" attitude... that is exactly what I am talking about. Everybody has something to hide, and it's not a bad thing to hide your persona from entities unknown. it's your right and it should be a tendency of every normally thinking person to defend that right. sadly we are all left with the feeling, that if we did have something to hide, it would make us somehow suspicious. so we start censoring ourselves very subtly.
(I don't know if that's your opinion on the issue, I am extrapolating that assumption from your post but you get my point hopefully...)

 

[WizardStan]

Point being, there is a specific "crazy switch" as I'd like to call it, where you can say... wait, that's not right. And to say, well they could do xyz... doing x might be fine, and y might be controverial but still fine. But you fight at z. z is the point in which you say... no f*ing way. In the above examples. Z would be not doing anything dangerous in the seat belt law example, and banning groups of organizers in the monopoly one. Those are very clear "crazy switches" if you ask me. But the starting idea in each is what is required to do good.

Keep in mind that there are people that still believe seatbelt laws are excessive government oversight and refuse to wear them out of spite, despite the risk to life and pocketbook, and they've existed since the law was introduced.
There are people that believe anti-competitive laws are holding us down, and that companies that form monopolies would be better for the world. People that believe worker protection laws like minimum wage and maximum work hours are destructive and that the government can't be trusted with that kind of power.
There are people that believe it is not their duty to protect others, and that petty things like mandatory vaccines are just a way of controlling us, that it's better for children to die than to give in to government surveillance.
Point is, you can look at your crazy switch and think "yes, this is completely reasonable doubt" but everyone I've just described (and more) have done the same thing and think they're in the right on their personal crazy switch. Always question your crazy switch.
Maybe 50 years from now nothing bad will happen and people will look back on this and think "why didn't you want Google to know your schedule? The world is now better because of optimal fuel use and food sharing and whatever else we've invented in 50 years because of a central repository of human behavior."

 

[TrashyMG]

Well Windows still is a horrible product. Feel ashamed when you use it.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Yes, we all hope it will never happen again, but these things can happen faster than you think.

This is so true.

We seem to be at the tipping point where AI has a pretty good semantic understanding of the written word, it will surely soon be possible for a bot to effectively flag up 'suspicious' communications. What to do with this ability is of course the big question....

 

[Yoyobuae]

Anti-monopoly laws

I was going to post this retort involving anti-monopoly laws, the gov.erm.ent and Mike-row-soft, but I'm kinda planing some vacations to the US at some point in the near future, so let's leave it at that.

 

[comradekingu]

So to say, because of a single point, you should never use their products sounds a bit crazy.

Suggesting there is only one thing MS does wrong is what sounds crazy.

Point being, there is a specific "crazy switch" as I'd like to call it, where you can say... wait, that's not right. And to say, well they could do xyz... doing x might be fine, and y might be controverial but still fine. But you fight at z. z is the point in which you say... no f*ing way. In the above examples. Z would be not doing anything dangerous in the seat belt law example, and banning groups of organizers in the monopoly one. Those are very clear "crazy switches" if you ask me. But the starting idea in each is what is required to do good.

This is exactly what bulk surveilance is, a known evil. Not profiling everything is what is known to work.
It is fine, and doesnt escalate into anything. It has no tangible upside, and its sell-by-date z, is when its too late.
Looking into the bigger picture and helping humanity, would actually be to ban the indiscriminate collection of all data, sadly.

Back into computers, your safe space on the computer would be meaningless if they did like a China level monitoring and censorship which if their intents were evil would end up probably. Large scale problem vs small scale fear.

The level of censorship and surveilance, in particular with the American products MS peddles, is in tune with that level of surveilance the country utilizes. When the two collaborate, you dont have a safe space to begin with. And i mean the private and public sector, on every level and plane there is. Backdoors into routing equipment, trawl-net collection, corruption, etc. In the land of the free, private surveilance is a business of its own. It is worth a whole lot more than its turnover, so you know they are selling things under the table and/or need to get creative with monetizing it soon.
American surveilance, and laws are only not as directly cut-thoat, but that is because they have that level of
sophistication of going about it. Read: level of evilness. You do not need a blacklist if your whitelist trickery is indistinguishable from magic.
What you run on your computer isn't irrelevant to the premise, even in China, rendering your argument invalid.

 

[SNESFAN]

Jesus, lots of responses. I can't carry on 8 conversations at once but I'll respond to each. I know you all feel strongly for your stances. However it is only ED that seems to have made a response that is even remotely impactful to me.

@ekianjo - in comparison of when I did job searching about 5 years ago I can only speak for what I saw. The ratio of offerings shown more opportunity for windows admins, both were paying comparatively, just less offerings for the linux side.

@EvilDragon - the fear of things escalating out of control quicker than the public can respond is a legitimate fear. And I'm not discrediting stepping stones entirely because evil empires don't spout up over night, I'm more or less saying having more auditing, tracking of use, oversight, and transparency in the activities when the power is given rather than ban the power when being used for good.

We have a problem with the afordable care act in america, and it seems the people who are agianst the "obama care" are more accepting of surveillance and those that are for obama care are more vocally agianst surveillance. Not always, some are against both or any government power that could potentially effect their life, but that's my look on it. The arguments is never to fix either, it's to get rid of the one they have a problem with. Both are idealogiically good systems, but implementation could be better, and probably should be rewritten or corrections made.

When thinking about microsoft data collection, we aren't just talking about americans, as was my disclaimer in the beginning, and you're right, other parts of the world still use microsoft products, and if data collected got into another big brother's hands, the results could be much worse than for us.

@thatgui - fixed the signature, sorry, it keeps turning it's self back on for some reason. There are lots of niggles I have with windows desktop OS in the recent years, and basically anything after XP, but I look past them so I can run the applications I want to run. And from an admin point of view, systems have been much much easier to work on since the XP days. I've joked a bunch with my other admin friends about how microsoft is putting us out of a job. The OS just basically fixes it's self a lot more than it used to. We're still needed sure, but I spend a lot more time debugging apps and services than trying to keep people's clients in one peice like I used to. I do Microsoft SCCM work and develop our baseline image and software packages for deployment, just as insight in my involvement. The package microsoft offers for that, and asks for user experience feedback has been positive I feel, and maybe helps my stance on the matter of forced feedback and metadata collection. I have seen problems I experienced get fixed directly because of the feedback it gave them.

I do think the entire conversation would be different if they just asked, even if you had to opt out of it. I do understand the sense of invasion being felt by some by being forced into it.

The difference between a stalker and the census I feel is the disconnect. Even thought we can only assume your data is being collected as and used for analytical statistics (it is extremely likely to be analytical statistics, and extremely unlikely to be them stalking you) The scale is in the arguement when I made the correlation between how NSA does their thing. Then said that you might as well be afraid of anything as it could be a stepping stone into something worse. Now as ED said, if you're not an american, and your big brother decides it wants that data, I would agree you're screwed. In america, NSA probably wants some of that data also, but you're not screwed, unless you're doing something really really bad, in which case, I'm glad you're screwed.

I do understand the opinions being presented here, and there is more to it than I thought, but still not enough to convience me that what microsoft is doing is bad, and I do believe their intended uses are extremely likely to be good. however I would agree it has the potential to be used for bad if they wanted it to, or if gotten into the wrong hands. But as I said, ratio of sacrifice of privacy vs the potential gain, vs risk of misuse and in this case, I personally feel it's a net positive in favor of microsoft.

@WizardStan - and since there is such a wide range of feelings towards policy in general and the what is to be gained from having those policies, I'm glad there's a democracy. Freedoms we have where you can have opinions such as the ones being presented by everyone, it's just a matter of popular opinion. More people are for the laws I mentioned than against, and if not at the time, the gain from it seems overwhelmingly positive despite what the minority of naysayers like to believe. I truly believe that's what would stops tyrannical governments, and for us as americans anyway, the basis of the systems we have in place governing our government. The system isn't perfect, but abuse that has existed in the past or is currently being abused is extremely limited in comparison to what could have been if you had a free market, wild west, everyone for themselves, completely capitalist nation. I feel eveyone has their own opinion on where the crazy switch is flipped, and enough is enough. But that's a good thing, it keeps the entire system in check, when enough people's switches are flipped, bad policies disappear, or new policies are introduced. Objectively like the ones I mentioned.

@comradekingu - please don't say my argument is invalid. I respect people enough to say their opinions sound crazy, I still acknowledge the point they're making. Meaningless in comparison, I control the wires, I control your means to communicate. No communication, no collaboration, no ability to make a real impact on what the evil entity is doing. A silenced mouth can not scream. Combining the two, as a sum of it's parts would be worse if the intent was evil, but to me, one is obviously worse than the other as far as damage potential.

 

[___]

The difference between a stalker and the census I feel is the disconnect. Even thought we can only assume your data is being collected as and used for analytical statistics (it is extremely likely to be analytical statistics, and extremely unlikely to be them stalking you) The scale is in the arguement when I made the correlation between how NSA does their thing. Then said that you might as well be afraid of anything as it could be a stepping stone into something worse. Now as ED said, if you're not an american, and your big brother decides it wants that data, I would agree you're screwed. In america, NSA probably wants some of that data also, but you're not screwed, unless you're doing something really really bad, in which case, I'm glad you're screwed.

Really? In the US you will most definitely be as screwed as in most other democratic countries: it depends on what is seen as punishable by law!
I don't know if you remember, but until quite recently, it was illegal for one man to have sex with another man in a lot of states. This was punishable by law and you could go to prison for being gay.

I am pretty sure, data collected on consumption of certain websites, media and or whatever can still screw up your life in the US today.

let me elaborate: I was recently in the situation where I had to research pedophilia and child pornography (as a topic, of course not actual media) for work. I do of course know that consumption/possession of images and I believe even searching for something like that is illegal in Germany. So I actually stopped at some point because I did not feel safe even typing certain queries. This is self censorship (because of fear, that even using certain terms will make me suspicious).

or the mc carthy era. lots of people persecuted merely for being sort of communist... not so long ago either. These people were journalists, scientists, writers and common workers who had not revolution of any kind in mind (most fled their homes because they were prosecuted by the soviet regime even). they made lists including everyone who even uttered something they deemed socialist and people were banned from social life, voting, publishing, working and even sent to jail or had to undergo questioning.

 

[SNESFAN]

I don't remember them doing gay people witch hunts based off communication monitoring, I would be interested to read about that though, sounds quite a bit extreme.

Child abuse at that level I don't think is something the NSA is reporting. There are investigators in the FBI that do that from my understanding. I don't think search queries are gotten until a case is gathered on you. I could be wrong, however that is a pretty bad thing so it wouldn't surprise me if I was wrong.

I won't go into communism, I don't agree with the mindset my previous generation had towards that social economic system and their fear of it, equating it to evil seemed a bit off.

 

[comradekingu]

How old were you when you understood that always sharing everything was not ok?
How old were you when you decided it was?

I don't understand what makes this different just because its digital the first time around.
It also have the potential to reach e v e r y o n e in reasonable proximity to a computer connected to the internet on a first-round basis.

Microsoft isn't trying to help you live longer. Or?

Edit: Trying to understand your post above.

How far would the US, with MS at the very personal level style of surveilance have to go before you likened it to China? Is your level of freedom the same when the digital freedom of other Americans is taken away?

Do you have any reason to believe that prior and ongoing evils conducted by government wouldnt, or isn't using surveilance?

Its the ear that isnt in your livingroom that doesn't interfere with your living.

 

[SNESFAN]

How old were you when you understood that always sharing everything was not ok?
How old were you when you decided it was?

I don't understand what makes this different just because its digital the first time around.
It also have the potential to reach e v e r y o n e in reasonable proximity to a computer connected to the internet on a first-round basis.

Microsoft isn't trying to help you live longer. Or?

Edit: Trying to understand your post above.

How far would the US, with MS at the very personal level style of surveilance have to go before you likened it to China? Is your level of freedom the same when the digital freedom of other Americans is taken away?

Do you have any reason to believe that prior and ongoing evils conducted by government wouldnt, or isn't using surveilance?

Its the ear that isnt in your livingroom that doesn't interfere with your living.

I respect the fact I have a different view of authority than you do. If you are suggesting age has any relevance here. Sharing with my siblings differs greatly from sharing with my parents. And where sharing with my parents differs from sharing with my doctor. Something I feel is taught from an early age.

My current views on sharing with my doctor has a understanding that he could potentially have my info stolen, but the risk of it favors me telling him it in the first place as I have something to directly gain from it that outweighs that risk.

Sharing with my parents as it is on them as trusting authority to not misuse the info, and in return a means to keep me safe. But both are depending on the amount of trust someone has in those authorities.

Microsoft has the ability to make your experience better, and what they ask is for your usage habits in return. It seems like a reasonable enough request vs return to be had. If them knowing what your google searching, if that's what they're collecting, or if you go to file explorer or start menu to access a program if that's what they're collecting, both don't seem that bad to me. If the end result is me having a better/more efficient experience next time I do it, whatever, sure, sign me up.

MS would have to prevent me from accessing something on a fundamental level before I likened it to China. Or prevent me from posting content because they disagreed with its meaning. In that situation, it would not be acceptable to me as a trade off for a better experience.

I would agree that government surveillance of infrastructure has been used in the past for some of our more evil things we've done as a country. However, public policy most likely had nothing to do with those actions. Fighting against a public policy when those are out to help you, and also when the secret stuff is much worse; Intensional secret back doors, zero day vulnerabilities etc. Not exactly something you broadcast your apart of or get passed through congress. The public policies appear to most always be helpful rather than harmful in design. The closed door or undisclosed ones are the bad ones you normally don't find out about until it would be too late.

Given the fact we're not all slaves to the machine given the power that exists gives me confidence that the system is out to help rather than hurt.

 

[Klumpen]

I respect the fact I have a different view of authority than you do. If you are suggesting age has any relevance here. Sharing with my siblings differs greatly from sharing with my parents. And where sharing with my parents differs from sharing with my doctor. Something I feel is taught from an early age.

My current views on sharing with my doctor has a understanding that he could potentially have my info stolen, but the risk of it favors me telling him it in the first place as I have something to directly gain from it that outweighs that risk.

Sharing with my parents as it is on them as trusting authority to not misuse the info, and in return a means to keep me safe. But both are depending on the amount of trust someone has in those authorities.

Microsoft has the ability to make your experience better, and what they ask is for your usage habits in return. It seems like a reasonable enough request vs return to be had. If them knowing what your google searching, if that's what they're collecting, or if you go to file explorer or start menu to access a program if that's what they're collecting, both don't seem that bad to me. If the end result is me having a better/more efficient experience next time I do it, whatever, sure, sign me up.

MS would have to prevent me from accessing something on a fundamental level before I likened it to China. Or prevent me from posting content because they disagreed with its meaning. In that situation, it would not be acceptable to me as a trade off for a better experience.

I would agree that government surveillance of infrastructure has been used in the past for some of our more evil things we've done as a country. However, public policy most likely had nothing to do with those actions. Fighting against a public policy when those are out to help you, and also when the secret stuff is much worse; Intensional secret back doors, zero day vulnerabilities etc. Not exactly something you broadcast your apart of or get passed through congress. The public policies appear to most always be helpful rather than harmful in design. The closed door or undisclosed ones are the bad ones you normally don't find out about until it would be too late.

Given the fact we're not all slaves to the machine given the power that exists gives me confidence that the system is out to help rather than hurt.

Ok, I'll just let our vastly different opinions on current governments slide for now, but let me tell you a story:
Some time in the early 20th century, there was a list of gay people in Germany being made by whatever spying was technically possible at the time. Although being gay was illegal here, the officials that were supposed to have carried out sentences often didn't, because they thought the punishment was too hard for something that doesn't really affect anyone and there are way more important tasks at hand.
In the 1930s, the NSDAP got their hands on that list...

You get my drift?

It doesn't even need to be about things that are illegal now, like unlicensed copies (could theoretically already get you longer sentences than raping a minor), certain items in a historical weapons collection or whatever, it can always also be about things that are legal now but not in the future. Governments come and go, laws change, the public enemy may be a different one in the future too, just hope that it isn't you someday for some petty reason.

 

[comradekingu]

Sharing with my siblings differs greatly from sharing with my parents.

Im guessing you found this out at a very early age.

And where sharing with my parents differs from sharing with my doctor. Something I feel is taught from an early age.

The fuller implications of which im guessing most people attain later in life.

My current views on sharing with my doctor has a understanding that he could potentially have my info stolen, but the risk of it favors me telling him it in the first place as I have something to directly gain from it that outweighs that risk.

Theft is an issue, but we still havent gotten to the underpinnings.

Sharing with my parents as it is on them as trusting authority to not misuse the info, and in return a means to keep me safe. But both are depending on the amount of trust someone has in those authorities.

It also pivotally depends on the amount of trust you have in the communication-channel you use to convey the information.
Which if you consider the issue to be "theft", you are assuming a lot about the flow of information and power.

Microsoft has the ability to make your experience better, and what they ask is for your usage habits in return. It seems like a reasonable enough request vs return to be had.

If it was reasonable, there would be a reasonable limit to what they collect, when, and how.

If MS were reasonable, there would be some kind of rationality in how they store, protect, and transport that information.

It would all have a rational limit to how they use that information.

In the end, we have to look at the net effect.
It _certainly_ isn't improving their services in any tangible way that the non-spying competition doesn't have.

How reasonable do you think it is to give away everything,
to potentially everyone,
to specifically someone who has a bad record, and continues to have a bad record, for decades
in partnership with the worst abusers of force the world has ever seen, for centuries.

When all of it can, and does get, into the hands of China, mafia and criminals and ad-companies.

When it is forming a new business that merges with lobbying and the very institution of power.

I would agree that government surveillance of infrastructure has been used in the past for some of our more evil things we've done as a country.

And there is my answer.

... However, public policy most likely had nothing to do with those actions. Fighting against a public policy when those are out to help you, and also when the secret stuff is much worse; Intensional secret back doors, zero day vulnerabilities etc. Not exactly something you broadcast your apart of or get passed through congress. The public policies appear to most always be helpful rather than harmful in design. The closed door or undisclosed ones are the bad ones you normally don't find out about until it would be too late.

It did then, and does have something to do with it now, more alarmingly now since this is unprecedented.
Especially since it has far reaching and increasing effects into the future. Also for people that aren't born yet.
Within reason of the part of it that was legal, before you needed suspicion and due course, now its everyone, all of the time.
Do you want the public policy to be a policy that is not for the public?
That is _exactly_ the types of things US politicians and lobbyists are trying to get, and get, passed through congress.

MS would have to prevent me from accessing something on a fundamental level before I likened it to China. Or prevent me from posting content because they disagreed with its meaning. In that situation, it would not be acceptable to me as a trade off for a better experience.

Kinda like its search engine, or its gaming service, or business practice. Or or...
Spying is just the icing on the cake. MS is _exactly_ the kind of company the not-for-the-public - public policy wants. How is your service improving anywhere?

But hey, its democratic and its in there, somewhere. And you can totally go meet up in public and have a demonstration about it. And be profiled for it, forever. Maybe the ad-companies can tailor something to help you with that?

Just because you dont know, doesnt mean someone else who does, is self-censoring themselves out of being vocal about it.
There is a level of blacklisting, a level of secrecy about that, and there is a level of whitelisting, which subdues dissent, and a level of priority, which marginalizes it. The US is doing all three. Helped by Microsoft. Or maybe it is the other way around?

It certainly isnt diamentrally opposite, which is my idea of freedom.

If them knowing what your google searching, if that's what they're collecting, or if you go to file explorer or start menu to access a program if that's what they're collecting, both don't seem that bad to me. If the end result is me having a better/more efficient experience next time I do it, whatever, sure, sign me up.

This is only the smallest detail of what they pick up. Does it bother you at all that all of it has your name attached to it?

Given the fact we're not all slaves to the machine given the power that exists gives me confidence that the system is out to help rather than hurt.

Where do you draw the line?

Edit: What kind of polar system is either out to hurt or help? If you think that it goes to an extreme over time, which one is it?

 

[SNESFAN]

Ok, can I ask what specific info you could potentially not want them to have, and for a reason other than the plausible yet unlikely situation of then coming after someone for being gay or a Jew, because I do acknowledge that danger. And if that's the only fear, then we will stand in agreement that it's potentially bad.

 

[Klumpen]

Ok, can I ask what info you could potentially not want them to have, and for a reason other than the plausible yet unlikely situation of then coming after someone for being gay or a Jew, because I do acknowledge that danger. And if that's the only fear, then we will stand in agreement that it's potentially bad.

- OpenSource software and devices can be seen as "socialist/communist" and put you on the list of enemies, therefore especcially the Americans here are danger if there'll be another communist hunt like not too long ago in the "land of the free".
- If religious fanatics take over, any porn streaming or download in the past may get you into serious trouble
- Bought something from China? Supporter of the enemy!
- Have a muslim buddy? Ermyfokkingawd!
- Made a slightly critical remark about your local police or government? Into the "re-education" camp with you!

Every information can and eventually will be used against you.
Best case: Advertising bombs
Usual (already real) case: Certain jobs and visas not available to you, sometimes investigative custody
Worst case: Concentration camp / Guantanamo Bay / Gulag

 

[SNESFAN]

- OpenSource software and devices can be seen as "socialist/communist" and put you on the list of enemies, therefore especcially the Americans here are danger if there'll be another communist hunt like not too long ago in the "land of the free".
- If religious fanatics take over, any porn streaming or download in the past may get you into serious trouble
- Bought something from China? Supporter of the enemy!
- Have a muslim buddy? Ermyfokkingod!
- Made a slightly critical remark about your local police or government? Into the "re-education" camp with you!

Every information can and eventually will be used against you.
Best case: Advertising bombs
Usual case: Certain jobs and visas not available to you
Worst case: Concentration camp / Guantanamo Bay / Gulag

The government uses open source software, most if not all governments do.

Porn, really? Arrest the entire internet, ok

Everything is made in China.

Muslim falls under the Jew argument, acknowledged.

Cynical remarks against the government is what I covered in my opposition to censoring infrastructure. I am against that, but china doesn't need Microsoft's help in doing that.