Veganism

[TeDaDeS]

A yes, vitamins are important, especially B12. You can get them from eating certain foods, but a supplement somewhat guarantees that you have this arranged.
And in case you really worry your GP is probably able to check your B12 levels. Not everyone reacts the same to a diet, so one person is fine while others run into issues. So do keep an eye out for those things, just in case.

 

[pyrat]

B12 never showed any negative side effects so they just started spiking everything with it.

That's not what my doctor told me. Apparently you can overdose yourself with B12.
The thing is the body has little capacity to assimilate B12, so if you eat a lot in one take, chances are you'll poop most of it out.
But if you take little doses very often, and you start with a healthy reserve of B12, you might end up having too much of it.

I also have gummy bears with like 10000% of a daily dose in the package.

No point, it won't get into your bloodstream if you take a lot at once. A little bit of it might.

If you want to replace meat with candy, that actually works quite well.

? I lost you there.

No, thats nonsense. Someone years ago miscalculated that by a two digit factor and people keep repeating that like a broken record.

Ah, ok sorry. Whatever. The thing is that you can get iron from vegetables, look it up. You cna get it from animal blood, but you get it from vegetables too. If it's not spinachs, then it's something else.More than one vegetable, actually.

You want green leaves for vitamin K. Thats not a vegan thing tho. If you dont eat green leaves you will die of a stroke, plain fact.

Ok.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

Some say that iceberg lettuce is the least nutritious lettuce there is. I have no idea whether that is true, but I hope it is still nutritious because it is my favourite lettuce. Though I like many lettuces.

Here is my raw tomato ketchup recipe to eat lettuce with:
Tomatoes
Bell Pepper (important for the colour as well, it needs to be nice dark red)
Spicy pepper
salt
parsley
dates
basil
lemon juice or citron juice (must be very tiny amounts)
avocado (but not too much as that will ruin the colour of the sauce, just a little bit to make it thicker and add a bit of it's flavour)

I am not sure about the exact proportions, as I just do it on intuition and taste in-between. It tends to turn out really well.

I used to use it like a normal dressing but now I just cut my lettuce in pieces and then grab them with chopsticks and dip them in the ketchup as if they are tortillas. This is my favourite way to eat lettuce. Though a few years ago I made a cashew dressing which I liked a lot as well using blended cashews.

An easier dressing is to just blend honey and orange juice. It tastes really well, especially if your salad also contains sweet cherry tomatoes. Of course, due to honey it is not vegan, unfortunately. And too be honest the other 2 dressings are tastier, anyway.

Another good option is to make guacamole and then roll the lettuce leafs around it, making guacamole rolls. Really fun to eat.

Talking about this makes me hungry for vitamin K.

 

[elw3]

That's not what my doctor told me. Apparently you can overdose yourself with B12.
The thing is the body has little capacity to assimilate B12, so if you eat a lot in one take, chances are you'll poop most of it out.
But if you take little doses very often, and you start with a healthy reserve of B12, you might end up having too much of it.

Yesyes, but the phenomen seems to stem from this very reason, people started taking B vitamins (this is actually a range of numbers with 12 being rare in plants) in masses because it is in everything now.
So take a bottle of redbull combined with some supplement gummy bears and your daily vitamin pills and you get too high quite quick and many eat that daily.
A quick google search sadly doesnt show b12 but look at this b6 value, just look at it! Are these numbers even real?

Spoiler

Anyway, yes the body will poop out what you eat too much since the guts can only absorb a certain amount per day.
Even more it appears that taking one very huge dosage from time to time is better than taking one daily pill for many vitamins. Ive read that quite often.
One of the reasons is that the guts greatly control how much of what we eat is actually absorbed and daily small doses make it harder than one large mass.
There is actually a diet method based on that where you dont mix kinds of food so the guts can decide what to digest, sounds sensible.

The thing is that you can get iron from vegetables

Well you can get everything from plants but they are mainly water. So to get on your levels you need to eat a lot.

 

[netcat]

Vegan doesn't suck

Vegetarian is a natural subset of foods. Like half of Italian food is vegetarian, simply because it suits the dish. Veganism as mentioned is harder and usually requires completely substituting ingredients. Surely this upsets many chefs because they have to compromise their recipes.

That said I love Indian and Ethiopian food which is often (naturally) vegan.

Then there's the whole fake meat industry which is completely sickening. Factory produced garbage. This is the worste food you can eat. A lot of vegans resort to this.

B12 never showed any negative side effects

B12 may have cured my tinittus.

@JDAY - your problem is almost certainly mainly caffein. The cocktail of substances blurs everything. Veganism is not your answer. For you it would just mean much worse food.

 

[elw3]

Lets put a warning on it, curing tinitus is a serious problem!

Then there's the whole fake meat industry which is completely sickening. Factory produced garbage. This is the worste food you can eat. A lot of vegans resort to this.

On the one side i agree with that statement but on the other i tried a few products this summer, mostly garbage but one pack of sausages where amazing.
On the long run development of such dishes is necessary, currently this is just to try getting meat eaters to try something new but in the future we will likely see more heavy processed food to guarantee that resources are used optimal, and if its processed anyway we could just as well have it taste like meat.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

There is actually a diet method based on that where you dont mix kinds of food so the guts can decide what to digest, sounds sensible.

It is sensible. When food is consumed the stomach and bowels are regulated by an "extra brain". Things like acidity level, retention times, enzymes action, bile amounts and composition, etc are all regulated to a set of settings that is specialised for digesting whatever food you are consuming.

So if you consume 1 kind of food then your stomach and bowels will have settings that are specialised for that 1 food, digesting it as well as they could. But if you combine different kinds of food for which different settings are optimal then the body will have to compromise and pick a general set of settings which is sub-optimal for every individual food that you are consuming. Digestion will thus be sub-optimal which compromises health.

You only have one set of stomach and bowels and thus can only have one set of settings which will have to be used for every food in your meal.

A good example of foods interfering with each other's digestion is that of starch and proteins. Starch can only be digested by enzymes which stop functioning in a strong acid. Proteins can only be broken down in a strong acid. Your stomach can have only one acidity level. So if you combine starchy foods with foods that are high in protein then your stomach has a problem. Both protein and starch will damage the body when left undigested so meals which combine starch and protein are very unhealthy, even if all the individual foods of which the meal consists would have been reasonably healthy if eaten by themselves.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

Both protein and starch will damage the body when left undigested so meals which combine starch and protein are very unhealthy

So the classic "meat and potatoes" that probably a majority of westerners (or fish and rice for other continental regions) eat is actually quite bad for them?

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

Then there's the whole fake meat industry which is completely sickening. Factory produced garbage. This is the worste food you can eat. A lot of vegans resort to this.

I think many vegans do so only in the beginning while they get used to real foods. At least that is the story I hear a lot and it is also my story. I used to consume a lot of so-called "meat substitutes" because processed meat was what I was used to. I barely was used to any vegan foods. But later on I get used to real foods such as fruits, orange juice, raw tomato soup, etc and now those are the foods I crave instead.

Either way, if you want to avoid processing then veganism is definitely the way to go. Fruits, vegetables, nuts, lettuces, herbs, and salts provide for a very rich diet with many thousands of different raw dishes to make.
In contrast, meat is virtually always processed. If you live on a meat diet then you likely live on a processed diet.

And I think that avoiding processing is a good idea. Nature really cannot be beat. The best way to get nutrition is by using nothing but our own natural digestive system. Cooking is just a crude way of predigesting foods and damages the foods greatly. What a waste to resort to such crude methods considering we are equipped with a digestive system that is unimaginably advanced, even if it only works properly for a relatively small collection of foods (that is still so large that it would take more than a lifetime to even consume 1% of what it offers).

Either way it works for me so far, I will have to wait to see whether I get debilitating deficiencies and become emaciated later on.

 

[b_o_b]

So the classic "meat and potatoes" that probably a majority of westerners (or fish and rice for other continental regions) eat is actually quite bad for them?

Veganism (and other diets) isn't only a diet it is also a belief system. I know because I once was one and know a few. Also one of my peers recently stopped being a vegan because of health issues. Not saying it is bad, but saying it is the best for you or everyone is just ignoring the complexity of nutrition.
IMO meat and potatoes are fine, there is no science backing up it isn't. A ton of claims you see in the media are biased and based on bad science.

I like the channel of nutrition made simple. He admits it when there is not scientific proof and if he thinks there is he shows the data. He also deep dives in some studies and appears to have no personal stake in any of the diets. Anyone stating his or her diet is the most healthy, even if he/she sounds really knowledgeable, should be approached with skepticism.

https://www.youtube.com/@NutritionMadeSimple/videos

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

So the classic "meat and potatoes" that probably a majority of westerners (or fish and rice for other continental regions) eat is actually quite bad for them?

Yes. This combination of food is filling because it indeed stays in the body for a long time due to the problems the body has digesting it. If it is eaten in the evening then it may still be rotting in the body in the morning. Something which actually feels quite nice compared to the alternative, which is having an empty stomach growling as it cleans itself up from the waste that was consumed earlier in life. And thus is created an addiction to junkfood, the addiction where people have to keep their stomach filled so that it can never clean up.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

If it is eaten in the evening then it may still be rotting in the body in the morning

I must admit that I'm not fully convinced, although it is true that most "diets" are based on more opinion than actual (holistic) science.

Having said that, issues such as indigestion, flatulence and poor BO could be seen as both indications of a poor diet, and also imply that your assertions may have some merit in this case.

 

[JDTAY]

@JDAY - your problem is almost certainly mainly caffein. The cocktail of substances blurs everything. Veganism is not your answer. For you it would just mean much worse food.

Don’t worry, I’ve decided to be vegetarian, not vegan, and I have given up caffeine. That said, my body is still having trouble staying awake without caffeine, but I’ll try to find a fix for that.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

Veganism (and other diets) isn't only a diet it is also a belief system. I know because I once was one and know a few

At the risk of likely offending someone here (please don't take it personally, as my opinion is based only on a couple of vegans to whom I have been acquainted)... I do see veganism as basically a selfish diet. It seems needlessly restrictive (even to extremes like not eating figs as they may contain wasps / eggs), but more than that it imposes on friends and family who need to cater to it (the list of non-vegan produce is truly a mine field - e.g. jelly babies, Guinness, soy sauce, which contain skin & bones, fish bladders and beetles respectively, although Guinness now do apparently claim to be vegan).

That being said, there are good arguments to be made around the protection of animal welfare, so I don't blame anyone for making that kind of a statement.

Thanks for the link by the way, will check it out soon.

Post automatically merged: Dec 23, 2022

That said, my body is still having trouble staying awake without caffeine, but I’ll try to find a fix for that

Mental stimulation and exercise.

No, not that though.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

Veganism (and other diets) isn't only a diet it is also a belief system. I know because I once was one and know a few. Also one of my peers recently stopped being a vegan because of health issues. Not saying it is bad, but saying it is the best for you or everyone is just ignoring the complexity of nutrition.
IMO meat and potatoes are fine, there is no science backing up it isn't. A ton of claims you see in the media are biased and based on bad science.

I like the channel of nutrition made simple. He admits it when there is not scientific proof and if he thinks there is he shows the data. He also deep dives in some studies and appears to have no personal stake in any of the diets. Anyone stating his or her diet is the most healthy, even if he/she sounds really knowledgeable, should be approached with skepticism.

https://www.youtube.com/@NutritionMadeSimple/videos

Even science is a belief system. You have to believe in it for it to benefit you. Evidence is useless for those who do not believe.

As for me personally, I make use of science. I am no scientist. I am merely an amateur reading biology books in his spare time, but I do make heavy use of science.

However what is important in understanding where I come from is to know that ultimately, when it comes to health, I am not interested in science for it's own sake. I am not interested in acquiring scientific evidence. I became interested in health solely because disease was ruining my life. I am steered by an intense desire to regain my health and to never again become as sick as I used to be. So my truth-finding process is based on personal experimentation. I make whatever I believe in work for me. And if it fails, then I find out what my mistake was and adjust me beliefs accordingly. I am looking for facts which work for me, regardless of what science's stance on them are.

So my research is success driven, not science driven. This is why on the one hand I can come up with scientific facts which I read from science books and which I managed to apply and have success with in practice, while on the other hand I talk about nature and make appeals to nature. Nature healed me, so I trust nature. Simple as that. Through natural methods I have healed ailments for which people who follow science take life-long medication.

This means not everything I say is backed by science. Some things are, for example, the way our body handles starches and proteins is a well-known scientific fact which I read from basic biology textbooks; but almost anything I say about being natural is just based on my personal success. It worked for me, and that is all I care about. As always, I suggest you do your own research if health is what you seek. Listen to all sides and keep whatever is good. I am not a doctor and not qualified to be one, either.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

but more than that it imposes on friends and family who need to cater to it (the list of non-vegan produce is truly a mine field - e.g. jelly babies, Guinness, soy sauce, which contain skin & bones, fish bladders and beetles respectively, although Guinness now do apparently claim to be vegan).

Actually, I prepare my own food. Me going vegan only meant less work for my housemates. As a vegan, especially one as strict as me, you should not expect others to cater to you. Instead you just need to cater to yourself.

Some still may not like that you eat your own food, but you have to have a spine. It is your life, and if you want to stop abusing animals, life sustainably, and be healthy, then you need to go for it. Do not forfeit good ethics to please those lacking in ethics. Rudeness is bringing harm to the environment and to innocent creatures for one's mere convenience.

This issue is a specific case of a general phenomenon, that being that altruistic people displease selfish people. For example, an honest friend annoys a liar because instead of covering lies he will berate. And a fair friend annoys a thief because instead of joining in theft he might return stolen goods. And likewise someone who eats vegan to spare the environment and to be just to non-human animals is a bother to people who live selfishly in this regard and are thus inconvenient by these ethics.

Would you become a thief to convenience a thief or become a liar to satisfy a liar? If not, then why become a carnist to please a carnist? You must do what is right, no matter how many wrongdoers it displeases.

BTW, I am not saying that carnists are bad people. I have been a carnist for most of my life. We all act unethical in certain regards. Good people do bad things. However carnism is unethical, the act, not the people, is something bad. We must face that truth. Animals are being tortured in literal concentration camps complete with small cages and gas houses and this is something which we ought to not even tolerate, let alone support. It really is time for people to wake up to this and make a stand against it. It takes humility to admit you were wrong, but it takes admitting that you were wrong to be right.

 

[b_o_b]

That being said, there are good arguments to be made around the protection of animal welfare, so I don't blame anyone for making that kind of a statement.

If you think killing animals is murder ( (c) the Smiths) you will use every trick in the book to convince others they should stop eating meat and the first person you will convince is yourself.

 

[b_o_b]

So my research is success driven, not science driven.

Totally fine with n=1 - but your medicine could be someone else's poison.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

but your medicine could be someone else's poison.

That is true. For example, laxative herbs can be nice for someone with constipation but not for someone with diarrhea. And fasting is generally great but do not go fasting if you are emaciated.

The details of the techniques of natural hygiene need to be tailored to individuals. This is a science and an art. Performing it properly requires one be learned in the medical sciences and be experienced healing many people. I have neither qualification, so I am not giving medical prescriptions. Though through practice and research I have become pretty decent at healing myself. The process was slow and painful with many missteps made, but the result is pretty good.

 

[b_o_b]

I have neither qualification, so I am not giving medical prescriptions. Though through practice and research I have become pretty decent at healing myself.

Depending on genetics your metabolism also change when you get older, so it is a lifelong struggle with a lot of temptations.
If I didn't have my lizard brain under control I would drink beer, wine and eat a ton of ice-cream every day. Sometimes the lizard wins though