Blog Update 2/15/09

[Vorporeal]

And makes it real easy to do something disastrous by hitting them by mistake.

Of course, this is all re-mappable. There's nothing preventing someone from re-mapping the mouse clicks to the game buttons from L/R. They're undoubtedly going to be on keys where there aren't labels.

 

[peca]

And makes it real easy to do something disastrous by hitting them by mistake.

Surely only as disastrous as hitting real mouse buttons by mistake?

By gragged discussion I lost my belief that really all buttons (which means even game buttons) are remappable. So can you clear if user can map ctrl and alt to L/R and mouse buttons to A/B/X/Y? Is SysRq taken on mind or thrown away (ctrl + pandora key will be neat)?

 

[salasq]

Can work with. Nice

 

[cosam]

I've steered clear of the numerous keyboard layout discussions before as I trusted the devs would come up with a good solution. But this? Man, what a mess... nothing is where anyone would expect it to be. I don't get the "two thumbs" argument at all, when sticky keys (as featured on any thumb-board I've used before) would let you place all the symbols in a more familiar position. It's no show stopper for me though; I'm not planning on writing essays on this thing. It would however be nice to be able to type simple expressions and use bash without having to search for characters.

 

[Eight Bit]

Excuse my not so good graphical skills... I came up with this

 

[Creature XL]

Cmon... Why not use L or R button as FN?

No thumbs needed! Only index fingers!!

OMG!
It is so simple

I think that should work.
I think I have to get used to the fact that we have the gaming controlls ADDITIONALLY

 

[benjiro]

If this layout would become final and I wouldn't hack the driver to allow a universal dead-key, I would throw Pandora out of the window after trying to write two sentences in real life when I'm not on this board.
4 keypresses for one fucking umlaut?

For four months after paying I liked the layout(thought it would somehow be the one I'll get).
Now I've to worry an undefined amount of time if custom keypads will be made available.

I've tried to contribute in the way I could to this project by providing info and answering questions. I'm no dev so that was all I could do. No one will miss me when I drop out, so that's a good thing.
Don't worry I'll wait for delivery and won't cancel my order.

If there is no definitive German layout in the works and soon to be available when Pandora is delivered, my Pandora's box is going straight to eBay. Upgrading my N800 to N900 instead of Pandora would be no problem and from an UMPCer's point of view not the worst thing to do.

Mali, i hope your being sarcastic?

I think this "language" specific is going overboard. I don't see people going, and trowing treads around, for the OQO 2+ or the UX for not having specific xxx language keys.

Lets see:
The French want there own layout.
The Germans want there own layout.
The Arabic will probably also want there own layout.
The Italians ...

Hey, i'm from Belgium. Azerty layout anybody? No? Ho well. Looks like i'm still not trowing my Pandora out off the window.

Its a 48 characters limited keyboard. Even on a full 104 character keyboard, you can't have all the keys that the combined French, Germans etc want.

The Pandora is aimed at a international market. By this definition, the default layout reflects this, by focusing on the English language, and speed of typing. Are you going to be writing full German essay texts on the Pandora? No. If you do want that, you buy a small external travel keyboard, with German layout, and plug it in the USB2.

It does not mater what layout the developers focus on, because there will always be people that are pissed off. I'm seriously thinking it might have been better to leave the keyboard part off, and have a LCD touch screen there, with a keyboard display. Will have solved all this language specific problems. Maybe for the Pandora 2?

 

[RajTakhar]

well done on the blog update


Keyboard layout looks ok to me, but others I'm sure will disagree

 

[urjaman]

Hmm the keyboard layout looks ok to me, although it doesnt have free space for mapping any country-specific keys. I can live with a software re-map of £=>ö and Yen=>ä.

 

[Monk]

L and R are left and right mouse click, makes it easy to use the nubs as a mouse + slider.

Although the image is largely illegible (seriously, are you guys straining your eyes to make out the detailed tiny characters on that image?) I can see tiny things I personally would change - like move the Z-M characters 2 keys left and the full-stop and comma 7 keys right so they are more familiarly placed, but much there looks good.

With the possible exception of the mouse buttons being where stated. I'm sure that makes them very accessible, but I also worry about them being too accessible - accidents. Hmmm... and yes, an incorrect mouse click can be most annoying. Much depends on what the software is and how well it deals with user error like incorrect mouse clicks.

I like the shift/caps lock/enter placement. I mostly hope that as you guys are making it you have a better idea of what actually WORKS in your hands than we do. I've seen some lovely keyboard layouts on handhelds as I look around lately, but they have all concentrated on getting the basic letters and symbols right, not on more esoteric symbols or indeed even numbers. As a result they seem to have more room for better looking keys and better placement overall.

I'm more concerned about how much heat each keyboard thread generates than the keyboard layout itself, I think! I'd love to see a larger, clearer bitmaps. One that won't kill my eyes to interpret

 

[mali]

Mali, i hope your being sarcastic?

No, I'm not.QUOTE

I think this "language" specific is going overboard. I don't see people going, and trowing treads around, for the OQO 2+ or the UX for not having specific xxx language keys.
I don't know, what OQO or UX are sold with in Germany but N810 is sold with a German layout.

QUOTE
Lets see:
The French want there own layout.
The Germans want there own layout.
The Arabic will probably also want there own layout.
The Italians ...

Hey, i'm from Belgium. Azerty layout anybody? No? Ho well. Looks like i'm still not trowing my Pandora out off the window.
The big difference here is, that umlauts were included from day one on every render and suddenly they are gone. The product isn't the one I paid for any more.
QUOTE

Its a 48 characters limited keyboard. Even on a full 104 character keyboard, you can't have all the keys that the combined French, Germans etc want.
Having to press 4 keys for one umlaut is an imposition IMO
QUOTE

The Pandora is aimed at a international market. By this definition, the default layout reflects this, by focusing on the English language, and speed of typing. Are you going to be writing full German essay texts on the Pandora? No. If you do want that, you buy a small external travel keyboard, with German layout, and plug it in the USB2.
I was not really happy with the clamshell design, but the keyboard made up for it(notice past tense).
QUOTE

It does not mater what layout the developers focus on, because there will always be people that are pissed off. I'm seriously thinking it might have been better to leave the keyboard part off, and have a LCD touch screen there, with a keyboard display. Will have solved all this language specific problems. Maybe for the Pandora 2?

I agree.

 

[PhenXDesign]

Why wouldn't there be two Fn positions ? L or R like said kin, and there would be 4 possibilities for any key, and always the two thumbs free to make more complicated combinations.
Tell me if that would viable.

 

[A_Llama]

I'd love to see a larger, clearer bitmaps. One that won't kill my eyes to interpret

Dude, click on the picture. It links to a bigger version

 

[Monk]

Hmmmm... this post will either be helpful/eye-opening or bloody annoying. Take your pick as to what you believe my intent to be.

I think this "language" specific is going overboard. I don't see people going, and trowing treads around, for the OQO 2+ or the UX for not having specific xxx language keys.
I don't know, what OQO or UX are sold with in Germany but N810 is sold with a German layout.

I quite like the N810 layout shown, as far as I looked, but Benjiro was talking about the OQO and UX. Specifically.

Its a 48 characters limited keyboard. Even on a full 104 character keyboard, you can't have all the keys that the combined French, Germans etc want.
Having to press 4 keys for one umlaut is an imposition IMO

OK, here's the contentious bit. The bit that's been nagging at my brain since the first keyboard layout thread I watched descend into chaos.

Presumably most of us are not typing these posts on andora1: 's since they do not exist. Most of us are using full-fledged desktop keyboards or, at worst (I suspect) notebook keyboards which are still far FAR superior to the thumb-board that andora1: is going to have.

How many Umlauts do you see in the actual posts, though? That is - how often is that keypress ACTUALLY required as opposed to () (which I use a lot - sometimes even nested!) or ! or even %? And @ has become vital since email took off in a big way decades ago. I honestly can't read much of that image that was posted, but it seems to me - SEEMS - that there is a fair chance that most if not all of the characters chosen to be represented on the keyboard by fewer than 4 keypresses have been chosen because they are used more often than Umlauts are - even, I suspect, in Germany.

Personally I am more annoyed that the keyboard isn't a keyboard but a mobile phone/calculator thumb-pad. The original image I had of the Pandora had, I am sure, what looked very much like square keycapped keys. If that had come to pass this whole issue could be a LOT easier IMHO.

Does anyone still have that cardboard cutout Pandora "top image" that got sent out with F-200's? (in the UK at least)

I''''d love to see a larger, clearer bitmaps. One that won''''t kill my eyes to interpret

Dude, click on the picture. It links to a bigger version


Does it do that for you? Cool. It does not do that for me (I tried).

 

[(naw)mcx]

Not sure if some one has said this, but could some one not program a onscreen keyboard that only shows the keys needed in a big size, so you can just thumb them when needed?

 

[Monk]

Ah! I have to go find the URL for the unofficial blog to go find the Pandora key layout that's large enough to see! How dumb of me!

Not sure if some one has said this, but could some one not program a onscreen keyboard that only shows the keys needed in a big size, so you can just thumb them when needed?



I'd wondered that too - even Macs and Windows in the last century had virtual keyboards built into the OS/GUI. We even had to demo a Mac to a client without a keyboard once because the keyboard got left behind at our offices... was great to demonstrate that the equipment was designed to let the client work "in the real world" regardless of accidents, as much as possible...

 

[ste_167]

It must be a nightmare cramming in all those characters!

Will the lack of cursor keys be a problem for many PC games?

Many use them with Z and X, or Ctrl (not present) and Shift.

Can they be mapped to the d-pad and fire buttons by the system ie. not simply redefining them in the game (which may not be possible).

 

[Tor]

I will not comment on the umlaut/national character issue, because I know we can never win -- there are simply not enough hardware keys available. However, if that comment about having to press two keys at the same time with the same right thumb just to get TAB is correct, then that sounds cumbersome indeed.

 

[mali]

QUOTE

Hmmmm... this post will either be helpful/eye-opening or bloody annoying. Take your pick as to what you believe my intent to be.
I believe in your good intentions, so don't worry

QUOTE
I quite like the N810 layout shown, as far as I looked, but Benjiro was talking about the OQO and UX. Specifically.
Yes, but what has an overpriced x86 brick todo with an ARM handheld? N810 fits the bill better and actually Pandora is supposed to be the upgrade from my N800(which has got no hardware keyboard at all, better none than an unusable taking up space).

QUOTE
OK, here's the contentious bit. The bit that's been nagging at my brain since the first keyboard layout thread I watched descend into chaos.

Presumably most of us are not typing these posts on andora1:'s since they do not exist. Most of us are using full-fledged desktop keyboards or, at worst (I suspect) notebook keyboards which are still far FAR superior to the thumb-board that andora1: is going to have.

How many Umlauts do you see in the actual posts, though? That is - how often is that keypress ACTUALLY required as opposed to () (which I use a lot - sometimes even nested!) or ! or even %? And @ has become vital since email took off in a big way decades ago. I honestly can't read much of that image that was posted, but it seems to me - SEEMS - that there is a fair chance that most if not all of the characters chosen to be represented on the keyboard by fewer than 4 keypresses have been chosen because they are used more often than Umlauts are - even, I suspect, in Germany.
You are wrong here, but how can I explain since you don't know/practise German? Why should there be any umlaut on an English board where people write in English :lol: The missing of umlauts here doesn't prove that they don't exist elsewhere

Edit:
Just go on www.openpandora.de and check for some umlaut practise there

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, as said, I'm definately planning on releasing at least a German keymat for some bucks, so I wouldn't worry about those umlauts too much...