Orkie
Super Duper Mega GP Mania
Answer: Honestly, yes, I would prefer you not to.WarmFluffyUK said:
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Where Is The Kernel Source For Firmware 1.1.0 ?
- Thread starter yoku
- Start date
Devilmandex
Still Fresh
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2009
- Messages
- 87
They violated the GPL the day the Wiz was released. The source should have came out the same time. I guess they just don't understand GPL rules and laws or don't think it's really necessary to abide by them. I wish people would take the GPL seriously though I really do
MWeston
Internal Development
My thanks to WarmFluffyUK. Personally I'd rather know something was being done than nothing at all. I thought you can't sell a product unless the code was released though? I thought they had to be released simultaneously.
You should also ask them if they are going to register at SD.org for using their logo and ask them if they are really going to get CE certification with a proper logo and then actually get FCC testing which would then provide them with a real ID number. Since most everyone knows what I'm working on, seeing them get away with all these FAKE logos is a real sore spot for me. Give me shit if you want, but I do have as much right to complain about this as anyone.
You should also ask them if they are going to register at SD.org for using their logo and ask them if they are really going to get CE certification with a proper logo and then actually get FCC testing which would then provide them with a real ID number. Since most everyone knows what I'm working on, seeing them get away with all these FAKE logos is a real sore spot for me. Give me shit if you want, but I do have as much right to complain about this as anyone.
notaz
Certified Guru
It's the first link on the same post sbock posted:torpor said:
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?/topic/47875-the-reason-there-is-no-full-firmware-update/page__st__45__p__727896&#entry727896
the link got corrupted during forum upgrade, here is the fixed one:
http://x11.gp2x.de/openwiz/linux-2.6.24-pollux-090105-wiz.tar.gz
this is closest we have to kernel shipped in Wiz.
Unfortunately it's kind of obvious that they either don't want to release the source or simply don't care (which is basically the same as not wanting in this case). Two months were more then enough to sort that out (not to mention it was release prerequisite really). As a developer spending my time on making their console software better for free I don't feel happy about this.WarmFluffyUK said:
If you care about them you should better do. By not releasing the source they will only hurt themselves in the end.WarmFluffyUK said:
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WarmFluffyUK
The Big Wad Bolf.
Orkie may I ask what have I ever done to you to deserve your flaming.Orkie said:
Please kindly take your flames out of the boards, if you have a problem with me tell me to my face and stop degrading threads.
Thanks,
Clare.
P.S. I did try PM'ing you about this, but your inbox is full. And could I also say that your post above was a a simple personal attack, in fact you were being defeatist from your first reply to my initial post in this thread, Orkie I thought you were better than that, obviously I was wrong, which will probably give you something to talk about next time you're with your slipzone "club" buddies.
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I thought the Wiz was an open source console using GPL code?
Surely under GPL GPH were obligated to release the source on day one?
Not soon, not in a while and not when they have the time. It takes no time at all to upload the files.
It irks me to see people working hard in their free time for no money to bring us programs respect the GPL license whilst others who make money from those same people seemingly ignore it for whatever reasons they may have. If it wasn't for the people creating the software GPH would not have sold more than a handful of units.
One of the reasons I put away the PSP for homebrew in favour of this wiz thing is that I was under the impression the developers would have free reign to create what they want in a co-operative eniviroment.
Now this might have been a one off, i've only had this thing a while but it worries me to see this.
On a side note, what are the chances of a total firmware replacement that has nothing to do with GPH?
I would support both technically and financially such a project. I wouldn't even mind if it only had half the functionality of the GPH OS so long as it let people work freely.
I don't know the first thing about coding but I am a professional graphic designer and would contribute both graphics and money to such a thing.
Surely under GPL GPH were obligated to release the source on day one?
Not soon, not in a while and not when they have the time. It takes no time at all to upload the files.
It irks me to see people working hard in their free time for no money to bring us programs respect the GPL license whilst others who make money from those same people seemingly ignore it for whatever reasons they may have. If it wasn't for the people creating the software GPH would not have sold more than a handful of units.
One of the reasons I put away the PSP for homebrew in favour of this wiz thing is that I was under the impression the developers would have free reign to create what they want in a co-operative eniviroment.
Now this might have been a one off, i've only had this thing a while but it worries me to see this.
On a side note, what are the chances of a total firmware replacement that has nothing to do with GPH?
I would support both technically and financially such a project. I wouldn't even mind if it only had half the functionality of the GPH OS so long as it let people work freely.
I don't know the first thing about coding but I am a professional graphic designer and would contribute both graphics and money to such a thing.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
AMADEUS said:
Unfortunately not a one off, the exact same thing happened with GP2X.
AMADEUS said:
Pretty good since it happened with GP2X in the form of Open2x. The only thing is that it took forever to come out, and they did eventually have the source as a reference. We DO have some version of the Linux source but it's out of date. None of this was released directly by GPH on their website or anything like that.
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Pickle
Mega GP Mania
I guess ive never understood why when they do a firmware release they publish the source along with it. Whats there to hide?
WarmFluffyUK said:
I think the frustration is with GPH not you. You are doing fine by giving us updates etc.
GPH however is a different story. Them saying "We are going to release it" is fine but the big question is WHEN! Will they release it tomorrow? Next week? next year? I do agree with what some here say, make a tarball and release the damn source now! "They are busy" is an excuse, as was said how long would it take ? An hour? two? It is not like they are re-writing firmware, they are releasing something already done. In the time it takes them to invent lame excuses they could have e-mailed someone the source. They pulled the same crap with the GP2X and it took people threatening to turn them in to get them to stop dragging their ass. I am no coder but I thought it was ILLEGAL to put out a linux product and not release the source at the same time. If I think right then they have been in violation for months. They better get their shit together.
So thank you for communicating with them/us and letting us know what they say, and bollocks to GPH for being so lax.
P.S. I wouldn't worry about Orkie so much, his favorite indoor sport was flaming me for anything too, even when I wasn't in the conversation. He just likes flamming for some odd reason.
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WarmFluffyUK
The Big Wad Bolf.
Well I have had a quick chat to GPH again and their firmware engineer is currently improving the the code, and will release it as soon as they are happy with it. i.e. it's still work in progress and unfortunately with all the other development going on they don't have a set timescale 
@DaveC: I know what you mean, he must be a pyromaniac
@DaveC: I know what you mean, he must be a pyromaniac
torpor
hack hack hack, the little machines fight back
WarmFluffyUK: First, I'm not flaming you, but if you are the messenger then *be the messenger* and let us know that you are going to *communicate with GPH* that the community is not happy with them. I do not know you personally, but if you are to be the de-facto contact point between 'us' and 'them', then you better let them know 'our' point of view vis-a-vis 'their' not treating the Linux code properly, and it should be very clear that they are burning the goodwill of their active developers - not just the mob, but the core guys who are adding value to the platform, daily - by not complying, immediately, with the GPl.
Second: *WHAT* code cleanup? How could they possibly have something to 'clean up' in their version of the kernel - if its embarrassing for them to release some hacked up rubbish, thats perfectly fine, we do not care - we want the code to do the cleanup and fixup and make progress with it, as a community, in the first place. Its not like there are people in this community who only write perfect code that makes the guru's weep green tears .. GPH have *no leg to stand on* when it comes to this issue: They have shipped a product, which works, to the public, and it would not have been so if they had not used GPL'ed code. So, this code needs to be released *at the same time* to their public.
The point you have to communicate, as you are the messenger, is that any delay between a public firmware binary release and the public firmware source release is UNACCEPTABLE, and they need to stop doing it. This policy is illegal, and *they* are violating the license. We are not whining, we're not attacking anyone: we are demanding that GPH do what they are required, by law, to do. If they don't like this, or keep making excuses about why its okay that they, as a business entity, can break the law, well then .. they'd better be prepared to hear what the community has to say about it. Like it or not.
Thirdly, this 'flaming' nonsense is irrelevant to the discussion. You should not be taking things personally, messenger, nor should you engage in targetting Orkie for whatever personal reasons the two of you can invent to be upset at each other. You're *both* fine members of this community, you're *both* quite clearly productive for this scene; why are you spitting at each other? Makes no sense other than that you just do not have the discipline to avoid the digression, and I wish the two of you - and other productive, fine members of this community - would realise that we are all on the same team, here. Our hardware unites us. What Orkie wants: that the hardware gets better through better software. You want the same thing to. Both of you should turn and face the real dilemna, which is that we, as a community, are faced with serious impediments to progress when GPH violate the GPL. Orkie has a very valid point, and if you are a key person in the communication equation, WarmFluffy, then you must rise above your own personal hubris on 'being attacked' and see the issue as it is.
This is serious. GPH are getting away with it, and when people say "well okay then, your excuse has been accepted and we'll just play along with you because you're great", then *those people become accessories to the violation*. If you are are to play a communications role between the powers that be and us lowly pond scum^W^W$-paying, hardware-purchasing, productive developers, then you must understand your responsibility. Assure us that you have understood the issue - that the productive developer core are disaffected with GPH over this issue, for the *3RD MAJOR PRODUCT IN A ROW* - and that is all you need to do.
GPH have to understand: we don't want the linux kernel code so that we can laugh at the stupids .. we want it because we want to make our WIZ handhelds *even better*. I'll fix gadget_ether as soon as I possibly can, and will actively participate in further progress with the kernel integration and user experience. I *won't* be laughing at the stupid code: I'll be *fixing* it. But if I continue to hit this brick wall - and you, as the communicator, cast a shadow on that wall, like it or not - then I will eventually just give up, throw away the WIZ, and go do something else. That is how a free society works.
So, I hope you get the point. I enjoy your work on smoothing things out: but if you're going to turn around and spit at those who are getting upset at the violations, then be prepared to be targetted as *part of the problem*. We, as a community, cannot continue to weakly let them get away with destructive - yes, purely destructive - behaviour.
EDIT: the GPL does not say 'release the code when you feel less embarrassed about its state'. The GPL says "when you release a binary derived from GPL'ed code, to a public, you are required to provide that source code to that public *at the same time* and without any limitations". Period. No ifs, no buts, no excuses. WarmFluffyUK: GPH *cannot continue to make excuses*. And you cannot continue to accept the excuse. Go to bat for the team, and smash all attempt to perpetuate the excuses GPH give.
Second: *WHAT* code cleanup? How could they possibly have something to 'clean up' in their version of the kernel - if its embarrassing for them to release some hacked up rubbish, thats perfectly fine, we do not care - we want the code to do the cleanup and fixup and make progress with it, as a community, in the first place. Its not like there are people in this community who only write perfect code that makes the guru's weep green tears .. GPH have *no leg to stand on* when it comes to this issue: They have shipped a product, which works, to the public, and it would not have been so if they had not used GPL'ed code. So, this code needs to be released *at the same time* to their public.
The point you have to communicate, as you are the messenger, is that any delay between a public firmware binary release and the public firmware source release is UNACCEPTABLE, and they need to stop doing it. This policy is illegal, and *they* are violating the license. We are not whining, we're not attacking anyone: we are demanding that GPH do what they are required, by law, to do. If they don't like this, or keep making excuses about why its okay that they, as a business entity, can break the law, well then .. they'd better be prepared to hear what the community has to say about it. Like it or not.
Thirdly, this 'flaming' nonsense is irrelevant to the discussion. You should not be taking things personally, messenger, nor should you engage in targetting Orkie for whatever personal reasons the two of you can invent to be upset at each other. You're *both* fine members of this community, you're *both* quite clearly productive for this scene; why are you spitting at each other? Makes no sense other than that you just do not have the discipline to avoid the digression, and I wish the two of you - and other productive, fine members of this community - would realise that we are all on the same team, here. Our hardware unites us. What Orkie wants: that the hardware gets better through better software. You want the same thing to. Both of you should turn and face the real dilemna, which is that we, as a community, are faced with serious impediments to progress when GPH violate the GPL. Orkie has a very valid point, and if you are a key person in the communication equation, WarmFluffy, then you must rise above your own personal hubris on 'being attacked' and see the issue as it is.
This is serious. GPH are getting away with it, and when people say "well okay then, your excuse has been accepted and we'll just play along with you because you're great", then *those people become accessories to the violation*. If you are are to play a communications role between the powers that be and us lowly pond scum^W^W$-paying, hardware-purchasing, productive developers, then you must understand your responsibility. Assure us that you have understood the issue - that the productive developer core are disaffected with GPH over this issue, for the *3RD MAJOR PRODUCT IN A ROW* - and that is all you need to do.
GPH have to understand: we don't want the linux kernel code so that we can laugh at the stupids .. we want it because we want to make our WIZ handhelds *even better*. I'll fix gadget_ether as soon as I possibly can, and will actively participate in further progress with the kernel integration and user experience. I *won't* be laughing at the stupid code: I'll be *fixing* it. But if I continue to hit this brick wall - and you, as the communicator, cast a shadow on that wall, like it or not - then I will eventually just give up, throw away the WIZ, and go do something else. That is how a free society works.
So, I hope you get the point. I enjoy your work on smoothing things out: but if you're going to turn around and spit at those who are getting upset at the violations, then be prepared to be targetted as *part of the problem*. We, as a community, cannot continue to weakly let them get away with destructive - yes, purely destructive - behaviour.
EDIT: the GPL does not say 'release the code when you feel less embarrassed about its state'. The GPL says "when you release a binary derived from GPL'ed code, to a public, you are required to provide that source code to that public *at the same time* and without any limitations". Period. No ifs, no buts, no excuses. WarmFluffyUK: GPH *cannot continue to make excuses*. And you cannot continue to accept the excuse. Go to bat for the team, and smash all attempt to perpetuate the excuses GPH give.
WarmFluffyUK
The Big Wad Bolf.
Torpor, I was on about Orkie flaming, not you hun.
All your other comments are quite valid, but unfortunately I'm not an emplyee in their tech section and cannot answer until GPH let me know. You're all quite welcome to try contacting them yourselves as you never know if they get a few more requests it may spur them on a bit? I can only feedback info I have and I am trying my best.
All your other comments are quite valid, but unfortunately I'm not an emplyee in their tech section and cannot answer until GPH let me know. You're all quite welcome to try contacting them yourselves as you never know if they get a few more requests it may spur them on a bit? I can only feedback info I have and I am trying my best.
notaz
Certified Guru
Please send them a short message:WarmFluffyUK said:Well I have had a quick chat to GPH again and their firmware engineer is currently improving the the code, and will release it as soon as they are happy with it. i.e. it's still work in progress and unfortunately with all the other development going on they don't have a set timescale
1. http://gpl-violations.org/faq/vendor-faq.html
2. Community does not have a problem with unfinished code. Tell them we already have their old kernel source that Orkie released, and already seen their even more unfinished code.
3. Tell them most developers and many users are unhappy with this. Ask their English speaking people to read this thread. I remember someone from GPH used to come here.
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notaz
Certified Guru
How? Through tonyhan@gp2x.com?WarmFluffyUK said:
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WarmFluffyUK
The Big Wad Bolf.
You can try Tony if you like but he's not in the tech section, and I personally can't give out anyone else's email address sorry.notaz said:
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torpor
hack hack hack, the little machines fight back
WarmFluffy: Orkie has done a lot more work on the kernel side of things for GPH than I think a lot of people recognize. If he's flaming - and I'm not justifying misbehaviour here - I can understand that its coming from the basis of frustration. I would advise you to see Orkie's personal misgivings about this issue not as a personality conflict between the two of you, but more as a reflection of just how frustrating it is, as a developer (Orkie is a pretty good one), to not get what you need in order to make progress. It is a terrible nuisance to hack code on Wiz right now, because of the bugs in gadget_ether for example, and the point is: this nuisance wouldn't be happening if GPH were being good members of the GPL club. We'd have fixed it all already, honestly. The only thing stopping us is GPH.
WarmFluffyUK
The Big Wad Bolf.
Regardless of how much any member of our community has done, it doesn't give them a licence to flame and be a bit of an idiot. I know Orkie has done a mass of stuff and is quite a genius in this respect, but there's no excuse.
Treat others with the respect you expect for yourself.
Treat others with the respect you expect for yourself.
torpor
hack hack hack, the little machines fight back
WarmFluffyUK said:
There is no excuse for being rude, true. But this thread isn't about Orkie. Its about GPH.
Please communicate that if GPH expect contributions from developers, they need to give developers what is rightfully theirs: source for the WIZ Kernel code.
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WarmFluffyUK
The Big Wad Bolf.
This I have done, twice already. :blink: I can't do much more than pass on to them our feelings on the subject.torpor said:
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