What We're Not Allowed To Emulate.

[TrevorBradley]

I've been working on developing a GP2X F200 clone of Graffiti, handwriting recognition based on touchscreen penstrokes. I'd been posting several tests in the general forums here and things were looking very promising. Someone made mention of the idea of developing a general library that could be used on other projects like DOSBox and I got even more excited about improving the project.

Then it was brought to my attention that Unistrokes (the original idea of letters drawn on a touchscreen with a single penstroke) was patented by Xerox and I really wasn't sure how to proceed. My own research indicated that it might not be a good idea to continue. The project's pretty much halted since then.

I am not using any code from Xerox or Graffiti, everything I've written is my own code. All the images I used in my project were released under the GPL. The only thing I'm using from Palm are my memories of using my own Handspring Palm device many years ago. I have no intention of profiting from the code and would be happy to release the source into the GPL.

It would be fun to continue working on this project, but I really don't want to get a nasty letter a year down the road and have to pull it. I've thought of some alternatives, like not having the penstroke config file distributed, but software that each person could use to train their device. But that seems to me as if it could violate unistrokes. (Though how does Palm do it?)

Any ideas on how to proceed? There seems to be a fair amount emulated here that other companies might be able to get picky over and send out nasty letters. There aren't any BIOS files to distribute to make this work. How did those projects stay under the radar?

Thanks in advance for your time

 

[Squidge]

If it's all your own work, and your not profiting from it in any way, I wouldn't worry about it. Your only likely to get a C&D order or other legal trouble if you attempt to sell it or rip code out of Palm or Xerox Graffiti stuff.

For example, theres a fair amount of emulators that are actually built by reading patents and using the information within them to create the emulation. You've designed your version by yourself, so don't worry about it.

 

[TrevorBradley]

For example, theres a fair amount of emulators that are actually built by reading patents and using the information within them to create the emulation. You've designed your version by yourself, so don't worry about it.

That's how Xerox ended up suing Palm. Then again Palm was making buckets of cash on the patent.

 

[craigix]

Is it a software patent? Most countries don't even recognise them.

 

[TrevorBradley]

Is it a software patent? Most countries don't even recognise them.

Unistrokes Patent

I'm not sure what it is. It's a hardware use patent. It apparently was big enough for Xerox and Palm to settle out of court for $20+ million. Apparently Palm got around it for Graffiti 2 by having their system have multiple strokes for characters (which I could do as well, presently my system is unistroke only)

 

[evol]

i thought that the judge ruled that unistroke was invalidated by prior art ?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/24/palm_vs_xerox/

anyone got the heads up on this ?

 

[Squidge]

Thats the problem though you see - Money.

Xerox are not going to sue you, as your not somebody they can put out of business by claiming millions in damages/etc. Also, I doubt you go around splattering your address into every piece of software you release, so I don't see where they are going to send the paperwork too even if they did decide.

Now, if your library came with the Pandora when it was bought, instead of being a downloadable 3rd party freeware addon, Xerox could probably sue Craig, but that's not going to happen as he wouldn't be daft enough to include it (if he did, it would probably take them a few years to sue him, and by that time, he'll most likely be soaking up the sun in his newly bought village in the bahamas from all the Pandora sales )

i thought that the judge ruled that unistroke was invalidated by prior art ?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/24/palm_vs_xerox/

anyone got the heads up on this ?



Xerox appealed to that and won. http://www.technewsworld.com/story/software/33999.html

 

[TrevorBradley]

Xerox appealed to that and won. http://www.technewsworld.com/story/software/33999.html



Actually Xerox appealed and Palm settled out of court. They have a 7 year "cease fire".

2006 article

OK, I'm going to release this and see if there's any more interest. Right now it's coded in Fenix, but I really would be willing to develop this into a library other programs, like dosbox, etc, could use as an alternative to a virtual keyboard.

 

[Hitnrun]

In my Palm T|E, it came with Grafitti 2, which is shit.

I downloaded somewhere a pdb, that when installed restored the writing to Grafitti 1. Who did that? Maybe Palm, but who knows... maybe if the strokes are configurable, you can release a version which is different from grafitti, then someone you don't know maybe generate data files for it to be like grafitti.

 

[Squidge]

For a Palm device, you can take the original Grafitti files from an old Palm and install them on a Grafitti 2 Palm to "downgrade" to the earlier version of Grafitti.

 

[TrevorBradley]

In my Palm T|E, it came with Grafitti 2, which is shit.

I downloaded somewhere a pdb, that when installed restored the writing to Grafitti 1. Who did that? Maybe Palm, but who knows... maybe if the strokes are configurable, you can release a version which is different from grafitti, then someone you don't know maybe generate data files for it to be like grafitti.

I've already had to modify the original graffiti because it doesn't work with my current algorithm. For instance a graffiti P and D look the same: down up right down left. I had to remove the initial downstroke from the p.

My algorithm is quite primitive but surprisingly good.. just certain old graffiti motions won't work.

 

[ledow]

It can only be a patent issue, all the other types of intellectual property only apply if you've directly copied their code/diagrams or are trying to infringe on Xerox's/Palm's trademarks (is Graffiti a trademark in your country, for instance?).

The EU, for example, doesn't recognise such patents on software at all (if you were distributing a GP2X-clone, i.e. physical hardware, advertising the fact that it had touchscreen graffiti, then you would be in a lot more problems, but software alone cannot be patented in most "sensible" countries, i.e. those that can spell "colour" correctly.).

Software patents are horrible, nasty, stupid things. But a US software, or even hardware, patent does not imply/grant an EU or UK patent, either (and in fact the EU probably wouldn't let such a patent even pass the preliminary stages of application). So the US patent bears basically zero relevance if you live inside the EU.

It all depends on the country you live in, the patents applicable in that jurisdiction, the intent (are you TRYING to put Xerox out of business by creating a Xerox-graffiti-clone, etc.) and a million and one other factors.

Personally, I'd say you were way under their radar, and I've seen Visual Basic programs from ten years ago that were doing handwriting recognition via mouse movement. Are you suggesting that just because I then run them on a computer with a touchscreen, the author of that software is somehow doing something illegal? The fact that this patent is tied to the use of a touchscreen means it is immaterial for you because you're only making the software. If you were selling it to the manufacturers for them to sell along with a GP2X, then you'd both have an enormous problem and, probably, a license fee to pay. But you're not.

Of course, I am not a lawyer, but the way to see is to google - see if anyone else is writing touchscreen-graffiti programs that *don't have patent licenses already paid* (i.e not Palm or Nintendo DS) on touchscreen devices. There's bound to be dozens for basically every touch-screen device out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents might be useful for finding out the exact situation where you live.