Windows 3.1X On Pandora

[darkborn]

This is branch & reaction to this topic: The Pandora can not run Windows (or WINE) (Information for new visitors.) which is itended for noobs that think that it could run Win 9x/XP & apps at Pandora. IT WOULD NOT.
EDIT: JUST TO BE SURE: WIN 3.1X ARE POSSIBLE EMULATED RETRO SYSTEM; IT IS NOT POSSIBLE (OR IS INTENDED) TO REPLACE MAIN PANDORA OS WITH.
This topic has nothing with it; however:

I know this is highly pedantic but i'm fairly certain Windows 3.1 is possible via Dosbox. It's not what people are after, granted, but it's still Windows.

Pedantic is the opposite of the purpose of this thread. Windows 3.1 is not useful in any way for what people want to do.
The idea is that this is a reasonably good summary of the state of play, not a nitpick into all the little details of what is and isn't possible.
Yes Win 1.x-3.x might run, yes 95 may even run slowly, yes QEmu+Wine may let you run a small Windows program or two...
But none of these are *practical*, none of these actually give the result that Joe Bloggs would be expecting if you tell him its possible.
Bottom line is, Windows and Windows apps don't and won't run - all the other if's and maybe's are for the technically inclined of us and not the target of this thread.
I made it simple and polite so as not to alienate new users.

I have to react because statement as "Windows 3.1 is not useful in any way for what people want to do." from above, simply is not true.
If I want to emulate C64 or Amiga, why shouldn't I Windows 3.11? It is not enough retro/abandoned? I don't think so.
There are no games? I remember plenty of nice little games, e.g. some freeware version of Risk. Or pinballs. And card games: 32-bit(!) Hearts, solitaires. Free Klik'nPlay: you can make your games into. Here are links (from this forum).
Speed, hardware requirements? I think it will work, but more about it later (below).
Styling? For a start, look at here. Image is dithered to 256 colors just because of animated GIF. Here is JPG version. OK, about Calmira later.
If you can mimic XP or Vista, you can also e.g. Android, Maemo, or some Linux distro.
Let's talk about usability & speed:

Computer: 100% IBM Compatible
Processor: 386 or higher processor
Memory: 3MB + RAM
Drives: 14MB Hard disk drive space*
3.5" / 5.25"Floppy
Video: VGA
Controls: keyboard / Mouse
operating system: DOS 3.3 and Higher

*I got bootable/portable RAMdisk-only Win3.11 version fitted at 1 3,5' floppy (1,44 Mb), (together with DOS&tools). It means that it could be tweaked much more for size - if needed, but for speed too (there were tweekers).
Standard Windows graphic driver was 800x600, 256 colors.
There was many other drivers (e.g. Nvidia, Matrox) supporting <1600x1200, 256/65K/16.7M colors. "High-colors modes" required 4-8 Mb of RAM. (BTW speed decreased with more then 64K colors and above 800x600 resolution).
Win3.1x Wiki
What is not much known is possible support of FAT32, Long file names, and (limited) 32-bit windows application support (through "Win32s"). Some soft could be seen here, 32-bit (Win 9x) here. E.g. I remember run 32-bit Xara (v1.2?), Paint Shop Pro (3.12?) & Photoshop 4 without problem.
But, best part IMHO is Calmira: With Calmira ("shell", GUI for Windows 3.x) you can mimic Windows 9x/XP/Vista. Here are screenshots (of different quality).
http://calmira.net/ Wiki CalmiraXP, Longhorn (Vista). System Requirements

Operating System: DOS 6.* (or compatible) with Microsoft Windows 3.1(1) (for Workgroups)
Processor: 80386
Memory: 4 Mb
Hard Drive: About 2 Mb of free space
A mouse
Your videocard must be capable of showing more than 32000 colors.
DOSLFN-driver for long filename support (in Calmira XP 4.0)

As I remember, I got extremely overclocked DX4 to 133MHz, and I had 32MB RAM. It was enough for Windows 95, but speedlight for Windows 3.11. But I played my MP3 at old comp 486DX2 at - 66MHz (later overclocked to 80MHz)! At Windows 3.11. 16MB RAM.
Here is quote from "Windows 3.1x tuning page":
There are supposed to be people who get an older computer with DOS 6.x and Windows 3.1x on it and try to iron Windows 95 or even 98 over it. This is not a good idea at all, unless your motto is "May the hourglass be with you!". (The only exception would be a really well equipped (486) DX/4 or Pentium system with 24 MB or better 32 MB of RAM, a hard disk of at least 1 or 2 GB, and quite a good VL or PCI graphics card.)
Another side note: The combination of DOS and WfW 3.11 seems to be quite popular as a second system with Linux people - no wonder, as DOS doesn't need many resources, and with WfW 3.11 it's not much different, and there's still lots of software.

And what x86 hardware is supposed to be supported by DOSBox atPandora?

According to Pickle (and Notaz) here,
"well I've got it running, it's working with all 3 cores. Only tried duke1 and original wolf3d, duke seems to be fullspeed with all cores,wolf3d has stuttering sound during gameplay even with dynamic one @ 500MHz (other settings are left default). It is almost fullspeed @600MHz and 2000 cycles, with occasional hiccups."
"Confirmed it is indeed SB+Adlib sound running in wolf3d."
500MHz is more then enough for Win 3.11.

 

[borgqueenx]

windows 3.1 emulator would be awesome, playing games like red alert for windows, not just a dos version

Windows 95 works a little bit on the psp, so windows 95 and 3.1 should run easly on the pandora.

 

[zaoin]

I used Calmira a lot until 2001 when my 486 33mhz died.

 

[ashdjones]

I actually ran Windows 3.1 quite happily on my 286 for many years! 3.0 even runs on a 186, although somewhat slowly!

What's also worth pointing out is that the same apps willl run unmodified on your XP machine! You certainly can't do that with other emulators. I'm quite partial to good old fashioned Paintbrush myself, plus I came across a free voice synth program which is far better than the one built into XP - it rivals Apple's in my opinion (and it runs in Dosbox)!

 

[darkborn]

I actually ran Windows 3.1 quite happily on my 286 for many years! 3.0 even runs on a 186, although somewhat slowly!

The best part is booting: at 486 it is almost instantly (from DOS); at 386 it is just a few seconds!

I came across a free voice synth program which is far better than the one built into XP - it rivals Apple's in my opinion (and it runs in Dosbox)!

I'm interested... what is it?
I remember "HELP Read™: the Freeware Reader Project" which is great; you can make your own animation of reading head, and modulate voice... I made evil H. P. Lovecraft animation, with demon voice, reading his own ebooks!
Here is info, and here is working page through The Archive (original Hawaii Education Literacy Project site is down, new site seems that does not have "abandonware" )

 

[Exophase]

Unlike C64 or Amiga "Windows 3.11" is not a hardware platform. I'm sure you'll be able to emulate it, but (approximately) what kind of computer you're emulating underneath is an entirely different story.

I THINK DOSBox can run Windows 3.11. Which is your best bet, but still wouldn't give much better than 386-ish speeds right now. If that's enough for what you want to run on Windows 3.11 then great. However it occurs to me that most games that people wanted to play from that era were made for DOS because of the performance advantage you got in hitting the hardware more directly. Sure it's good for more "casual" games like card games and Risk, but don't you think you could find more modern adaptations of these games that you can compile natively for Pandora?

And why would you want to use a fancy shell in Windows 3.11? If you just want a nice way to run programs I'm sure there'll be better native shells for Pandora. And in general, Wine over QEMU would probably have much higher compatibility with Windows applications than Windows 3.11 over DOSEmu. Seems like if someone had to spend energy on something it should be the latter, although maybe the former will be more likely to work out of the box.

 

[valhalla]

Pedantic is the opposite of the purpose of this thread. Windows 3.1 is not useful in any way for what people want to do.

I have to react because statement as "Windows 3.1 is not useful in any way for what people want to do." from above, simply is not true.

I believe that what PhonicUK meant was that Windows 3.1 is not useful for what people who ask for windows on pandora want to do: it's not going to let you play WoW, MS Office or any other windows game from this millenium, and that's what the other topic talked about.

Of course running windows 3.1 for retrocomputing is another matter, and probably worth attempting, since it looks like it could be moderately easy, even if most of the PC games from that age were for plain dos.

 

[Monk]

According to Pickle (and Notaz) here,
"well I've got it running, it's working with all 3 cores. Only tried duke1 and original wolf3d, duke seems to be fullspeed with all cores,wolf3d has stuttering sound during gameplay even with dynamic one @ 500MHz (other settings are left default). It is almost fullspeed @600MHz and 2000 cycles, with occasional hiccups."
"Confirmed it is indeed SB+Adlib sound running in wolf3d."
500MHz is more then enough for Win 3.11.

There's more than a chunk tha tI agree with there, but the "500MHz" comment is a bit of a ticklish point - the emulated PC isn't performing at 500MHz - far from it. I haven't seen any benchmarks to give anything like an accurate idea of a clock rate because of the way that DOSBox works, but the 500MHz is the speed of Pandora's native CPU - so you can figure that the 386 would be effectively running at or below 50MHz just as a general rule-of-thumb (based on rough-and-ready observations on this board).

If you're expecting Pandora to be able to emulate a 386 based PC running at an effective 500MHz, I think you're going to be dissapointed

For retro Win3.x games, I quite liked the Microsoft Arcade games myself (indeed, I have a couple of MS Arcade game packs and still play them under Win XP).

 

[darkborn]

Unlike C64 or Amiga "Windows 3.11" is not a hardware platform.

Even if it is true, so what? I'm missing the point. Win3.11 is just a fancy GUI upon DOS, which is... represent of x86 hardware platform.

I THINK DOSBox can run Windows 3.11. Which is your best bet, but still wouldn't give much better than 386-ish speeds right now.

Don't think so. 500mhz is PII, not 386. However, you should know that "monster apps" like CorelDraw, Photoshop4, Truespace, Ms Office... worked fine at 386 - but at Win3.11. Because, Win3.11 are up to 20x faster then all other Windows bloatware that came later from Redmond. It was just, as I said, sofisticated GUI over DOS.

Sure it's good for more "casual" games like card games and Risk, but don't you think you could find more modern adaptations of these games that you can compile natively for Pandora?

Still don't get it. Of course that I won't run DOSBox&Win3.11 to play Solitaire if I got it ... e.g. KSolitaire (at KDE) by initializing system. But still missing the point: why not? There is C64 emu at Amiga, so we should burn-out Vice just because we have UAE? Fun is that you CAN emulate and make some fun. It is matter of free choice (it means freedom). There is 822 16-bit windows games (just games, not apps!) mentioned at Mobygames (here). So, you suggest that whole bunch of apps/games for Win 3.11 should be compiled, or substituted with some alternatives? Do we all should be L7?

And why would you want to use a fancy shell in Windows 3.11?

I really don't get it. How about... It is fun? Or because, it is sometimes easier to use stylus then keyboard? Or, why are people using KDE/Gnome/etc when they got Bash?

If you just want a nice way to run programs I'm sure there'll be better native shells for Pandora.

For 16-bit windoze apps? Doubt so. Nope. Calmira is THE best.

And in general, Wine over QEMU would probably have much higher compatibility with Windows applications than Windows 3.11 over DOSEmu.

It is true, just... 1. There is no proper Wine/QEMU port for Pandora; 2. performance will be 20-50% of DOSBox & Win3.11 above. At least, you could be original and said: Why not ReactOS (instead Win3.1x)? (www.reactos.org) Hmmm... it is a good question.

Seems like if someone had to spend energy on something it should be the latter, although maybe the former will be more likely to work out of the box.

I'm really not sure about your energy problems, nor what are your experiences when you expect that something will work out of the box. So I'll share you what I know: It is much quicker & simpler to install Win3.1x (&Calmira) over DOS(Box) then make proper conf (ini) file for DOSBox (@Linux). Unfortunately, there is no D-Fend shell or so for DOSBox @Linux.

 

[gruso]

Ok, let's go ahead and say we've got the "why" covered. Next question is the "how". Do you have anything in the pipeline? Is this a request? Or just a debate?

 

[Archaemic]

Windows 95 works a little bit on the psp, so windows 95 and 3.1 should run easly on the pandora.

Generally this is done with Bochs, not DOSBox, so it might be a completely different story.

 

[darkborn]

Ok, let's go ahead and say we've got the "why" covered. Next question is the "how". Do you have anything in the pipeline? Is this a request? Or just a debate?

"How" is not a question here. Simple: if DOSBox works at ARM (specifically at Pandora), Win 3.11 will probably do. No magic, no problems.
Make virtual partition/path for DOSBox (as always), start Win3.x setup and - voila - you'll finish it in a few minutes. It is not Win9x etc bloatware.

However, there could be performance tweaking at 3. levels:
1. DOSBox performance at all - to optimize it at low level so it get all power from Pandora hardware; (it is not question of Windows 3.11)
2. to optimize DOS configuration (e.g. autoexec.bat, config.sys, virtual drivers - and DOSBox substitutes) - it is like tweaking every other OS. But, in general, it works. IMHO, it is easier to make enviroment settings at DOSBox then "real" DOS. (Again, it is not matter of Windows3.11)
3. Optimize Windows 3.11. This should not be a problem, if you don't need something obscure. RAM Memory size problems, and I/O HDD problems (related to speed) are problems of abandoned hardware, not Pandora. It is not problem to give 32MB RAM to Win, or make RAM disk so that Windows work faster.

Again, do not expect that you will run most of Windows 9x/XP apps, or ANY of DirectX games. There are 30-100 32-bit apps (&games) that could work, and that's it.
OK, maybe I should mention here:
Windows 3.11 (aka Windows for Workgroups, or WfWG 3.11) is unsupported abandonware from last millennium. However, it is proprietary software, and if you don't have a legal copy of it, and you are planning to install it, you should consider that you are probably breaking law. You can buy it at e-bay or at special (abandonware) shops. Just, you have to know that with original WfW 3.11 you got "certificate of authentication" with hologram-sticker and MS/windows logo on it.

 

[darkborn]

Pedantic is the opposite of the purpose of this thread. Windows 3.1 is not useful in any way for what people want to do.

I have to react because statement as "Windows 3.1 is not useful in any way for what people want to do." from above, simply is not true.

I believe that what PhonicUK meant was that Windows 3.1 is not useful for what people who ask for windows on pandora want to do: it's not going to let you play WoW, MS Office or any other windows game from this millenium, and that's what the other topic talked about.

You don't have to believe: just read 1st line of this topic: "The Pandora can not run Windows (or WINE) (Information for new visitors.) which is itended for noobs that think that it could run Win XP & apps at Pandora."
On the other hand, MS Office is bad example because it works at WFW 3.11 @386, but NOT exactly a version people expects. At least, there was AbiWord (or so) which could be usable, but this is too much freaky: we will probably got proper OpenOffice at Angstrom (or Ubuntu) Pandora, and/or AbiWord etc. So... forget it. DirectX & other Windows games from this millenium? Just forget about it.

Of course running windows 3.1 for retrocomputing is another matter, and probably worth attempting, since it looks like it could be moderately easy, even if most of the PC games from that age were for plain dos.

Yep, exactly as you said. Agree 100%.

 

[gruso]

Ok, let's go ahead and say we've got the "why" covered. Next question is the "how". Do you have anything in the pipeline? Is this a request? Or just a debate?

"How" is not a question here.

Ok, so it's just debate. No worries.

 

[darkborn]

(...) but the "500MHz" comment is a bit of a ticklish point - the emulated PC isn't performing at 500MHz - far from it. I haven't seen any benchmarks to give anything like an accurate idea of a clock rate because of the way that DOSBox works, but the 500MHz is the speed of Pandora's native CPU

and how about overclocking? I'll quote source again: "It is almost fullspeed @600MHz and 2000 cycles, with occasional hiccups."

If you're expecting Pandora to be able to emulate a 386 based PC running at an effective 500MHz, I think you're going to be dissapointed

I NEVER EXPECTED 500MHZ. Omg, you will run Windows 98 at 500MHz... it is not theoretically possible.
I have to quote myself (again):
"500MHz is more then enough for Win 3.11." and "I played my MP3 at old comp 486DX2 at - 66MHz (later overclocked to 80MHz)! At Windows 3.11. 16MB RAM."
Conclusion: 386@100mhz emulation - all what you need for WfW3.11/WfW games & apps.

Beside,
Does anybody know for a 386 PC at 500MHz??? :blink: :lol:

For retro Win3.x games, I quite liked the Microsoft Arcade games myself (indeed, I have a couple of MS Arcade game packs and still play them under Win XP)

This is what I'm talking about! There were many little games, mostly logic or so. I remember few really great Pac-man clones for example ("Virus", anybody remember this?). And so...

 

[darkborn]

Ok, so it's just debate. No worries.

Oh, I didn't get it at first. Sure it is just debate.

 

[Monk]

and how about overclocking? I'll quote source again: "It is almost fullspeed @600MHz and 2000 cycles, with occasional hiccups."

It should, perhaps, be noted that the "it" in this quote is Wolf3D, a DOS game and that 2000 cycles is very slow. Really. Very. Slow. And Pickle had to overclock a Pandora devboard to achieve 2000 cycles for Wolf3D.

If you're expecting Pandora to be able to emulate a 386 based PC running at an effective 500MHz, I think you're going to be dissapointed

I NEVER EXPECTED 500MHZ. Omg, you will run Windows 98 at 500MHz... it is not theoretically possible.
I have to quote myself (again):
"500MHz is more then enough for Win 3.11." and "I played my MP3 at old comp 486DX2 at - 66MHz (later overclocked to 80MHz)! At Windows 3.11. 16MB RAM."
Conclusion: 386@100mhz emulation - all what you need for WfW3.11/WfW games & apps.

Really - you think DOSBox will give you 386 at 100MHz type performance?

Beside,
Does anybody know for a 386 PC at 500MHz???

Since most if not all Intel processors in recent years are direct decendants of the 386 CPU - yes. What's your point? Mine is that mentioning 500MHz in the same line as 66MHz and 80MHz looks like you think you will be getting higher speeds than you will. Your mentioning 100MHz instead does not disabuse me of this impression.

For retro Win3.x games, I quite liked the Microsoft Arcade games myself (indeed, I have a couple of MS Arcade game packs and still play them under Win XP)

This is what I'm talking about! There were many little games, mostly logic or so. I remember few really great Pac-man clones for example ("Virus", anybody remember this?). And so...

Virus? Yeah IIRC that was the PC version of the program used to launch the Acorn Archimedes. Lander being the demi-disabled demo version... can't recall the current status of the game, might have been released as freeware like versions of Elite have or might not. But the point we agree on is that Windows is a platform (albiet a micture of hardware and software) that is as "worthy" of emulation as any other old system... where we APPEAR to disagree is to what degree Pandora can usefully "run" Windows. I agree with your theory that DOSBox should be able to execute Windows code - but based on what little benchmark data we have I think "run" would be the wrong term to use. "Walk" or even "Crawl" might be closer. DOSBox is excruciatingly slow on the Pandora, we're lead to believe, and if that's the case then Windows is going to be far from blazing

 

[darkborn]

Virus? Yeah IIRC that was the PC version of the program used to launch the Acorn Archimedes. Lander being the demi-disabled demo version... can't recall the current status of the game, might have been released as freeware like versions of Elite have or might not.

You are talking about Virus of David Braben, co-author of Elite. I'm talking about some funny Windows 16-bit maze game, as Pacman clone. Nevermind.
EDIT: I finally found "VIRUS: The Game" by DynoTech Software, 1995.
"Retro Arcade Game: You are "Vinny the Virus" inside a computer. Control the hard drive while avoiding the anti-virus disk.
Requires: 386 or faster CPU; 4MB RAM; Windows 3x, Windows 9x, or OS/2 Warp; 256 Color VGA; Mouse or Joystick; Sound Card (optional, but recommended)."
Vinny the Virus here :lol:, mini-screenshot here, download here (works at Wine, ReactOS, Windows XP...). Game resolution is 640x480, required 8ox86(!) processor, minimum 80386, 20 MHz.

But the point we agree on is that Windows is a platform (albiet a micture of hardware and software) that is as "worthy" of emulation as any other old system... where we APPEAR to disagree is to what degree Pandora can usefully "run" Windows. I agree with your theory that DOSBox should be able to execute Windows code - but based on what little benchmark data we have I think "run" would be the wrong term to use. "Walk" or even "Crawl" might be closer. DOSBox is excruciatingly slow on the Pandora, we're lead to believe, and if that's the case then Windows is going to be far from blazing

It is too much hypothetical; DOSBox should be (and will be) optimized to work better at Pandora then it is now. It is already mentioned at this forum that PSP DOSBox can run (even extremely slowly) Windows95. There are plenty of videos at youtube showing Win3.1/95 in action at DOSBox@PSP. PSP run at 222/333 MHz. Pandora 500/600 MHz (possible even more). There is plenty of room here to be optimized, just don't expect it this week. I'm sure that it will run much more then "286 protected mode". Wolf3D is good for benchmarks, but it is quite demanding app for hardware: DOS has not builded any 3D chip, it is all made through (DOSBox virtual) math-coprocessor (if there's any -this is DX instead SX at e.g. 386DX). Sierra adventures will work flawlessly on the other hand. Same is with Windows 3.1. Some games will work flawlessly, many of them won't work anyhow. IMO, (as I remember), most of speed related problems with Windows 3.x (against pure DOS) were about extremely poor RAM handling of Windows 3.x. It means that if you have 2-8 MB RAM, you loose. But if you have 12-32, no problems. So, this is not related to Pandora/DOSBox limitations. We could expect -5% of performance vs "pure DOS". Windows 95 is whole different story: it is bloatware. Somebody could try with ReactOS instead - here is video - it is, at least, open source. But forget about gaming (like at video).
BTW, about Windows memory handling: there is a legend (but somewhere also proved if I remember correctly) which said that if you just start & close same application (e.g. notepad) enough number of times, you will get "Out of memory error".

 

[darkborn]

Here is some interesting site by Theodor Lauppert with Win 16-bit games including reviews, sys requirements and hundreds of dloads. Test your DOSBox skills.
Games for 16-bit Windows; 16-color games; 256 or More Colors
Klotz (Tetris clone) (1989!) "What computer or emulator will it run on? A 386 with Windows 3.1."
Stuffin' the Briefcase Needs "probably any PC with Windows 3.0"
SimCity for Windows Needs "anything that runs Windows 3.0 well."
ProjectBrasil 2000 (SimCity clone), shareware, dl here, last version here. Needs "any PC running Windows 3.1" VGA, 640x480-800x600
Space Quest 6: The Spinal Frontier (SVGA) SVGA, 640x480 update: Original requirements: 386/25 minimum, 486/25 recommended - it means it could work! (DOSBox@Pandora cycles = 2000-3000 = 386/16 - ???)
Enemy Nations "probably the most advanced game to run under Windows 3.1." Freeware, 300MB Enemy Nations Homepage Needs "Any Pentium running Windows 3.1 (with Win32s) or higher." "It should run at any resolution, at the very least at 1600×1200!"
Game runs under Windows 3x/9x/XP, most probably at Wine & ReactOS too. Win32s and WinG needed to run at Win3.1 (not included).
(IMO DOSBox@Pandora try is worth only for benchmarking: I don't think that it will ever run fast enough... or?)

It is called "The Best Game you Never Played" :lol:

 

[Exophase]

DOSBox is not going to emulate an x86 at 500 or 600MHz! It'll be closer to a 386 at maybe 16MHz from the numbers we're seeing right now. QEMU + Wine would not be 20-50% in performance, I don't know why you think that. It'll probably be substantially faster. DOSBox for ARM is slow.