What would the world and his dog think if P2 used an x86 SOC? (but not mini SD) ;)

[monstercameron]

Well, in my opinion, backwards compatibility is a very important thing.

Being able to use the current PNDs would be awesome.

There would be NO fullspeed NDS Emulator (unless someone codes one for x86), and if you just have a random x86 OS on there, it wouldn't be anything special.

It would just be "another PC", in my opinion.

Yes, you'd have sooo many games, but you would have no idea how well they would run. You need to tweak the settings, configure inputs, etc. for most games.

That's exactly why I never hopped from C64 and Amiga to video game consoles.

I want to start a game and play. Not tweak settings, configure stuff, etc.

That's why I stopped playing games on the PC back then.

On the Pandora, I know when I download a PND, it will work.

what is to stop you from building a database of all the programs that would work?

what is wrong with tweaking?

why limit yourself to things specifically tailored to a device when you can explore the app ecosystem, like apple v. android.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

I would be really really sad if notaz would retire from the scene.

...

notaz can't retire at age 25!  

 

[xiongxioi]

what is to stop you from building a database of all the programs that would work?


what is wrong with tweaking?


why limit yourself to things specifically tailored to a device when you can explore the app ecosystem, like apple v. android.

i hope you do realize your questioning comes up as very rude and immature.
Ed is agruing that pandora being a very personal system to him, he'd not willingly say goodbye to everything pandora was.


Asking for ed to build a database that has everything is like asking a man to collect each piece of different snow flakes.


Even those mega global companies can't do that, then how could ed?


We have built a decent sized database over the years for arm, why would we toss it away for no other reason than chasing the trend blindly?


There is no driving force to make p2 x86. arm is still going strong and the community is better than ever. Switching to x86 now is like giving up a nicely paying job in the off chance a better one would be at the corner.


It's not even classified as gamble because there is no big reward waiting ahead for the potential risk ed's taking.

 

[EssoAir]

what is to stop you from building a database of all the programs that would work?


what is wrong with tweaking?


why limit yourself to things specifically tailored to a device when you can explore the app ecosystem, like apple v. android.

i hope you do realize your questioning comes up as very rude and immature.
Ed is agruing that pandora being a very personal system to him, he'd not willingly say goodbye to everything pandora was.


Asking for ed to build a database that has everything is like asking a man to collect each piece of different snow flakes.


Even those mega global companies can't do that, then how could ed?


We have built a decent sized database over the years for arm, why would we toss it away for no other reason than chasing the trend blindly?


There is no driving force to make p2 x86. arm is still going strong and the community is better than ever. Switching to x86 now is like giving up a nicely paying job in the off chance a better one would be at the corner.


It's not even classified as gamble because there is no big reward waiting ahead for the potential risk ed's taking.

You must be new here. MonsterCameron says lots of stupid things. Just ignore him

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Well I see it like this, we are at the cross roads, if you were to move to x86 , now is the time to do it.   The community is still small and the impact will be a lot less than if you went from a ARM P2 to x86 P3 you would think - if that ever happens

It is a strategic change of sorts, and the Pro's and Cons would need to be weighed up.  Personally , I think there is something appealing about a Windows 8 handheld.  Even if Win 8 is not officially supported for a P2, it will attract a lot more more people to buy a P2 than just a Linux P2 offering - so from from a commercial point of view, there is a lot of weight behind going with a x86 P2 . Don't forget that the more it sells the cheaper it should be due to the ability then to get volume discounts.

So a x86 P2 could be a cheaper offering with a bigger community - those are big plusses.  On the con side we would need to re-do/re-compile current P1 apps/games etc.  Fortunately the P1 app library is not the biggest - but this is still an issue.  

It's an interesting decision.

I mentioned all these point and got continually shot down.

Naturally.

I prefer myself laugh at arguments like:

"I think there is something appealing about a Windows 8 handheld.  Even if Win 8 is not officially supported for a P2, it will attract a lot more more people to buy a P2 than just a Linux P2 offering - so from from a commercial point of view, there is a lot of weight"

 

[thatgui]

If that's a bit hard to imagine, let's say what if pandora can run any android games at full speed, all we ever need to do is log in our googleplay accounts and download away, then we would not be so dependent on the repo and people who are working their hands to the bones for us. Sure it would save everyone a lot of time, but develpers would not feel as involved as they are today. That feeling of insignificant may drive many of them away.

Thats not really hardware dependent - a P2 with a proper Android will/would face the same problem

Well I see it like this, we are at the cross roads, if you were to move to x86 , now is the time to do it.   The community is still small and the impact will be a lot less than if you went from a ARM P2 to x86 P3 you would think - if that ever happens

It is a strategic change of sorts, and the Pro's and Cons would need to be weighed up.  Personally , I think there is something appealing about a Windows 8 handheld.  Even if Win 8 is not officially supported for a P2 and Linux is the main OS, it will attract a lot more more people to buy a P2 than just a Linux P2 offering - so from from a commercial point of view, there is a lot of weight behind going with a x86 P2 . Don't forget that the more it sells the cheaper it should be due to the ability then to get volume discounts.

So a x86 P2 could be a cheaper offering with a bigger community - those are big plusses.  On the con side we would need to re-do/re-compile current P1 apps/games etc.  Fortunately the P1 app library is not the biggest - but this is still an issue.  

It's also a little hard to judge here what to go for , as we really don't know what time frame a P2 would come out in.  It could very well be years away , meaning other future SOCs for both ARM and x86 might be considered. 

It's an interesting decision.

A bigger community is not always a plus. But why are people so interested in Windows 8 in such a small form factor - sure you can run "every" program designed for Windows, but at what speed ? This maybe ok for applications (are there videos out showing the full fledged msoffice at work?), but games will suffer a lot.

That's exactly why I never hopped from C64 and Amiga to video game consoles.

I want to start a game and play. Not tweak settings, configure stuff, etc.

That's why I stopped playing games on the PC back then.

That does not make any sense to me, if there is one advantage that consoles had over desktop system, its that they offered instant play.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Why do people like Linux in such a small form factor?, same reason people would also like  Win 8 in a small form factor I'd imagine. After all , windows in a small factor are traditionally what a UMPC has been up until the Pandora.

It's not for everyone for sure, but a Linux handheld PC isn't for everyone either.   All I was saying is that,  if you had a handheld which could run Linux, Android and Win 8, it would appeal to more.  From a business point of view in trying to get as many people to buy a P2 to maximize ROI, there is merit in going the x86 route.  Higher sales also mean possibilites of volume discounts on parts , which could mean a cheaper P2

Sure Bay Trail probably is not going to be able to run everything in the x86 stable, but since that stable is so huge and goes back so far , there is quite a lot it will run. Just don't expect it to run Crysis  

Of course , as others mentioned , there are issues of backward compatibility, and thus cons with an x86 route.  

 

[_wb_]

Why do people like Linux in such a small form factor?, same reason people would also like  Win 8 in a small form factor I'd imagine. After all , windows in a small factor are traditionally what a UMPC has been up until the Pandora.

No, people do not like GNU/Linux for the same reasons as why they like Windows. I don't like Windows at all. Most devs I know don't like Windows at all. Windows is aimed at mindless consumers.

 

[vcoleiro1]

_wb_

There are people who would like a Linux handheld, and there those - like traditional/historical UMPC buyers who would like a Windows handheld.  The point is there is a market for a Windows handheld as there is for a Linux handheld.  ie because some people want there favourite OS (whatever that is) on a handheld <- that's the common reason between the two

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Nobody cares about windows anymore.

 

[sebt3]

... and there those - like traditional/historical UMPC buyers who would like a Windows handheld.

And the pandora community is not for them. There have a pleatora of Windows UMPC. I bet with that new stuff from intel we might see some more. Or not. It's not as if windows keep being revelent after all

 

[Linux-SWAT]

It's the same thread over and over and over... Mods, this is boring, and it wastes disk space.

 

[moxie]

Well, it could have been a different thread, had the thread kept to Mr. Loons intentions. It would be interesting to hear the more technical opinions of our developers. Instead we get another round of "Everybody in the world will want an x86 pandora!!!", "It will burn through your table and set fire to your cat!", "The Battery!!!", "Steam!!!" and so on. And of course "I'm not really interested at all, but really it must be win8 or you're all stupid".

Waste of space? Yeah, but space is cheap. Waste of opportunity, possibly. But that is not a mod-actionable point

Unless Mr. Loon specifically would want us to push the non-dev bickering back to one of the other half a dozen arm/x86 bickering threads?

 

[PokeParadox]

I'll just say that I find backwards compatibility to be VERY important in any system.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

True processor and OS too ;^) .

 

[moxie]

That's exactly why I never hopped from C64 and Amiga to video game consoles.

I want to start a game and play. Not tweak settings, configure stuff, etc.

That's why I stopped playing games on the PC back then.

That does not make any sense to me, if there is one advantage that consoles had over desktop system, its that they offered instant play.

I'd guess that ED sorta changed his mind mid-sentence. He started out writing "That's exactly why I never hopped from C64 and Amiga to PC", and finished writing "That's exactly why I went from C64 and Amiga to video game consoles."

 

[vcoleiro1]

I have no problem with the discussion so far.  This was meant to discuss the Pros and Cons of X86 and that's exactly the discussion it has attracted.

 

[moxie]

Nope. It was meant to get the developers perspective on the question. That does not include questions about sales to different groups (gamers, UMPC customers, FLOSS fanatics), lamentations about how everyone is mean to me just because I'm mean to them, whether anyone in the world cares for Windows 8 (hint: No, they don't), and so on.

Unfortunately, the intention failed from the get go.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Nope. It was meant to get the developers perspective on the question. That does not include questions about sales to different groups (gamers, UMPC customers, FLOSS fanatics), lamentations about how everyone is mean to me just because I'm mean to them, whether anyone in the world cares for Windows 8 (hint: No, they don't), and so on.

Unfortunately, the intention failed from the get go.

Hmm , yes it is hard to limit opinion to just one group on this forum

 

[_wb_]

From the point of view of devs, it does not matter what the architecture is, unless they are coding in assembly. We have compilers that produce machine code for us, changing the platform is basically just changing the target parameters of gcc. So it doesn't matter.

Unless you want to do coding in assembly. Then of course the architecture matters, and it matters a lot. And then x86 is an ugly beast (cf. notaz' post) while ARM is quite nice to work with.

So for most devs, I think the answer would be: "meh, don't care" - there's no advantage and no disadvantage to x86.

For those special very talented devs like notaz and Exophase who like a challenge and still do asm optimization, well, ARM would be a much better choice for them than x86.

ED's point is also valid: if we want to be able to take an SD card full of PNDs from a Pandora 1, insert it in a Pandora 2 and expect things to "just work", then we have to stick to ARM. For me personally, this is not a priority - I will find a way to make the stuff I want work in one way or another. But as a general design principle, backwards compatibility is quite important. We can break backwards compatibility if there is a compelling reason to do so (no need to grow a legacy clutter monster), but if we can keep things nice and clean and backwards compatible, then we should go for that. This is an important consideration for devs too, because it's nice if you can release one PND that works on both the Pandora 1 and 2.