Actual specs?

[Mr_Loon]

It would be great to hear from ED / someone else in the know what the actual cost / battery use ramifications are for 2GB vs 4GB of ram as well as for various sizes of eMMC.

Without this knowledge it's pretty difficult to decide which would be best for Pyra.

 

[fusion_power]

There were already discussions about different Pyra versions. For sure there will be one with and without 3G/4G. Maybe also in combination with and without 5GHz WiFi. I could imagine that the "Pyra Pro" comes with all that and 4GB RAM and the cheaper "Pyra Basic" with 2GB. The SoC module is quite flexible it seems, you can add easily less or more RAM chips.

 

[Grench]

There were already discussions about different Pyra versions. For sure there will be one with and without 3G/4G. Maybe also in combination with and without 5GHz WiFi. I could imagine that the "Pyra Pro" comes with all that and 4GB RAM and the cheaper "Pyra Basic" with 2GB. The SoC module is quite flexible it seems, you can add easily less or more RAM chips.

Not really - the physical space on the SoC card is pretty limited. To go from 2GB to 4GB isn't a case of adding more chips.  The physical chip count would need to stay the same and the density inside those chips would have to double.

That makes them more expensive.  More RAM is more energy which is more heat.  2GB should be plenty for what the Pyra should be doing.  Assuming we get to the point where software can support it, I plan to run the full Debian OS, whatever game I want to play, a browser, a work email Android VM, a home email Android VM and a games Android VM all inside the 2GB without getting into a swap file.

 

[rygD]

I haven't actually looked into requirements to play Android games.  I feel like I have asked this before, but if I haven't: do some Android games need massive amounts of RAM, so that Grench's plan may be a problem for some of them?

 

[WizardStan]

From what I've seen, Android apps don't actually need a lot of RAM. Android itself uses a lot of RAM because it keeps as many applications in memory as possible to minimize startup times, and also has a lot of questionably useful apps running. Kill what you don't need and it easily stays below 512MB.

 

[Ligachamp]

Some of the " * " marks could be removed from that site, like that one of the LCD, the battery, the wifi module and the "6 face buttons". Also the size of the final device should be clear now.

The only error I found was the information about the combo-sata port, which istn't true anymore. At least not in that way. It should be mentioned that there is sata compatibility through a separate, passive adapter.

My opinion about the RAM question is to let the Pyra have those 4 gigs. Surely those won't get maxed out most of the time, but think about the fact that the Pyra will run a full Debian OS, which is definetly NOT as memory saving as the Pandora OS. In addition to that, there should stay enough room to run a (maybe heavy) emulator and a webbrowser at the same time.

 

[Alperoot]

Some of the " * " marks could be removed from that site, like that one of the LCD, the battery, the wifi module and the "6 face buttons". Also the size of the final device should be clear now.

The only error I found was the information about the combo-sata port, which istn't true anymore. At least not in that way. It should be mentioned that there is sata compatibility through a separate, passive adapter.

My opinion about the RAM question is to let the Pyra have those 4 gigs. Surely those won't get maxed out most of the time, but think about the fact that the Pyra will run a full Debian OS, which is definetly NOT as memory saving as the Pandora OS. In addition to that, there should stay enough room to run a (maybe heavy) emulator and a webbrowser at the same time.

According to the Pyra development site

 Pyra should use less battery for the same CPU power compared to the Pandora, but it will need more battery for CPU intense tasks.

Also, 4 GB of RAM is a good idea (I don't know if it's possible) but it's gonna take more time to add it. I think, a Pyra model like Pyra Rebirth can be made after some time. And, 2 gigs of RAM isn't all that bad, is it?

Edit : Pyra OS will be edited, too. Just "not as much as Pandora OS".

 

[levi]

I ran Debian on my netbook, with 1GB of RAM.  I did upgrade that to 2GB to make it less dependent on a swap file, but I could then overload my browser with tabs and emulate GBA games at the same time, no problem.

 

[TrashyMG]

I seem to keep needing to post this. On the OMAP5 devboard, even with moderate multi-tasking and more than 10 tabs open in Iceweasel, Libreoffice, IRC and a game running on top of running an X11VNC server session so I could take the screenshot...  I have a hard time pushing the devboard to use 1GB, let alone 2GB..

 

 

[Ligachamp]

Some of the " * " marks could be removed from that site, like that one of the LCD, the battery, the wifi module and the "6 face buttons". Also the size of the final device should be clear now.

The only error I found was the information about the combo-sata port, which istn't true anymore. At least not in that way. It should be mentioned that there is sata compatibility through a separate, passive adapter.

My opinion about the RAM question is to let the Pyra have those 4 gigs. Surely those won't get maxed out most of the time, but think about the fact that the Pyra will run a full Debian OS, which is definetly NOT as memory saving as the Pandora OS. In addition to that, there should stay enough room to run a (maybe heavy) emulator and a webbrowser at the same time.

According to the Pyra development site

 Pyra should use less battery for the same CPU power compared to the Pandora, but it will need more battery for CPU intense tasks.

Also, 4 GB of RAM is a good idea (I don't know if it's possible) but it's gonna take more time to add it. I think, a Pyra model like Pyra Rebirth can be made after some time. And, 2 gigs of RAM isn't all that bad, is it?

Edit : Pyra OS will be edited, too. Just "not as much as Pandora OS".

I was relating to the capacity of the battery. ED already gave clear informations about that

And you're right, 2 GB of RAM would be nice too, but to be honest, I dislike the idea of creating a second batch with doubled RAM. If the price won't change a lot, this would be kind of unfair to those who buyed the models with smaller RAM.
Surely the OS will be optimized (or at least I hope for it).

 

[Pocak]

One question about the Pyra RAM: Does "Dual Channel" exist in the mobile SoC world?

The OMAP5 has two fairly independent 32-bit SDRAM controllers, so it's fine to call it "dual channel". The OMAP3 has one 32-bit controller. This is in line with industry trends.

Note that a DIMM slot is 64 bits wide, so when PCs went dual channel in the Athlon64 era, their memory bus went from 64-bit to 128-bit data width.

It would be great to hear from ED / someone else in the know what the actual cost / battery use ramifications are for 2GB vs 4GB of ram as well as for various sizes of eMMC.

Without this knowledge it's pretty difficult to decide which would be best for Pyra.

The datasheet for the prototype's RAM chips was linked in a news thread, and it lists 12mA as the maximum self refresh current (IDD6). With four chips at 1.35V, that's 65mW. That by itself would drain the battery in about two weeks.

I looked up the chip with double the capacity from the same manufacturer (IM8G16D3FBBG). Self refresh current is 25mA, so suspend-to-ram time is down to one week. Surprisingly, the power consumption when active is higher as well, around 1.5x. These are maximum ratings though, so actual consumption may be lower.

 

[Grench]

I was relating to the capacity of the battery. ED already gave clear informations about that

And you're right, 2 GB of RAM would be nice too, but to be honest, I dislike the idea of creating a second batch with doubled RAM. If the price won't change a lot, this would be kind of unfair to those who buyed the models with smaller RAM.
Surely the OS will be optimized (or at least I hope for it).

Asside:  Wow - managing quotes is a nightmare on the new forum software!

So, by that statement, "I dislike the idea of creating a second batch with doubled RAM. If the price won't change a lot, this would be kind of unfair to those who buyed the models with smaller RAM", no computer company, car company or any company, should ever be allowed to create an upgraded, updated or new product or segment the marketplace with differential hardware specs because it would be unfair to their original customers.  

Wow...  Clearly I should still be using my old IBM PC 5150 - and I should take out the AST 6-pack and the 20MB HDD that I'd put in it oh so many years ago.  When I upgraded from my 1200 baud modem to a 2400 then 38400, I was clearly being unfair to those others who had bought the same early hardware.  Now that I'm on a 100Mbit cable connection I should feel particularly guilty?

But then, it's clear that there are several people here coming in from the Windows world where 2GB of RAM isn't enough to run your OS.  Welcome to the world of Linux, where code is far kinder to system resources.  For everything you're likely to want to do, 2GB is a lot of memory.  It also strikes a balance between RAM space and battery life.  Remember, that RAM has to be kept powered in standby mode.  It directly hits the battery ALL the time unless the unit is completely powered down.  Powering the RAM is likely 80% of the energy costs while in standby mode  To double the RAM would decrease standby mode by 40% or more.  So, 4 GB would get a 'spec credit' to pay more for something you're not going to use that decreases the device's capabilities.  Not a smart trade off to me.

 

[Alperoot]

+1. The battery life is one of the best thing about the Pandora, I am sure it will be for the Pyra, too. (6000 mAh should be enough for 2 GB of RAM.)

 

[Alperoot]

I am so excited to see Pyra videos!

 

[Kev2442]

I do agree about the coming-from-Windows part, and I see your point about the battery.
But as the Pyra is VM-capable, 4GBs could do very well. Android can also make use of it, and Chromium is a memory hog.
Under Linux computing, 2GBs is plenty enough. But 4 would be great for everything gaming-related, be it emulation, PC-to-Pyra ports or VMs.

Let's make a poll !

 

[rygD]

Wow...  Clearly I should still be using my old IBM PC 5150 - and I should take out the AST 6-pack and the 20MB HDD that I'd put in it oh so many years ago.  When I upgraded from my 1200 baud modem to a 2400 then 38400, I was clearly being unfair to those others who had bought the same early hardware.  Now that I'm on a 100Mbit cable connection I should feel particularly guilty?

Since you aren't using your old hardware I will take it off your hands.
 

I do agree about the coming-from-Windows part, and I see your point about the battery.
But as the Pyra is VM-capable, 4GBs could do very well. Android can also make use of it, and Chromium is a memory hog.
Under Linux computing, 2GBs is plenty enough. But 4 would be great for everything gaming-related, be it emulation, PC-to-Pyra ports or VMs.

Let's make a poll !

These are some of my main reasons for being interested in more RAM...well, not chromium, but the others.  I will hold off on the battery thing until we get actual test results of battery life on a prototype.  If Pyra gets better than Pandora battery life then additional RAM is something I would consider if I were the man behind the Pyra, which I am not.  I don't think we would need it, so, while I still might like it in some hypothetical situations (and maxing it out "because we can" ), 2GB is probably the best choice for typical usage and for right now.

Where is the poll?

 

[Grench]

If you don't care about battery life - why stop at 4GB?  Max it out at 8GB.

That would be something entertaining...  The Pyra itself will ship with whatever ED decides it should.  BUT, it would be entertaining if ED wants to make a few to have a Pyra with maximized features - and minimized battery life.  I.e. slap in 8GB RAM, a super high speed maximum sized eMMC, 4G international cell modem and pre-populate it with a pair of 512GB SDXC cards then paint it in real gold leaf and ship it in a Gucci hand bag instead of the wooden coffin box.  OK, so the gold leaf and the Gucci bag are a joke.  BUT - it would be interesting if ED & co sometime after initial Pyra production is off and running were to build one - maybe a year or so from now.  I wonder how badly it would shorten the battery life - both active and standby.

 

[rygD]

If you don't care about battery life - why stop at 4GB?  Max it out at 8GB.

That would be something entertaining...  The Pyra itself will ship with whatever ED decides it should.  BUT, it would be entertaining if ED wants to make a few to have a Pyra with maximized features - and minimized battery life.  I.e. slap in 8GB RAM, a super high speed maximum sized eMMC, 4G international cell modem and pre-populate it with a pair of 512GB SDXC cards then paint it in real gold leaf and ship it in a Gucci hand bag instead of the wooden coffin box.  OK, so the gold leaf and the Gucci bag are a joke.  BUT - it would be interesting if ED & co sometime after initial Pyra production is off and running were to build one - maybe a year or so from now.  I wonder how badly it would shorten the battery life - both active and standby.

I care about battery life, and I guess that other "more RAM" people do as well. Everything is speculation until someone actually tests it in a variety of real world scenarios, so I am choosing not to say "we need less RAM or it will be useless since it will only get x hours on a charge" or "if we get x hours with 2GB we will still get x-y hours with 4 or 8GB, so we should do that".  ED need to hurry up and get us some (nearly) full prototype videos and info.

As I said in my post, and have probably said before, I would want to max out the RAM, but only for my personal unit* (unless battery life would not be reduced "much"), as there is no point in inflicting that on others for the few of us who want to do it with no proven and practical reason. 
 
Instead of gold leaf, how about a full titanium case?  Swap in a durable (Pelican or similar) transport case with custom interior, because we need to put spare batteries somewhere, and you really have my attention.  Too bad I could never justify to myself paying the premium price these would go for.  The Pyra, as it will be, is going to be enough of a stretch  (and I will do something that bugs some here by comparing the price to high end smartphones...I am not the only one that has to be convinced of the value for buying another toy).


*Only if the battery life is still enough for my needs.

 

[Grench]

You don't have to build one to know how much more energy a 4GB configuration would take over a 2GB.  That has already been detailed above.  So, rough guesstimates can be made.  Standby time would go from roughly 2 weeks to roughly 1 week.  'On' time would be shortened by @10-15% or so.  Production/materials costs would likely go up by ~$30 or so.  Retail would go up by ~$50 give or take.

The only real gain in that is a 'spec talk' point for comparing it to your buddy's latest cell phone - which is an inaccurate comparison.

 

[rygD]

10-15% of what?  We won't know until REAL TESTING is done...  15% of 12 hours is fine for me, 15% of 8 hours means I would not want more RAM, and I would need to do everything I could to extend battery life if it is used as the primary method to contact me.

I already stated that there was no proven practical use for additional RAM (we will see in a few years), but comparing specs to someone else's device is not something I do often since my preferences and tastes are so different from those who buy flagship phones.  The main reason I compare specs is to figure out how something will perform for me in a given situation, and the Pyra can't yet be used for those tasks.