what is the cost of HDMI?

[TrashyMG]

I seem to remember that DisplayPort is royalty free, is this correct?

If so then I know it might be inappropriately late in the development phase, but how hard would it be to switch to a DisplayPort (mini or fullsize) connector? I'm not very familiar with the OMAP5, but if it helps I did find that the TI IGEPv5 board has a DisplayPort output.

The OMAP5 has build on HDMI directly from the pin-out of the SoC, it requires little to no extra circuitry to use. DisplayPort would need a bit of additional circuity to implement and space is a factor on the PCB. 

 

[WizardStan]

The OMAP5 doesn't have a DisplayPort out.  You can't just add a port for it.

 

[WizardStan]

Also it looks like the days of royalty free DisplayPort are gone: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150305006071/en/MPEG-LA-Introduces-License-DisplayPort
I don't completely understand this but it looks like, because MPEG-LA is part of the DisplayPort standard they've decided to just start charging royalties, including back royalties to 2013 on all devices that include a DisplayPort.

 

[bzar]

That's... quite the bait-and-switch

 

[pmprog]

I understand they always put the clause "We reserve the right to change the terms and conditions at any time", but surely you can't backport your terms?

 

[bzar]

As far as I could interpret, it seems MPEG LA had some patents in its back pocket that it suddenly dropped on the table with a "generous" offer of settlement.

 

[Grench]

I seem to remember that DisplayPort is royalty free, is this correct?
If so then I know it might be inappropriately late in the development phase, but how hard would it be to switch to a DisplayPort (mini or fullsize) connector? I'm not very familiar with the OMAP5, but if it helps I did find that the TI IGEPv5 board has a DisplayPort output.

The OMAP5 has build on HDMI directly from the pin-out of the SoC, it requires little to no extra circuitry to use. DisplayPort would need a bit of additional circuity to implement and space is a factor on the PCB. 

Beyond that, though, HDMI has other advantages.
HDMI can carry digital audio - hopefully this will be enabled in the Pyra so that the HDMI port is NOT just a display adapter.
HDMI is a standard in computers AND audio/video equipment.  I.e. I can hook it up to most modern monitors or to my home theater receiver without issues.

We're likely a long ways from this point on software, but I would like to see us be able to use the Pyra as a multimedia monster.  Just plug in the HDMI to the home theater receiver and have 1080p video with surround sound.  Content could be local or network or streaming over the net.

Now - follow along a bit here...
IF ARM virtual machines can become a 'thing' on the Pyra.
IF we can have that ARM VM emulate different platforms.
Apple TV, Chrome stick, FireTV and ROKU are all ARM based.

Is THAT the next wave of emulators?  In games, we can have one box (Pandora/Pyra) emulate a wide variety of gaming platforms.  Could the Pyra via VM capabilities emulate another ARM platform well enough to pull something like that off?

Yes - all of that is a LONG ways off - if it is possible at all.  But - it comes back to a theme.  We're far better off with the HDMI standard, even if it's proprietary and paid.  We need that flexibility to connect to modern computer AND home theater equipment.
 

 

[Chip]

HDMI is a proprietary format. In order to use it you need to pay a licensing fee.  Period.  

Again, these fees would have had to have been paid by the chip manufacturer.  The chip outputs HDMI signals directly, so it is a complete HDMI-producing entity.  I don't see how they could dodge the licensing, and once it's been paid, it's been paid.  You have to be able to use a fully licensed component in a product without acquiring re-licensing obligations.  If not, the pyra would be on the hook for thousands of fees for the thousands of patented components it contains.

With MP3 or GIF, you're licensing the software, not a piece of hardware.  It's the decoding algorithm that is patented and licensed separately from the physical hardware.  With HDMI, there is no algorithm.  The bitstream format is either hard wired into the chip itself, or contained in the driver provided by the manufacturer.  If it's in the driver, I would think the manufacturer would have to have covered any licensing before distributing it.  If it's in the chip, it's definitely paid for already.

As ED said, the Pandora didn't pay any licensing for USB.  I'm assuming the pyra won't either, and he's implied that they won't be paying for HDMI licensing.  Either ED is real daredevil, or he's already examined the legal situation and determined that it's not strictly necessary.

 

[WizardStan]

Again, these fees would have had to have been paid by the chip manufacturer. 

No, as it says right on the HDMI licensing page, fees are only to be paid for a final product.

The HDMI royalty is only payable on Licensed Products that will be sold on a stand-alone basis (i.e. that are not incorporated into another Licensed Product that is subject to an HDMI royalty). For example, if a cable or IC is sold to an Adopter who then includes it in a television subject to a royalty, then the cable or IC maker would not pay a royalty, and the Adopter television manufacturer would pay the royalty on the final product. If the cable is sold directly to consumers, then it would be subject to a royalty.

edit: to be clear, there are no rules governing licensing fees, there's no need for consistency.  The HDMI Licensing LLC can choose to charge for end units and not require licensing for components, while another product may require licensing for components but once those are paid end products don't need it (although the component maker will likely pass the licensing cost along to the end user), while another company may decide that both component maker AND end product manufacturer must pay the licensing fee.  There's no legal entity controlling these fees and only market forces dictating which is used.

edit edit: (I miss the old editor where it was easy to split apart quotes and I could tackle things one at a time instead of focusing on one and then forgetting the rest until I reread it, but I digress)
Regarding the USB, a USB license is only required if you want to use the logo, or if you want a dedicated vendor ID.  Since the Pandora requires neither there was no need to pay the licensing fee.  Again, this was a decision by the USB Implementors Forum Inc, they made the decision on what they want to be licensed based on market forces and whatever magic eight ball they shook up.  HDMI Licensing LLC chose a different set of criteria for licensing, one that requires licensing if you include HDMI in a final product, whether you use the logo or not (and in fact charges more if you don't use the logo).

 

[Djhg2000]

The OMAP5 doesn't have a DisplayPort out.  You can't just add a port for it.

I didn't mean just replacing the connector, I meant replacing HDMI with full spec DisplayPort. Now that I think about it there are passive HDMI to DisplayPort adapters though so it might not be totally impossible. Either way it's all irrelevant if DisplayPort doesn't get rid of the licensing issues.

I seem to remember that DisplayPort is royalty free, is this correct?
If so then I know it might be inappropriately late in the development phase, but how hard would it be to switch to a DisplayPort (mini or fullsize) connector? I'm not very familiar with the OMAP5, but if it helps I did find that the TI IGEPv5 board has a DisplayPort output.

The OMAP5 has build on HDMI directly from the pin-out of the SoC, it requires little to no extra circuitry to use. DisplayPort would need a bit of additional circuity to implement and space is a factor on the PCB. 

Beyond that, though, HDMI has other advantages.
HDMI can carry digital audio - hopefully this will be enabled in the Pyra so that the HDMI port is NOT just a display adapter.
HDMI is a standard in computers AND audio/video equipment.  I.e. I can hook it up to most modern monitors or to my home theater receiver without issues.

We're likely a long ways from this point on software, but I would like to see us be able to use the Pyra as a multimedia monster.  Just plug in the HDMI to the home theater receiver and have 1080p video with surround sound.  Content could be local or network or streaming over the net.

Now - follow along a bit here...
IF ARM virtual machines can become a 'thing' on the Pyra.
IF we can have that ARM VM emulate different platforms.
Apple TV, Chrome stick, FireTV and ROKU are all ARM based.

Is THAT the next wave of emulators?  In games, we can have one box (Pandora/Pyra) emulate a wide variety of gaming platforms.  Could the Pyra via VM capabilities emulate another ARM platform well enough to pull something like that off?

Yes - all of that is a LONG ways off - if it is possible at all.  But - it comes back to a theme.  We're far better off with the HDMI standard, even if it's proprietary and paid.  We need that flexibility to connect to modern computer AND home theater equipment.
 

I know DisplayPort can carry audio too, because I use it on my gaming rig. The way that machine is built leaves little option if I want audio at all.

 On a separate note, Android really doesn't like the new forum editor.

 

[Grench]

Something to consider...

The license fee isn't the only bar to pass on standards organizations.  For the Pyra to sport the HDMI logo it will likely also need to be sent through some form of certification testing - which is the purpose of the standards organization.  They have the responsibility of ensuring that any device labeled with HDMI actually works with other HDMI devices and cables.  The fees pay for this testing and the legal pursuit of companies that bypass the license.  Some of this is quite beneficial for an end consumer as they have some form of guarantee that two or more HDMI products from wildly disparate and competing companies will work together.

I noticed that the OMAP 5 is supposed to be HDMI 1.4.  HDMI 1.4 includes 100Mbps Ethernet over HDMI.  It's also supposed to support resolutions up to 4096x2160 and several stereoscopic modes as well as the digital sound, DTS, Dolby, etc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.4
I wonder how much of that spec the Pyra will support in the end.

I'm curious if the Pyra will meet USB logo/license specs (regardless of whether ED chooses to pursue it).  The two USB 2.0 ports and the microUSB 3.0 OTG should be fine, but the Pyra has two non-standard usages of USB hardware.
The USB 3 port used with different non-standard wiring to push through eSATA.
The microUSB charging port with different non-standard wiring to handle non-USB serial port communications.

Not bad things - but curious things.

 

[Djhg2000]

Something to consider...

The license fee isn't the only bar to pass on standards organizations.  For the Pyra to sport the HDMI logo it will likely also need to be sent through some form of certification testing - which is the purpose of the standards organization.  They have the responsibility of ensuring that any device labeled with HDMI actually works with other HDMI devices and cables.  The fees pay for this testing and the legal pursuit of companies that bypass the license.  Some of this is quite beneficial for an end consumer as they have some form of guarantee that two or more HDMI products from wildly disparate and competing companies will work together.

I noticed that the OMAP 5 is supposed to be HDMI 1.4.  HDMI 1.4 includes 100Mbps Ethernet over HDMI.  It's also supposed to support resolutions up to 4096x2160 and several stereoscopic modes as well as the digital sound, DTS, Dolby, etc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.4
I wonder how much of that spec the Pyra will support in the end.

I'm curious if the Pyra will meet USB logo/license specs (regardless of whether ED chooses to pursue it).  The two USB 2.0 ports and the microUSB 3.0 OTG should be fine, but the Pyra has two non-standard usages of USB hardware.
The USB 3 port used with different non-standard wiring to push through eSATA.
The microUSB charging port with different non-standard wiring to handle non-USB serial port communications.

Not bad things - but curious things.

That's really interesting, so in theory we can have wired networking on the Pyra? I wonder how that would work in practice though as I'm sceptical of anything involving the graphics hardware (even if it is only to get through to the HDMI port)...

I don't remember what happened to eSATA, but I think the charging port connects directly to the OMAP5 debug virtual serial port over actual USB. Still good points though, while I've been busy with college I had somehow forgotten about those totally awesome features!   

 

[Neelix]

HDMI is a proprietary format. In order to use it you need to pay a licensing fee.  Period.  There is no (legal) way to use HDMI without paying royalties.  This fee is $10'000 every year you are selling the product plus 15 cents per unit sold.
You can use the DVI over HDMI, but that's just the connector, it is using the DVI format so no need to pay HDMI fees.
If you "reasonably" include the logo then the licensing fee drops from 15 cents to 5 cents.
If you can't afford $10'000 there's a lower cost $5000 per year plus $1 per unit sold.
It's not a trademark license, it's patent, like MP3 or GIF.

Out of interest, Is the licensing fee charged on a per device basis or a per company basis?

Say for example Nikolaus had 5 different devices that he wanted to integrate HDMI into.  Would he have to pay the annual licensing fee just the once for  Golden Delicious, or once for every separate device? 

Assuming the former (still in this same completely hypothetical situation) could Dragonbox then pay it's royalties through Golden Delicious even though the device is being sold under the Dragonbox brand? (thus sharing the overall cost between the two companies)

-Neelix

 

[WizardStan]

I'm not sure.  It looks like "adopter" is per company, so if one company makes many different products it only needs to pay the $10'000/$5000 fee once.  The per-device fee (15 cents or $1 or whatever) still applies per device, obviously.
I don't know how that would all play out though if they worked together to produce multiple different devices.  I could be completely wrong as well and the idea is moot.

 

[Letalis Sonus]

Now that I think about it there are passive HDMI to DisplayPort adapters though so it might not be totally impossible.

These passive adapters don't use DisplayPort at all, they are really just tunnelling the signals through the DisplayPort connector. This should not be confused with the DVI/HDMI situation: the transmission of RGB signals via HDMI is absolutely identical to single-link DVI-D, newer HDMI standards simply allow higher frequencies for larger resolutions.

 

[thatgui]

Beyond that, though, HDMI has other advantages.

HDMI can carry digital audio - hopefully this will be enabled in the Pyra so that the HDMI port is NOT just a display adapter.
HDMI is a standard in computers AND audio/video equipment.  I.e. I can hook it up to most modern monitors or to my home theater receiver without issues.

Depending on the Displayport implementation (which isn't easy to shrug off) HDMI is a completly inferior standard (as LetalisSolus stated, with some circuitry you can even have HDMI too, with a cheap convertion from TDMS to LVDS) and unfortunately "computer history" is repeating iteself (e.g. "Firewire" vs. USB back then). While HDMI is widely used in comsumer products, with the Pyra only sporting a MicroHDMI port you will need an adapter(cable) anyway > to me it does not matter wether I need a FullSizeHDMI zu MicroHDMI or FullSizeHDMI zu MiniDisplayport adpater.

Again, these fees would have had to have been paid by the chip manufacturer. 

No, as it says right on the HDMI licensing page, fees are only to be paid for a final product

thanks for saveing me time to clear that up

I noticed that the OMAP 5 is supposed to be HDMI 1.4.  HDMI 1.4 includes 100Mbps Ethernet over HDMI.  It's also supposed to support resolutions up to 4096x2160 and several stereoscopic modes as well as the digital sound, DTS, Dolby, etc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.4
I wonder how much of that spec the Pyra will support in the end.

I made a thread about this ages ago (especially with CEC in mind), guessing by the non reaction of ED or GTA04 I don't think anything like this will be implemented

 

I'm curious if the Pyra will meet USB logo/license specs (regardless of whether ED chooses to pursue it).
 

I doubt that. I have only light experience in that field in one case though: my old company wanted one of their devices certified, but they weren't approved, because of a similar (eSATA through USB connector) "reusage" of a Mini-USB port  (you could also plugin a custom mobile diagnostic device, that would have been too expensive to redesign to act as a USB host). My old company just said "f**k it" and used the logo anyway for the first 2000 or so units, because the casing was already completed back then and they did not want to spend the money on redoing it and as they were not manufacturing consumer products it was very unlikely that they get sued.

 

[Swordfish II]

HDMI is a proprietary format. In order to use it you need to pay a licensing fee.  Period.  There is no (legal) way to use HDMI without paying royalties.  This fee is $10'000 every year you are selling the product plus 15 cents per unit sold.
You can use the DVI over HDMI, but that's just the connector, it is using the DVI format so no need to pay HDMI fees.
If you "reasonably" include the logo then the licensing fee drops from 15 cents to 5 cents.
If you can't afford $10'000 there's a lower cost $5000 per year plus $1 per unit sold.
It's not a trademark license, it's patent, like MP3 or GIF.

The issue is WHO pays that patent.  The chip manufacturers that sell ED the chips, or ED, or both?

 

[WizardStan]

The issue is WHO pays that patent.  The chip manufacturers that sell ED the chips, or ED, or both?

For HDMI it's the final product manufacturer: EvilDragon in this case.  The chip manufacturers don't need to pay the fee.

 

[ible]

since the Pyra is an open source computing device, it isn't an end product until the user has configured it to their heart's specification, and therefore the HDMI royalties only apply once the user then sells the device with non-factory-default settings .

 

[WizardStan]

I somehow doubt that kind of logic would work if they decided to take a legal route against him.