3d Accelerated X

[AireTamStorm]

Ok, we know that Pandora will have a PowerVR SGX in it, do we know if it will end up with an X driver?

Considering that X will (perhaps) run on the device, AND the PowerVR is capable of handling the 800x480 res (I doubt it'll have problems) I think a trimmed-down version of Compiz is very feasible.

Thoughts?

 

[Holokauston]

Most likely it's possible but would you really want to choke your Pandora with useless eyecandy? since even a normal system has problems with performance loss using 3D desktop effects Pandora would most likely suffer even more.

Just a thought.

 

[squeakypants]

Well, if it can run two unoptimized SNES emus at full speed (as I've heard), can it run one unoptimized one while running Compiz?

 

[Chip]

If you absolutely need to run some resource-intensive GUI like Fusion, then yes. You probably can. I'm sure somebody will port it (and other similar UIs) eventually, if only to prove it can be done. I can pretty much guarantee that nothing that demanding will ship with Pandora, but you can always install it yourself once it's available.

I can also pretty much guarantee that it will bog down the performance of anything else you run to the extent that you will uninstall it shortly thereafter.

 

[Wegg]

When Windows95 first came out we used to run it on 90mhz Pentium's with 32mb of ram. And. . . we thought we were kings! I don't understand how/why a simple windowed GUI would be that resource intensive considering the Pandora's specs.

I would love to be listening to music, emailing friends, chatting on IRC and browsing the web at the same time. SOME kind of windowed interface would make that multitasking easier. No?

 

[PokeParadox]

my EEEPC with Ubuntu runs Compiz Fusion no problems (same screen resolution) I don't think the memory overhead for the extra eye-candy is too significant. I got my memory footprint down fairly low... I think that it should be possible if there is enough system memory left over in the custom linux distro at least from a 3D processing perspective.

 

[javaJake]

Some effects are bigger hogs than others, too. Let's not forget that Compiz is very configurable (thanks to the amazing work of the Beryl folks pre-merge AFAIK).

 

[Dutch_Cap]

Wouldn't it make sense to draw windows with the 3d hardware, to spare the CPU and thus the batteries? Most/all of the useless effects could be turned off.

 

[Holokauston]

When Windows95 first came out we used to run it on 90mhz Pentium's with 32mb of ram. And. . . we thought we were kings! I don't understand how/why a simple windowed GUI would be that resource intensive considering the Pandora's specs.

I would love to be listening to music, emailing friends, chatting on IRC and browsing the web at the same time. SOME kind of windowed interface would make that multitasking easier. No?

The question wasn't about a windowed GUI but a 3D acc. one that can have 3D effects much like the new generation of desktop systems have.



And ofc it would be able to run with some features and still have a fairly low footprint but my comp for ex. running
Ubuntu 7.10 on a AMD64 X2 dual core 4400+, 2GB DDR2 RAM and a 512MB nVIDIA 8600GT, sure it can handle Compiz without fail and lots of apps can be used without me noticing any loss but running any 3D game where FPS matter at all I turn it of, specially for ex. WoW, Guild Wars and DDO running on wine since they suffer the most, also Mupen64 (N64 emulator) takes a heavy loss if I still have 3D effects on and I notice some difference when playing games like Savage 2 that are native.

Imagine then Pandoras loss since the Pandora system doesn't have nearly the same resources to draw from with RAM being shared etc. sure you might be able to run a SNES emulator without any noticeable loss but not much more than that. Also what effects would you want? (just curious) I'll admit that a "3D" menu McOS style and a zoom/scale out windows would be nice but question is if the trade off is worth it.

 

[argor]

Mupen64 (N64 emulator) takes a heavy loss if I still have 3D effects on




i notice no difference have 3D effects on when i am running Mupen64
are you maybe using Mupen64 0.5 instead of new and lot improve Mupen64Plus v1.3

 

[cb88]

So which is better...

a 2d accerated gui + an afterthought 3d gui that is unsupported

or... a 3d gui that can be tuned to the users taste and IS supported and falls back to a 2d gui (compiz does that own its own)


I mean your not going to be running this gui while playing the more intensive games fullscreen anyway


Im not even sure that compiz already has an Arm port does it? would be pretty sweet to see a a handheld blow away the the graphics of every vista computer on the market...

also it would be pretty important that compiz shut down when a game starts since i have indeed had issues with it while running things fullscreen (In the past it would hang or the game would be transparent) im pretty sure those issuse have been worked on though.

If aiglx is enabled then the 3d windows would be rendered to a framebuffer then copied as a texture to a 3d object onscreen IIRC so there should not be too much overhead there.

Oh btw im running compiz on Debian etch with a Geforce 2 mx 400 which as far as i can tell the powervr gpu far outclasses
800 Textels/sec vs 1200 on the powervr .... or do i misunderstand Textel?

 

[Blah]

Well I see no use for a 3D GUI, but transparency and acceleration are good things, especially with a screen of that size and resolution.

 

[dabomb3627]

you could have scripting to only have 3d effects turned on when in browsing mode etc and turn it off before starting games. i had to do it on my linux build for a while when i only had integrated graphics.

 

[AireTamStorm]

People are talking about using window managers on this. Like I said, trimmed down version of compiz. The transparency, perhaps cube, and certain fade-in effects. Stuff like motion blur? Aint happening!

What I really want to know is, are we (using X as a primary rendering platform, or are we going straight for the framebuffer? X altogether could be seen as unnecessary overhead, but we gain the support of countless applications simply through a recompile that way. (Not saying everything would work)

 

[PokeParadox]

When Windows95 first came out we used to run it on 90mhz Pentium's with 32mb of ram. And. . . we thought we were kings! I don't understand how/why a simple windowed GUI would be that resource intensive considering the Pandora's specs.

I would love to be listening to music, emailing friends, chatting on IRC and browsing the web at the same time. SOME kind of windowed interface would make that multitasking easier. No?

The question wasn't about a windowed GUI but a 3D acc. one that can have 3D effects much like the new generation of desktop systems have.



And ofc it would be able to run with some features and still have a fairly low footprint but my comp for ex. running
Ubuntu 7.10 on a AMD64 X2 dual core 4400+, 2GB DDR2 RAM and a 512MB nVIDIA 8600GT, sure it can handle Compiz without fail and lots of apps can be used without me noticing any loss but running any 3D game where FPS matter at all I turn it of, specially for ex. WoW, Guild Wars and DDO running on wine since they suffer the most, also Mupen64 (N64 emulator) takes a heavy loss if I still have 3D effects on and I notice some difference when playing games like Savage 2 that are native.

Imagine then Pandoras loss since the Pandora system doesn't have nearly the same resources to draw from with RAM being shared etc. sure you might be able to run a SNES emulator without any noticeable loss but not much more than that. Also what effects would you want? (just curious) I'll admit that a "3D" menu McOS style and a zoom/scale out windows would be nice but question is if the trade off is worth it.


Yes Compiz can interfere with a 3D app, that's why it makes sense to disable it when running anything that needs to use HW acceleration. I can get away with not disabling it for many games, but I still have a toggle icon called "CompizSwitch".
Since the Pandora is having a tailored version of linux for it, I'm sure that much of the desktop bloat will be removed and IF it is decided that 3D effects should be included, the sensible thing would have the OS disable it when 3D acceleration is requested by an application, failing back to standard windowing.

Also Compiz is not just about the fancy effects. On my laptop and my EEEpc, I find it very usefuly, grouping like applications on each desktop on my 3D Cube. aMSN, Pidgin and Skype desk 1, Browser windows desk 2, programming stuff desk 3, virtualBox desk 4, etc. Yes you can do this without Compiz, but the Cube (with some transparency) lets you see where your windows are and switch to them quickly.

 

[Holokauston]

I agree that there are useful functions with compiz, I love the cube and the functions that work like MacOS for ex zooming out seeing all the windows active on that desktop is really nice etc.

and you can turn it off sure but I'm still a bit skeptical, I agree that Pandora is a good machine but I'm not entirely convinced that compiz functions wouldn't slow it down more noticeable that people think, but hey I could be wrong and even if I'm not it would be a fun thing to try

 

[AireTamStorm]

I suppose a better question is "is it worthwhile"? It certainly seems doable.

 

[teggun]

seems a bit pointless really...

 

[Vorporeal]

I seem to remember that, at some point, Craig himself expressed interest in running Compiz on the Pandora...

It wouldn't be very useful, sure, but it would be some great eye candy to show to your friends

 

[sindbad]

Window transparency, Expo for viewing multiple desktops and zoom would be very very useful.

I don't see why it couldn't handle compiz, since my fx5200 works great with it.