Too Many Firmwares

[sam fisher]

This is actually an interesting discussion when people don't stoop to slagging each other off. As Parkydr pointed out, if you don't like a certain member's posts then there is an ignore function. Please use it rather than letting threads deteriorate into childish banter. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I believe.

THANK you. That was excellent. This forum needs more people like you who can recognize that an effective conversation requires people who don't have an immediate knee-jerk reaction to label anything that doesn't cast their opinions in a positive light as "trolling". Otherwise threads just turn into giant circlejerks.

Unlike you, Alex has made a good few games, some in fenix, but then rewritten using C and SDL, Airplyr for example. Did you see that? ""Using C and SDL" "C and SDL" "and SDL" "SDL SDL SDL SDL".

He's not just got evidence of a game, but hes released many. You never provided any evidence of your game. Sow us a screen shot from the PC build, its supposed to be platform independant right? Just compile a PC build and show us a screen shot. I will apologise for speculating you haven't got/made a game once I see a screen shot, or some evidence of its existence.

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

Not fair! You have at least a billion more handhelds in your collection than me! Seriously, what's the Neo Geo thumbstick like? Is it Metal Slug's dream?

Getting completely off-topic, for one or two more sentences, I see you have Call of Duty 3 in your sig and I take it you've mastered the controls now. Would you recommend me buying it given the fact I've got it for the 360?

Takes a little getting used to, but it was interesting playing with PC-like controls on a home console. I've been playing resistance non-stop, and those controls were a pain, but I mastered them and now I own at that game. Thing is (dont ask me why as I have no idea), pc FPS's and the wii (since similar controls are used) give me major motion sickness. For some reason I simply cannot fathom, the ps3's controls dont give me nearly as much. I have to play for a couple hours straight before I even feel remotely nauseous. I guess it has to do with something about the entire hand motions moving the curser around while I shoot. I think because it's a controller and both hands are on it, it's not as bad for me.

I told you I dont know why! Meh. Shouldnt bother you though, I like the controls for FPS's on the wii.

And yes, the NGPC joystick is excellent.

 

[paxl13]

Hey DCMG, do you still have some popcorn.

Edit : After trying to formulate my comment , I realise that it would not lead ot anything...
I'll get back on my game programming !

*eat popcorn*

 

[Alex.]

Had I intended it just for use on a PC, it would've been bloated and slow

Judging from your previous posts about Stargazer, you refused to make any compromises (so far) regarding scaling anything down, and run the same engine on both the GP2X and on the PC. You also say that it runs slow on the GP2X. Seeing the quote above, this leads me to believe even more that you wrote it with the PC in mind - talking in circles anyone? :huh:

Your comments indicate you haven't actually written anything using SDL or you wouldn't have made that statement.

I did write a number of C games using SDL, and have quite a few in the making. Granted, most of what I have done so far don't have as many layers of graphics and massive amounts of sprites on-screen, as you claim Stargazer to have. I fully agree with the fact that after a certain amount of blitting, you hit a bottleneck that drops you to 55 or so fps in a matter of less than 10 sprites. Putting OGG on top of that only slows it down even more.

It's a matter of design. It's a matter of acknowledging these weaknesses of the GP2X, and dealing with them in an acceptable manner. That means optimizing your general code as much as possible (which I believe you have done already), switching to a faster library to handle the framebuffer (such as rlyeh's minimal library), using the second cpu for OGG decoding (I believe Dzz wrote an article on how to achieve that), and if that still isn't enough, and it probably won't be, start giving up some of the graphics layers. With a bit of creative design, users won't even notice that it's missing. Gameplay is kind after all, and one more or less background layer won't make much of a difference in that aspect.

I'll be honest and admit that at this time I do not possess the knowledge to do the fancier things I talked about in the previous paragraph (such as using the second core for OGG decoding, or using rlyeh's minimal lib), but you obviously have a lot more programming experience than I do. Judging by your more technical posts, I'd wager you have some form of formal training in this domain, which I only just started. That's why for the time being I'm sticking with C and SDL, and doing the most with what I have. Most importantly, I'm having fun with it, so what more could I want?

This is a very important facet of my thinking you must understand-- if you were faced with the choice of making your engine work only on one system, a system with a near-broken thumbstick that makes the game no fun to play, but you'd gain some marginal performance improvements and lose compatibility with every other platform (including those with working controls), would you do it? Or would you sacrifice compatibility with the system that the game isn't fun to play on anyway, to support platforms that run it better anyway, with controls that more than 5% of the players will find tolerable? Which would you pick?

There you go, you just admitted you never had the GP2X's specific hardware in mind when writing the GP2X version of Stargazer, but merely expected it to work as a port. Well that simply isn't going to happen. If you have such a complex game in mind and are unwilling to put some effort in hardware-speific optimizations, that is entirely your own fault, and not the platform's.

- Alex

 

[moxie]

This is actually an interesting discussion when people don't stoop to slagging each other off. As Parkydr pointed out, if you don't like a certain member's posts then there is an ignore function. Please use it rather than letting threads deteriorate into childish banter. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I believe.

THANK you. That was excellent. This forum needs more people like you who can recognize that an effective conversation requires people who don't have an immediate knee-jerk reaction to label anything that doesn't cast their opinions in a positive light as "trolling". Otherwise threads just turn into giant circlejerks.

Would just like to add that I agree completely with The MASTER here - This is an interesting discussion to follow. I also happen to agree with Alex just above, but still

 

[krosfyah]

Interesting as it may be, it has nothing to do with having too many firmwares.

 

[Alex.]

Interesting as it may be, it has nothing to do with having too many firmwares.

Well, just don't choke on your popcorn there

- Alex

 

[Epicenter]

Alex-- My apologies for my rash assumption that you hadn't written a game using SDL before. I see you do have experience there. However, you should know it is very possible to write a game engine with it that achieves the same framerate on a PC as on a console. Of course, vsync will limit it to one framerate, so you won't see that the PC version has the capability to generate more frames each second than say, the GP2X does-- but you'd see the same performance level. That's where I was at with it from the start-- coding ON a PC *for* the GP2X, and knowing the same code would run well on a PC as well.

You see, I never had the most confidence in the GP2X after I got mine as I did before it came out-- there were too many problems threatening to spell doom for how fun the end result would be. The stick most notably, the blitter issues that could force us to start backing down on the graphics, etc. so I wasn't going to respond to a lack of confidence in the viability of the platform by making the engine full of code that would run ONLY on it. I hope that makes some degree of sense.

As for being creative and the player never knowing the difference if we scaled things back-- we can't lie to ourselves in the same way. With such work and time investment you wouldn't want to achieve your goals?

I completely understand where you're coming from and yes, if I had confidence in the GP2X I'd be more willing to pound on it night and day to squeeze every FPS out of it while coming as close to the original mark as possible. But with other platforms around that don't require comprimise, like say-- the Dreamcast, I can't think of a good reason to. Let's take a look at that; a CPU with incredibly fast integer performance, APPALLINGLY fast floating point performance (in excess of 1GFLOP), 16MB of RAM, 4MB of texture memory, the ability for the GPU to read from main RAM with DMA, a whole host of useful GPU hardware functions ... such a system needs barely any changes at all to run a high-end SDL game even if it was intended for PC. With more viable solutions, seriously, why custom tailor to the system that'll be the least fun?

The crazy thing is I would've given the GP2X so much more of a chance if GPH just fixed the fucking stick. But it seems they'd rather just re-release the same thing in Value packs and repaint the unit instead of make the effort. A shame really.. but I won't go into that again.

He's not just got evidence of a game, but hes released many. You never provided any evidence of your game. Sow us a screen shot from the PC build, its supposed to be platform independant right? Just compile a PC build and show us a screen shot. I will apologise for speculating you haven't got/made a game once I see a screen shot, or some evidence of its existence.

There'll be a proper development blog with screenshots and information on the game's development since we're opening that up to anyone who's interested-- the project probably won't be commercial. So if you want I'll keep you informed.

 

[gaterooze]

The crazy thing is I would've given the GP2X so much more of a chance if GPH just fixed the fucking stick. But it seems they'd rather just re-release the same thing in Value packs and repaint the unit instead of make the effort. A shame really.. but I won't go into that again.

I keep telling you, the stick is better in the Mk2. Not perfect, but definitely improved.

And there is always the D-Pad mods from DaveC & others.

 

[kevcal]

Errr.. anyway can we get hold of FW 3.0.0 anywhere (apart from buying a value pack) ?

(Much as I find the EC threads within threads intersting (honest, I actually do) ).

 

[J201605]

But with other platforms around that don't require comprimise, like say-- the Dreamcast, I can't think of a good reason to. Let's take a look at that; a CPU with incredibly fast integer performance, APPALLINGLY fast floating point performance (in excess of 1GFLOP), 16MB of RAM, 4MB of texture memory, the ability for the GPU to read from main RAM with DMA, a whole host of useful GPU hardware functions ... such a system needs barely any changes at all to run a high-end SDL game even if it was intended for PC. With more viable solutions, seriously, why custom tailor to the system that'll be the least fun?

Nice i just bought a dreamcast... thatd be cool if you ported it to that.

The crazy thing is I would've given the GP2X so much more of a chance if GPH just fixed the fucking stick. But it seems they'd rather just re-release the same thing in Value packs and repaint the unit instead of make the effort. A shame really.. but I won't go into that again.

Could a dpad mod restore your confidence?

 

[sam fisher]

There'll be a proper development blog with screenshots and information on the game's development since we're opening that up to anyone who's interested-- the project probably won't be commercial. So if you want I'll keep you informed.

Well. When thats up I promise to apologise, and I also look forward to seeing, stargazer, your game.

 

[Orkie]

I keep telling you, the stick is better in the Mk2. Not perfect, but definitely improved.

And there is always the D-Pad mods from DaveC & others.

It is improved in one way (i.e. the bias has been shifted to horizontal/vertical instead of diagonal), but that doesn't change the fact that there is a very long distance between opposite directions - too long for some kinds of games. There aren't any d-pad mods you can buy yet either, and even when they are being sold, not everybody will have one and it is best to support the standard than something only a few people will be using.

 

[gaterooze]

It is improved in one way (i.e. the bias has been shifted to horizontal/vertical instead of diagonal), but that doesn't change the fact that there is a very long distance between opposite directions - too long for some kinds of games.

It's about the same distance between left & right as on the PSP's D-pad (due to the gaps in the crosshair).

May not be to everyone's taste, but it works a-ok for me in shooters.

 

[Epicenter]

Orkie summed up my views on the MK2 stick perfectly. Not enough improvement since it's the same stick, and in the end, I can't code for hardware 99% or more of the GP2X user base doesn't have. Otherwise, I'll get comments like 'why do the controls feel broken' and be unable to fix them because I don't even have the same experience as everyone else.

Suffice to say I've played my share of shooters on the GP2X from gngeo2x emulating Strikers 1945 and Blazing Star to MAME emulating Aero Fighters, to MD/Genesis shooters like M.U.S.H.A. and Gleylancer, and the SDL-based Noiz2sa. They were all dreadfully irritating, and pretty much no fun because of it. The controls just can't respond fast enough, and movement feels very wooden. It's easier to control these games with a keyboard than with the GP2X stick. It's funny how such a tiny facet can completely ruin a system like that.

It's about the same distance between left & right as on the PSP's D-pad (due to the gaps in the crosshair).

I never said the PSP had better controls. I find segmented D-Pads to be very irritating and also rather poor for controlling shooters. Even an analog stick is better for that, IMHO. Of course, that's if the game is programmed for analog control, not just responding to being pushed all the way in one direction, or not pushed at all.

 

[gaterooze]

Suffice to say I've played my share of shooters on the GP2X from gngeo2x emulating Strikers 1945 and Blazing Star to MAME emulating Aero Fighters, to MD/Genesis shooters like M.U.S.H.A. and Gleylancer, and the SDL-based Noiz2sa. They were all dreadfully irritating, and pretty much no fun because of it. The controls just can't respond fast enough, and movement feels very wooden.

This is where it comes down to opinion. When I play those same games on the GP2X I have a blast and find them very easy to control.

I cannot objectively say the stick is wonderful. When friends see mine and want to buy one, I warn them that some people hate the stick and they should play with mine for a while first (note: so far, none have noticed anything wrong with the stick). What I can say is that I quite enjoy using it. But by the same token, you cannot objectively say the stick is "broken" or "unusable" -- merely that you hate it. And that is perfectly valid.

 

[krosfyah]

Gunpei2x, he is talking about a MkI stick which is a lot worse, still not broken, but the diagonal bias can be bloody annoying.

I get a bit annoyed too when someone says the stick is crap or broken, but I've just accepted the fact that not everyone has the same level of skill or manual dexterity.. and apparently in this case it seems a lot of GP2x users are just plain rubbish. Unless by some miracle I've received the only unit in existence that has an awesome stick.

Edit: typo

 

[reiboul]

I like the stick too, maybe i come from another planet?
Look at PSP : a f**** dpad, with a REALLY crappy analog thing (don't call that a joystick...)
DS has 2 direction Dpad, same goes for most handelds...
We have a 4 direction Ddigital stick, up to 8 directions, with enough grip to play most games WWAAYYYY more comfortably than on other handelds...
Of course you don't have the latest hi-tech gamepad in your hands, but I think it's best than the mainstream handelds (PSP, DS, GBA...)

 

[Epicenter]

Gunpei2x, he is talking about a MkI stick which is a lot worse, still not broken, but the diagonal bias can be bloody annoying.

I get a bit annoyed too when someone says the stick is crap or broken, but I've just accepted the fact that not everyone has the same level of skill or manual dexterity..

Let me get this straight, you chalk up the GP2X stick to not being poorly selected for a game system, but just requiring 'skill' to use? :lol: That's hilarious. Remember, MK1 and MK2 use the same stick. It's just turned 45 degrees. It still has the swing distance of an 8-direction lightswitch.

Of course you don't have the latest hi-tech gamepad in your hands, but I think it's best than the mainstream handelds (PSP, DS, GBA...)

I'm inclined to very strongly disagree with the sentiment that it's superior to the control scheme of the DS or GBA. The original DS had an irritating clicky D-Pad but it's still more responsive than the GP2X stick. The DS Lite's d-pad is fantastic, and the GBA's was even better as it had a more 'gentle' feel to the thumb. The PSP I haven't used extensively enough to make an assertion about, really.. but the GP2X stick is the worst directional control of the bunch from an engineering standpoint.

 

[krosfyah]

Let me get this straight, you chalk up the GP2X stick to not being poorly selected for a game system, but just requiring 'skill' to use?

I don't know if the GP2x was designed to be a game system or not, but YES. If I can use it perfectly and every unit has the same stick, then I can't think of anything other than individual dexterity as being the problem. I wish people would accept the fact that not everyone is having nightmares about the stick. You think it's crap. Fine. Great. I don't. Why can't that be the end of it instead of all the hate-mongering?