3do Emulator Maybe?...

[xinfernoofdantex]

lol, how old is your computer?

 

[Jaguarandine]

On someone's suggestion, I've decided to come up with some reasons on why a 3DO emulator is a good idea. Here they are:

-Psx will not be 100% (btw, this isn't a knock on the Psx4gp2x emu guys; I think they're doing a fantastic job)
The PSX emulator is coming along nicely, however, full speed for many games is in the distant future. Games available on both platforms are more likely to run faster on the 3DO emulator. Which brings up the second point:

-FreeDO port will be close to fullspeed
Due to the 3DO ARM60's code being run natively on the GP2X ARM9, emulation of the sound and video processors will be MUCH easier. Worst case, games will run at close to fullspeed, which isn't bad at all.

-Open doors (or, provides the key at least)
The sucessful development of this emualator will set new highs for 2X programming. Taking the information learned from FreeDO, full speed on systems such as Gameboy Advance and N-Gage (and I suppose Symbian OS as well) sound much more realistic. One might be able to sqeeze more power out for other emus and games by way of the 2nd processor.

-It will cure cancer

-Good Games
This is by far the most important one, I think. Back when the 3DO came out, most of its titles could be ignored because they were either available for other systems (Sega CD, PC, Amiga) you had or they just plain stunk. Nowdays, the bad games still suck ( :lol: , worse even!), but those ports are great for the GP2X. Most of these games came out on systems that are "unemulatable" at the moment and are quite good(e.g.; Policenauts, Syndicate, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, etc.).
Then there are those ports that are better than the games they're based on; Madden, Another World/Out of this World, and Star Control 2 are good examples.
Finally, there's the good original games made just for 3DO like Lucienne's Quest, Immercenary, and Killing Time, amoung others.

So there you have it! The 3DO laid out for what is. I'll be starting a Paypal account for donations toward the developer's GP2X if interest picks up (I've never done this before, so I might need help). Unless someone has an extra 2X lying around, loaning one out doesn't seem like a great idea.

 

[Yono]

Epicenter's last comment kinda killed it for me. I might still donate a few bucks though if this developer is really serious.

 

[icurafu]

To be honest, I'm waiting for the PDA version of the emulator. Since PPC mostly use ARM9, it would be a good indication as to whether a donation would a waste of money or not.

If it works, I'm sure we can raise enough cash for a GP2X. I pledge $40 (Australian) right now. (if ti works well on a 400mhz strongARM PDA)

And the 3DO version of Star Contol 2 has already been ported. It's UrQuan Masteres in the RPG section.

 

[DaveC]

Another chat with FreeDO's developer:

"Some time ago I've created arm60 emulator form xscale cpu which
allows arm3 code to run natively. I see no problem in porting this to
arm920. My idea was to run hw emulator on coprocessor, since it will be
efficient to leave graphics and sound aside from main cpu, now in 3DO main
cpu shares memory with HW, so in some cases it's being held in halt by
other devices. I assume to use minimum ram on 2nd cpu, so preferably
onchip sram should be sufficient for the task. Worst case -- hey, arm60
runs at 12 mhz only!!! Code on arm920 in native mode will run 20 times
faster!!!
But once again-- I have no time to message arround the gp2x community
for this. If someone will come up with gp2x console and contact me-- I
will invest my time to port the emulator.
Do you want to make administrative tasks for this? Also I prefer to
meet in person so I will be able to return the console latter on, thus
florida is preffered."

Well it is obvious that he really doesn't understand the 2nd cores limitations

"I assume to use minimum ram on 2nd cpu, so preferably
onchip sram should be sufficient for the task"

He thinks the second core has it'own RAM. It doesn't and 4K isn't nearly enough to emulate 2 cel engine co-processors.

 

[Jaguarandine]

Yono: What would you need to know he's serious?

icurafu: Were'd you hear about a PPC version of FreeDO? About Star Control 2, I haven't checked out the port in a while; but heard that it was missing some features.

DaveC: Here's mainly what I told him about the specs originally. Maybe it wasn't enough?

-the 2nd ARM processor (940t) is not recognized by
Linux. You'll have to program it completely in ARM
assembly. We assumed you'd have exeprience in ASM
though as you built the emulator from the ground up.

-Both ARM processors cannot access the RAM at the same
time, which slows things down considerably, unless you
can get get them to work togther effectively. Most
programming done up to this point only uses the main
ARM processor (920t).

-Finally, most agree that in order to free up CPU time
to emulate the sound and video processors, you'll have
to get the 3DO's ARM60 intructions to run natively (or
close to it) from one of the GP2X's ARM9s. Which would
of course, require much assembly knowledge.

 

[icurafu]

icurafu: Were'd you hear about a PPC version of FreeDO? About Star Control 2, I haven't checked out the port in a while; but heard that it was missing some features.

What? You never even checked the webpage, and you're trying to get funding for a port? My dodgy senses are tingling.

http://www.freedo.org/HTML/project_status.html

PocketPC alpha in development

 

[Jaguarandine]

icurafu: Were'd you hear about a PPC version of FreeDO? About Star Control 2, I haven't checked out the port in a while; but heard that it was missing some features.

What? You never even checked the webpage, and you're trying to get funding for a port? My dodgy senses are tingling.

http://www.freedo.org/HTML/project_status.html

PocketPC alpha in development

nice, I must've missed that

 

[DaveC]

DaveC: Here's mainly what I told him about the specs originally. Maybe it wasn't enough?

-the 2nd ARM processor (940t) is not recognized by
Linux. You'll have to program it completely in ARM
assembly. We assumed you'd have exeprience in ASM
though as you built the emulator from the ground up.

-Both ARM processors cannot access the RAM at the same
time, which slows things down considerably, unless you
can get get them to work togther effectively. Most
programming done up to this point only uses the main
ARM processor (920t).

-Finally, most agree that in order to free up CPU time
to emulate the sound and video processors, you'll have
to get the 3DO's ARM60 intructions to run natively (or
close to it) from one of the GP2X's ARM9s. Which would
of course, require much assembly knowledge.

Not enough. You need to let him know that the second core only has 4K of cache, has no MMU, and does not have any dedicated RAM to that core (all RAM is shared).

You touched on the last part about the shared RAM but not the cache size and lack of MMU.

 

[Jaguarandine]

Here's his response. Shortened to pertinent info

>What do you mean by administrative tasks?
>
>
By administrative tasks i mean real project management -- i will make
the port but
i need help to handle community support.
> A couple GP2X developers thought I left out some
> important info on the specs.
> -Namely, the 940t has only an 8k cache; 4k for
> data/intructions respectively. It has no MMU, only a
> simple TLB. The 920t however, has a 32k cache and an
> MMU.
> -Theres a seperate video processor that might be able
> to do simple math operations. Normally, it's used for
> decoding MPEG4 in video playback.
> -Lastly, all RAM is shared. I think you touched on
> this in your previous response though.
>
>
I know this. I'm planing to use video coprocessor as pixel processor of
3do
> Finally, someone noticed that you're still working on
> a PocketPC version (aside from the Palm, PS2, Xbox,
> and Mac versions that I've heard about). Has there
> been any trouble getting this to work? As some believe
> a port to PPC would be a good indication if the GP2X
> version would work as well.
>
>
Well -- pocketpc version is done. I'm using it on my iMate JAM. and it
works just fine.
I'm not planning to release it to public due to lack of good controls
(namely joypad).
I was planning to make external 3do joypad adapter for pocketpc... but
majority of them don't have any external connection besides USB
lately....
and it's not directly accessible under windows ce.

PS2 and XBOX versions are not released due to political/legal issues.

and PALM just moved to windows ce

-----

So I guess the question it comes down to is can we trust him to stick to his word. I talked with him a bit and he seems like a stand up guy. I did a little searching on the other versions planned and the response seems like a reasonable explanation for why they haven't been released (which was a sticky point on some other sites).

DaveC, I see your pessimism extends to devices other than the GP2X from my google search. Do you have a Palm-based PDA? I've got a Blackberry myself.

 

[NoidZ]

http://will20970.tripod.com/ :: Some good screenshots

 

[Yono]

I'm not sure where the developer lives, but you might want to talk to ED or Craigix about sending him a GP2x. That would solve the donation problem, and they're nice enough guys. I believe that ED has sent a unit to the developer of Zelda Classic for a port, so he might be willing.

 

[nubie]

I may have been a little overzealous with my first post, but surely GP2X could get good emulation going for a system that is around 1-2 steps below the PSX in power (and not much more complex).

It is not a matter of "power" as much as it is custom hardware that is poorly documented. The SNES is weaker than the 3DO and look at the trouble the GP2X has with that. Those twin cel engines in the 3DO would be a bitch to emulate at any decent speed.

I suppose it my be poorly documented, but at least this person has actually made a fast and compatible emulator for it.

This is a good question.
Here's another one: How does the video processing hardware on SoC work? Could it help with FMV or other video?

In general it might be best to figure things out first like Winterkid's questions, and then show the developers what they have to work with. That way no one has to waste any time or effort if it's not possible.

It's very specifically tuned for MPEG decoding; perhaps only MPEG-4. MagicEyes (maker of the MMSP2 SoC) has a real MPEG-4 fixation. (And then some.) To be honest, and not to sound like a wet blanket, but this project is probably impossible to get away with at acceptable speed. The hardware's not that well understood and is just out of the league of the GP2X with all the overhead entailed by handling its strange mix of hardware.

ORLY? (sorry I don't got the link to the owl ). I am sure that it is hardware ENCODE and DECODE on mpeg4 and just does huge amounts of math work as the 940t interprets the data and spits out frames also it is hardware Mpeg2.

I won't bother to link to the pdf here because my sig has a link to the MMSP2 site and there is a link to it there. I don't know if this guy is skilled enough to use the processor either, but if a distributor sent him a GP2X at their cost it would be the cheapest.

Epicenter's last comment kinda killed it for me. I might still donate a few bucks though if this developer is really serious.

I don't see why that would "kill" it for you, afaik the video is just a high-speed "video-compression" type-maths monster that can do Divx and Xvid in real-time at full FPS and resolution.

 

[Hodr]

I know its a bit late to add my $0.02, but I bought the 3DO when it first came out for $650 and I never regretted it for 3 reasons.

1) Star Control II with full audio
2) The best version of street fighter I ever played on a home console
3) Way of the Warrior (come on, kickin ass and listenin to white zombie..)

Honorable mentions include:
Captain Quazar
Return Fire
Deadalus Encounter (Tia Carrera...)
Plumbers Don't Wear Ties

 

[nubie]

I know its a bit late to add my $0.02, but I bought the 3DO when it first came out for $650 and I never regretted it for 3 reasons.

1) Star Control II with full audio
2) The best version of street fighter I ever played on a home console
3) Way of the Warrior (come on, kickin ass and listenin to white zombie..)

Honorable mentions include:
Captain Quazar
Return Fire
Deadalus Encounter (Tia Carrera...)
Plumbers Don't Wear Ties

Yeah, I noticed that in screen cap for that guy's emu and hit IMDB up for it with a google. Pretty cool.

 

[icurafu]

Let me see a movie file of it running smooth with sound on a PDA and I'll donate. And I'm sure many others will.

But by looking at its current performance on a PC, I doubt that has happened.

 

[Jaguarandine]

icurafu: I don't think current PC performance is indictive of how the emulator would run on PPC or GP2X (in fact I'd expect it run better with proper beta testing). Fair enough. I'll ask him if he can put something up on youtube or something.

Btw, I encourage everyone to voice their opinion in this discussion. Different viewpoints are welcome!

 

[Jaguarandine]

"Hi,


> Hey,
> I just heard back from some people on your reply.
> Some of the skeptics are looking for proof of the PPC
> port; preferrably in the form of a video with sound.
> Nothing fancy, just something that could be put up on
> youtube or something similiar.
>
>
I can definitely do that.
> Also, is there a DC version still? The system has been
> abandoned by Sega AFAIK, so there should be no legal
> issues.
>
>
DC version is on hold -- my dc stopped to read cds and i have no time
to
fix/replace it."

 

[ste_167]

You say that he's stopped work on the Dreamcast version? I wonder why considering that it was meant to be at this stage in development:

Over at the forum, he said every game is supported and every game works at full speed, plus it has VMU support with saves and tools, and a menu for games. He also mention that only 2 games doesnt work at the moment, i think it was twisted and blade force, they work, but it has some type of error in those games, but other then that, everything else works.

His reason for not completing it seems a little odd...

They're not too happy

 

[Jaguarandine]

Interesting find ste_167. I thought I found most threads concerning this. I posted on the DCEmu thread and directed people here, so we may see some fireworks pretty soon...

Edit: Oh yeah, the link to the DC thread is here. No responses yet.