Video Game Responsible For Murder

[PinkSpider]

It was the victim who actually had the game btw:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page....me=pub&aid=3918

Now what do we conclude from that? The possession of video games kills you

Burns all violent games I own... I dont wanna die (all the time)

 

[Bobsonsirjonny]

excuse me, you miss-quoted me I did not say people cant get brainwashed, I meant games cant do that.

Excuse me, but I dont think I did. You should have finished your sentence off properly. But even if I did - it would have no bearing on my counter argument. From your sentence I grant that you could have meant either. I will quote you again.

playing games does not necessitate a particular action response, killers dont enjoy games and become inspired to be violent, they already have a particular leaning towards violence and see something they enjoy/relate to in games...you cant get brainwashed.

Also, have you worked in psychiactrics? Have you seen the case files of some screwed up kids?

And as regarding Germany, people werent brainwashed a lot of people were too scared to go against the common consensus, I can imagine anyone would be terrified in such a situation to go against the norm...

Rubbish.

It wasnt just fear that turned them. After World War One, Germany was forced into the Treaty of Versias. This treaty effectivly crippled them - leaving a nation weak and angry. Along came Hitler and said "Its the Jews that have done this to you". Germany wanted a scape goat so went along with Hitler. Hitler then preached his philosophy to the masses - the heart of which was a book he wrote called Mein Kampf (I need to check the spelling of that). This book was read out daily in schools. and used as the handbook for the Hitler Youth (think boy scouts, girl guides - but for nazi's) Taking as a premise the Jesuit saying "Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man" it breed hatred into these children.. Of course this is an over simplification, but essentially this is what happened.


If a book can change ones views, why not a video game? Surely the effects of a game are more accessable. For a start you dont need to be able to read to comprehend the game.

Words have power, so do visuals. Why else do we have this thing called Advertising, and Marketing. One of the projects Im working on at the moment is to try and persuade people that they need to buy a house in France... Im not an Ad man, Im a designer - but the crux of marketing is to try and persuade somebody that what they have is not good enough, that they are not good enough unless they have xyz.. Essentially this is a form of brainwashing. Do not underestimate the fragility of the mind. It is after all the most complex computer ever created, and therefor it can be programmed.

(edited due to typos)

 

[Mosch]

And as regarding Germany, people werent brainwashed a lot of people were too scared to go against the common consensus, I can imagine anyone would be terrified in such a situation to go against the norm...

Rubbish.

It wasnt just fear that turned them. After World War One, Germany was forced into the Treaty of Versias. This treaty effectivly crippled them - leaving a nation weak and angry. Along came Hitler and said "Its the Jews that have done this to you". Germany wanted a scape goat so went along with Hitler. Hitler then preached his philosophy to the masses - the heart of which was a book he wrote called Mein Kampf (I need to check the spelling of that). This book was read out daily in schools. and used as the handbook for the Hitler Youth (think boy scouts, girl guides - but for nazi's) Taking as a premise the Jesuit saying "Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man" it breed hatred into these children.. Of course this is an over simplification, but essentially this is what happened.

Being German and having spoken with many, many people that fought in World War 2 and lived under the Nazi regime, I think I should say something too.

It seems that the truth is far more simple than you all think. It all boils down to the following: German people under Hitler had food, work and lead a more or less good life. I talked to my grandparents and even to my great-grandparents. They are almost ashamed of it, but they could not say bad things anout Hitler (well, except for the obvious.... man, this is harder to explain than I thought). Of course it was a different time then. Hitler provided an easy answer to all the misfortune (the Jews) and eventhough not everyone believed it, you would not speak openly against him because he had the power to invade your private life and imprison you for life under inhuman conditions, or even have you and your family killed.
Hitler did not need to convince the whole population. It was enough to have a loyal retinue that allowed him to operate. For the simple people on the street it basically was fear and relief that made them tolerate Hitler - a strange combination, but that is exactly how they tell about it.

My grandmother told me a story once, about when she was attacked and some German soldiers helped her. Of course she was glad. After that incident, what reason did she have to say bad things about them? Germans mostly had a good life under Hitler. And, believe it or not, very very few people actually had an idea about the Concentration Camps.
On a mildly related note, everyone I talked to thought the SS soldiers were pigs and told me that they were violent and untrustworthy even towards us (=my family), eventhough we are "arisch" (my grandfather even got a document detailing that he was arian - he still has it somewhere).
You might see it as brainwashing.... but I think it was a mixture of fear and hope.

PS: The spelling is correct, it is "Mein Kampf" ("My Fight"). Buying this book is a crime here in Germany, just having it isn't. That always made me chuckle


Damn, we start with video games and end with history

 

[Rico]

Thanks for that, very informative info... I didn't know much about how Germans themselves responded to the WW2 events.

 

[Rico]

On the website Pinkspider links to, I found this article. Maybe we can agree on this opinion:

Grand Theft Auto is the gaming equivalent of a crime movie; it's violent and explicit, but that violence exists in the context of genuinely good storytelling and gameplay. Manhunt, however, is more like a snuff movie. It's a title which delights in its own violence, which encourages players to commit more and more unpleasant murders, and which focuses its entire gameplay on causing pain and killing in-game characters - and in a gritty, realistic setting no less.

As understandable as the grief and anger of the Pakeerah family is, their son would not be alive today if Manhunt had been banned. But Rockstar do not emerge from this affair smelling of roses, and the games industry needs to mature past the knee-jerk reaction of defending all of its titles. The oft-repeated spectacle of the industry being hauled over the coals for the alleged influence of its products on impressionable minds isn't going to go away any time soon; but game makers could help the case a lot by trying to push the boundaries in terms of gameplay, rather than gore.

GTA does a Tarantino-style presentation of crime, with comedy and cartoonish graphics. Anyone who has played Manhunt will tell you it is aimed to be as realistic and engrossing as possible. This is to create the effect of fear and suspense, but obviously it has a side-effect in this case. It's supposed to look like a snuff movie, right down to the VCR-style cutscenes and constant narration of how much the audience will love what you do. It does however stress that you need to do these actions to get out of death row, so it's not like it's encouraging people to do it for fun. Since violence to you is also equally gritty and nasty, it doesn't glorify it. If anything, I'd be more put off from doing anything in the game (beyond obvious common sense) because of the possible harm it would get me into.

 

[oxygene]

PS: The spelling is correct, it is "Mein Kampf" ("My Fight"). Buying this book is a crime here in Germany, just having it isn't. That always made me chuckle

it's not.. the copyright currently belongs to the state government of bavaria, and they'll own it for 70 years after the death of the author, that is, until 2015.

they don't reprint it, and as copyright holder they can prevent anyone else to do it, too - but you can buy old prints..

 

[Ringo]

PS: The spelling is correct, it is "Mein Kampf" ("My Fight"). Buying this book is a crime here in Germany, just having it isn't. That always made me chuckle

it's not.. the copyright currently belongs to the state government of bavaria, and they'll own it for 70 years after the death of the author, that is, until 2015.

they don't reprint it, and as copyright holder they can prevent anyone else to do it, too - but you can buy old prints..

nah... all nazi-antiques and stuff are illigal to trade in germany. It's not a copyright issue.

 

[Bobsonsirjonny]

You might see it as brainwashing.... but I think it was a mixture of fear and hope.

PS: The spelling is correct, it is "Mein Kampf" ("My Fight"). Buying this book is a crime here in Germany, just having it isn't. That always made me chuckle


Damn, we start with video games and end with history

Hehe - video games, history, space, life the univers and everything

Fear, hope, work, food.. You are quite correct. I too have spoken to some German friends of my Father, (all dead now) and they too have a disgust of what they ended up being brought into. Some form of state brainwashing must have played a part to have allowed such evil to propogate. This loops right back to the sense of society, or lack of. A situation in which you are alright, and so become blinkered to the evil around you. You simply do not want to know, and just accept what you are told.... ever read 1984?

Why do the salvation army not preach to a man untill they have fed and clothed him - he is more likely to listen if he has seen direct action to remove him from his misery than words alone. - however, I still think El Diablo missed the point.

The point being that this game did ignite something in him - to what degree, and to how stable this child was is up to those in the medical profession. Its not that the game its self is at fault (in the same way that a gun does not kill a man, the person weilding it does... but does that mean you allow everyone to carry pistols?), its a sociological thing, and what society permitts.

Again - no man is an Island.

Edit - About Mein Kampf, My Dad has a copy of it in his library, he's not a Nazi, hes a Historian. I read once of a case of some kid in the states googling for Nazi stuff and he ordered a copy of said book. He had the FBI after him.. it turns out he was a history student and was writing a paper on WW2.... I dont know how true that is, but I wonder if there is a spy bot that searches for words such as NUCLEAR - sorry I mean WMD's :huh: :blink: Terrorist, September 11th, Osama, Iraq, plan, bomb, america....

If its the case that little lot should send them into a paranoid frenzy..

 

[oxygene]

nah... all nazi-antiques and stuff are illigal to trade in germany. It's not a copyright issue.

http://www.damaschke.de/marginalia/1998/anfrage.shtml

In derselben BGH-Entscheidung wird ausgeführt, daß der antiquarische Handel mit einem einzelnen in der NS-Zeit gedruckten Buch auch dann, wenn auf einem solchen Buch das Hakenkreuz als dessen ursprünglicher Bestandteil vorhanden ist und daher mit diesem zusammen im Rahmen einer üblichen Verkaufspräsentation gezeigt wird, nicht gegen § 86a StGB verstößt (BGHSt 29, 73, 84). Vieles wird jedoch in diesem Bereich von den Umständen des Einzelfalls, insbesondere der "Art der Verkaufspräsentation", abhängen.

 

[sebastian_insua]

Guns dont kill ppl, rappers do

Oh Dear... :lol:

 

[Bobsonsirjonny]

Alas, the GLC are from my home town.

I went to college with one of them.. "Mike Balls" - his real name is Mike Ball. He bumbed around, disrupting the lesson.. eventually he dropped out. He said we were all mugs for working hard..

What is worse the dude was right. He pissed around. He really was a waist of space. A no hoper - the class clown. He tried to get me to eat a load of cannabis resin once telling me it was "brown marzepan.." I was 16 at the time - but not as naive as he thought so declined. I went to university etc etc.. and whos better off?

The dude with balls....

 

[Mosch]

nah... all nazi-antiques and stuff are illigal to trade in germany. It's not a copyright issue.

http://www.damaschke.de/marginalia/1998/anfrage.shtml

In derselben BGH-Entscheidung wird ausgeführt, daß der antiquarische Handel mit einem einzelnen in der NS-Zeit gedruckten Buch auch dann, wenn auf einem solchen Buch das Hakenkreuz als dessen ursprünglicher Bestandteil vorhanden ist und daher mit diesem zusammen im Rahmen einer üblichen Verkaufspräsentation gezeigt wird, nicht gegen § 86a StGB verstößt (BGHSt 29, 73, 84). Vieles wird jedoch in diesem Bereich von den Umständen des Einzelfalls, insbesondere der "Art der Verkaufspräsentation", abhängen.

Thank you, a very interesting link. However, Rico is right too: it is still impossible to get Nazi insignia. Believe me, I tried to get swastika decals once, I got a load of odd looks and the information that that would be illegal here in Germany.

Bobsonsirjonny: I think I can agree with you on all the points you have brought up in your last post. Feel honored
I have read Mein Kampf too, not because I hate Jews or because of Neonazi tendencies, but because I think it is a piece of our history. Think about it: This book is the manifesto of a man practically unique and unrivalled in history, a book about the thoughts of a lunatic, a madman without equal. Just consider: Hitler painted postcards and became leader (Führer) of a whole nation trying to realize or at least not stopping his insane phantasies about his "clean" people. How can you NOT be interested in experiencing what made him tick?

 

[Ringo]

nah... all nazi-antiques and stuff are illigal to trade in germany. It's not a copyright issue.

http://www.damaschke.de/marginalia/1998/anfrage.shtml

In derselben BGH-Entscheidung wird ausgeführt, daß der antiquarische Handel mit einem einzelnen in der NS-Zeit gedruckten Buch auch dann, wenn auf einem solchen Buch das Hakenkreuz als dessen ursprünglicher Bestandteil vorhanden ist und daher mit diesem zusammen im Rahmen einer üblichen Verkaufspräsentation gezeigt wird, nicht gegen § 86a StGB verstößt (BGHSt 29, 73, 84). Vieles wird jedoch in diesem Bereich von den Umständen des Einzelfalls, insbesondere der "Art der Verkaufspräsentation", abhängen.

Now I have a hard time arguing with that... since I can't understand that statement at all (or the google-translation).

However whatever it may say, I didn't actually desagree with your statement about who ownes the rights to the book - I've just herd that trade of nazi-antiques or generally nazi-stuff is illegal in Germany.

Just something I herd once on some antiques-show, that covered a exibition of nazi-antiques. They just mentioned that an exibition like that would not be legal in Germany - as well as trading nazi-antiques.

 

[oxygene]

However whatever it may say, I didn't actually desagree with your statement about who ownes the rights to the book - I've just herd that trade of nazi-antiques or generally nazi-stuff is illegal in Germany.

Just something I herd once on some antiques-show, that covered a exibition of nazi-antiques. They just mentioned that an exibition like that would not be legal in Germany - as well as trading nazi-antiques.

the quoted excerpt refers to a decision of federal supreme court, that selling "mein kampf" in an antique shop is allowed as long as it's context free as much as possible.

so, you may have it somewhere among your hundreds and thousands of other books and if someone requests it, you may pull it out and sell it.. you might even make a table "historical relevant books", and promote it there.

otoh you'll likely get in trouble if you try to open an "aryans' corner", featuring this book.

otoh the "nazi insignia" thing mostly lives of the context - I doubt people are very interested in steel crosses from the german army of the 1890s.

 

[Mosch]

In derselben BGH-Entscheidung wird ausgeführt, daß der antiquarische Handel mit einem einzelnen in der NS-Zeit gedruckten Buch auch dann, wenn auf einem solchen Buch das Hakenkreuz als dessen ursprünglicher Bestandteil vorhanden ist und daher mit diesem zusammen im Rahmen einer üblichen Verkaufspräsentation gezeigt wird, nicht gegen § 86a StGB verstößt (BGHSt 29, 73, 84). Vieles wird jedoch in diesem Bereich von den Umständen des Einzelfalls, insbesondere der "Art der Verkaufspräsentation", abhängen.

The very same decision by the BGH says that trade of antiques concerning a single book printed in the time of the NS does not, if it exhibits the swastika as a native part and is shown together with it in the action of selling, violate § 86a StGB (BGHSt 29, 73, 84). It will however probably be decided individually based on the actual presentation.

Man, that was hard. I'm not going to translate the whole page for you into a better english though

 

[fatass]

i heard this story on the news and it pissed me of so much what a bitchy mum blamin her sons death on influense of a game BITCH :angry:

 

[pubjoe]

i heard this story on the news and it pissed me of so much what a bitchy mum blamin her sons death on influense of a game BITCH :angry:

Is that supposed to be a joke?

...*sigh* I was gonna come down on you about that comment, but I can't be arsed. Your not going to be able to read it anyway.

 

[Bobsonsirjonny]

i heard this story on the news and it pissed me of so much what a bitchy mum blamin her sons death on influense of a game BITCH :angry:

Is that supposed to be a joke?

...*sigh* I was gonna come down on you about that comment, but I can't be arsed. Your not going to be able to read it anyway.

Aye, its not worth the effort. In time he will grow up and realise that life is more complex - but of course hes too young to be aware of all the external influences, and no doubt hes being different, by wearing xyz like every "alternative" kid out there..

 

[mattmagoo]

HOLY CRAP, did anyone read the article in the papers this morning about the 6 guys that battered each other to death with baseball bats coz they were argueing over an XBOX

 

[finty]

HOLY CRAP, did anyone read the article in the papers this morning about the 6 guys that battered each other to death with baseball bats coz they were argueing over an XBOX

I laughed my ass of at that. An xbox and some old rags to be exact.