dflemstr said:
Monk, I must say that I can't follow your logic.
If I have a mixer that I want to mix fruit with, but that mixer is of such a low quality that things always get stuck in it, is that the fruit's fault? Should I really modify all of the fruit out there to be softer, or should I instead just realize that the mixer is defective and use a different one? That's how you sound, and I really can't understand the reason why.
Sigh. I hate browser wars so I'm torn. I'd kinda hoped this wouldn't go that way... but I'll play for a bit, I guess.
I agree with the mixer thing, but I do not see clearly which is the fruit and which is the mixer. IE works for me perfectly on all but 2 sites that I regularly visit (amusingly - perhaps - the other site that has problems with IE is the one that has problems with FireFox!). I don't care to learn all the depths of the standards and read up on or test which browsers seem to comply with which standards, which ones fall over when a rule os broken and which ones fail elegantly and so on and so forth - like many of the hoped-for-future users of Pandora and Linux I don't WANT to be all geeky about it - I just want the thing to work. To me, if there are 2 components that don't work together which do I blame if they all work with everything else? Maybe it's worth some effort to find out, and maybe it isn't. In this instance the problem I am encountering I encounter on no other forum - and I don't encounter it with any type of user other than the "Guru" users on THIS forum. To me it seems likely - probable even - that there is some difference in the Guru user postings which is the cause of the problem. I don't want or need to look any closer at who is "responsible" - whether what's different in the Guru settings is within some technical spec. that some browsers treat differently to others - I just know it has to do with the Guru feature of this forum and Internet Explorer 7 - and possibly other browsers (I don't know, I don't use other browsers on this machine and I don't visit this forum from other machines).
So - if my problem is with the code used to display Guru settings conflicting SOMEHOW with Internet Explorer, what should I do about it? Expect Microsoft to fix it? Use a browser I cannot (or will not?) use? (obviously I can't do things that I cannot do) Or assume/hope that the peope who have access to the way the board works can find what's different between a Guru and a user or a power user or a (insert various other categories of forum user that DON'T freak IE out here) and go "Ah! We can fix that for all our IE users just by fising up that line of code!"?
The last thing I expected from my presenting a compatability problem was a browser war. I mean, really, who here isn't too old for this ship?
dflemstr said:
EDIT: And that a site is incompatible with FF... Now, it is a valid claim to say that such an incompatibility in fact is that site's fault, since Firefox does follow the web standards and therefore isn't to blame for the faulty rendering.
As I say, the site that has FireFox problems also tends to have IE problems. But if it didn't (and no, theya ren't the same problems) then how/why should I say it's definitively the site's fault? All I want to do is browse, chat, talk about the topic. This site here is in no way my responsibility. I figured reporting that there was a problem and wondering if anyone could help out was about the lkmit of my responsibility. I can't expect more IMHO from the site that breaks in FireFox because the underlying site design isn't my responsibility or fault in either cace - or my interest. Here my interest is the GP2X and Pandora gaming devices - not the site design.
trooper said:
Anyway, Monk, Couldn`t you try using any of the many "Portable" versions of certain browsers available ?, For some of the sites that don`t seem to render correctly in IE. You don`t need to install anything when using a portable version, They run from usb flash drives,
You can take it with you where ever you go, Along with your bookmarks, Saved tabs, Plug-ins etc.
Nope - that's not a tenable option for various reasons, probably the least of which is "why should I go to the hassle of doing that - and keeping the extra browser up-to-date and so on and so forth - for one site?". I think it was especially the fact that it was Craig making an early snarky comment that really pithed me off - as IMHO he ought to have more of a "user-friendly" attitude wanting his kit to sell to people for... playing games. And games playing is the topic I come here for - not browser tech or OS wars or (yadda yadda). I'm the first to admit that topic drift is a great way of becoming aware of other things (for example, while being here looking for news about Pandora I found out about World Of Goo - a game which has caused hours of entertainment since!). But... OK, I think I have a handle on a way to explain it. It's like DRM as far as I'm concerned.
Ignore any work, NDA, official secrets act and so on balderdash reasons as to why I may be best served using IE. It really doesn't matter AFAICS as it's my information and is not IMHO necessary to the conversation - I have to use IE ergo I have to use IE. But let's take a look at it, if I may, from the point of view simply of what a USER is/has to do. One of the main things I hate/loath about DRM is that it is software to do not what *I* want it to do, but what someone else wants me to do (or not do). Usually, it seems, SONY or one of their pals. I object to someone else telling me what software I have to run on my computer for them to permit me to do... whatever. Play games, manage bank accounts, do route finding, play music - whatever it is one of the lures of the whole "Open" movement is the concept that I have software to work for me, software that does what *I* want to do. I don't have to run stuff for other people, I have choice. This si the idea and goal I keep pushing for, and looking for.
I can view browsers the same way - I should IMHO have the choice to run a browser of my choice. It really doesn't matter if the browser is the crappiest one going, I ought to be able to use it and expect a reasonable amount of compatability IMHO. I'm not talking about expecting sites to cope with the quirks of every version of every browser since IE3, but IE7 is hardly THAT old. IE 8 isn't even at SR1 yet (see other threads for "never use before SR1 comments!) not is it so new IMHO that one can scream "It's so new and buggy that we don't know quite how it will work in 6 months time yet, let it stabilise before we work wround it's problems" (or similar). It's not, it seems to me, unlikely that "the problem" is fixable by changing something in the Guru panel code that is different to the other badges. I don't know what as I haven't dug into the HTML to compare different badges, but it seems to be there. Frankly, I find that my request for aid in this area turning into a browser war cum DRM-like "you need to run THIS browser for our site" type approach bewlidering. Offputting. Not friendly in any way shape or form.
Actually your post has been *one* of the less belligerant sounding, but even so you're suggesting I modify my computer use to work with this site. Which every other IE user would have to do. To me, it would be better if "the problem" were fixed - either by improving the browser IF that's part of the issue (unproven, uninsterested) or by fixing the code of the site. I did not think approaching Microsoft would be of any use. I DID think that this site would be more interested in being user-friendly and pro-choice. I expected a much more open go-to-it approach... such as Gruso initially offered (OK, he didn't fix anything but he displayed EXACTLY the kind of response I expected - vague interest in where the issue might be and therefore how it might be addressable, comradea-like approach).
Now I would really REALLY like to be shot of this argument. There are places for browser wars, I am sure, and I do not believe this to be one of them, personally. I'd just like the issue addressed. If the official board stance is "IE users can change broswers, put up with fatal flaws, or leave" then at least I will know where I stand.
Phew! I just wannt chat about the Pandora, yannow? this is too much like... work!
Thanks to the few people, but especially Gruso (as he sticks out in my memory), who have made positive comments.
