GP2X The Pitiful State Of The Open2x Project ..

[torpor]

Is it just apathy? Is it just poor organization? Is it disinterest, or is there something else going on that makes it practically impossible to coordinate ones efforts? With USB-Host now well and truly fixed, I really want to get some work done on folding in new features to the GP2X sysimage .. such as MIDI(MidiShare), such as Powermate, such as adding USB-Keyboard/USB-Mouse/Powermate support to the SDL, etc.

But lately I'm beginning to think that all the hype about the Open2X project is really just a straw man to make people think there is something going on, when really .. there isn't anything.

To me, and I could be wrong, the purpose of the OPEN2X project is to get all the pieces together required to assemble an open, community-supported, hackable firmware consisting of:

-a factory-compatible Linux kernel
-factory-compatible libs
-the basic system tool image rootfs, containing: /bin /usr/bin /etc.

However, as I see it, the OPEN2X project is an abysmal failure so far, for the following reasons:

1. For weeks now I have tried to:

svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/toolchain
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/libs

With nothing but this result:

A	toolchain/binutils-2.16.1/gas/testsuite/gas/d10v/warning-007.s
A	toolchain/binutils-2.16.1/gas/testsuite/gas/d10v/instruction_packing-001.s
A	toolchain/binutils-2.16.1/gas/testsuite/gas/d10v/address-010.l
svn: REPORT request failed on '/svnroot/open2x/!svn/vcc/default'
svn: REPORT of '/svnroot/open2x/!svn/vcc/default': Could not read response body: Secure connection truncated (https://svn.sourceforge.net)

No matter who I talk to, or send email to, or try to catch up with in #gp2xdev, this problem doesn't get fixed. It seems it is impossible to use SourceForge as a centrally organized, easily-used, means of coordinating development among interested parties .. effectively, this is not just a total failure of the OPEN2X 'project' to support the efforts of those wanting to actually get something real done for the Open2X community ideal, but its also a major hindrance to any attempt to coordinate things with fellow hackers.

Plus, notice that this isn't in the list of 'doable' OPEN2X svn commands:

svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/kernel
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/sysimage

Why is that? Both of these pieces of the puzzle should be 'doable' right now .. certainly there exist kernel hackers able to get their custom kernels on the GP2X for interesting purposes: how come this work isn't available to all to build on? Why are people coveting the 'obvious' work they're doing on GPL code instead of sharing it in a community development environment?

2. Very little active progress reports are made to the community-at-large to keep hackers up to date on whats going on. It seems that there are at least 4 different individuals with their own kernel tree's and set of patches for hacking on the GP2X, and either none of these hackers really want to share their work in a community spirit, or just aren't interested in making sure others can use what they've done to build on top of it and get things rolling all the way end to 'final, compatible, community-based firmware image'. Have you OPEN2X guys just gotten interested in other platforms, or what? The WIKI doesn't work: it either gets ignored, or not updated, or people just don't know about it .. and besides, its very difficult to ascertain what is the 'latest' detail about the OPEN2X world .. also, the OPEN2X mailing lists seem to not be working, or not be usable, or ..

3. GPH seem to be actively sabotaging any attempts by the community to organize itself. As soon as some hacker pitches their tarball into the mix for others to use, either the GPH firmware changes, or there are bits missing from their source release, or there is some korean/anti-korean confusion going on that wreaks havoc on anyone trying to get a clear picture of, exactly, what *does* work and what *doesn't*. Countless times I have heard "oh, after I released my kernel tree, I was contacted by GPH, who don't want people to be doing this sort of thing, so I'm holding it back until there is an 'official' release" ..

Can I please get some sort of response from folks who are interesed in the OPEN2X project, who may have some insight into how to resolve this situation? For me, it seems that by now we for sure should have:

1. a public tree for the kernel, which can be used to reliably reproduce a config similar (if not equal, nay superlative) to the factory-released kernel.

2. a public tree for the basic /bin /sbin /etc toolset that is compatible with the factory firmware release.

3. a way of folding in new libs into a working OPEN2X bootable system image with little fuss.

4. a Compatible OPEN2X sysimage in active use by hackers/testers/users to make their GP2X's really rock.


If the OPEN2X project were producing working bootable alternative firmware images, which are factory (GPH)-compatible, and if there were a fair and open mechanism for contributing to such things, I could put a fair bit of interesting work into the mix to make the GP2X more and more interesting to a wide audience.

Is it time for an OPEN2X shakeup? I think so ..

 

[DijiTao]

Just some guesses:
- GPH still has not released the source code to their modified Mplayer. Not being fully GPL compliant removes the desire of some to support GPH.
- Firmware 2.0 fixed a lot of issues and is ‘good enough’ that nobody is extremely motivated to provide an alternative firmware.
- Open2x is build-able and therefore in so far as a goal of the project being to provide a completely open source alternative firmware, it is successful.
- For awhile DJWillis seemed to be the driving and sole force behind Open2X. Given that few people showed interest months ago he may have become discouraged.
- The desire of some to write programs that run directly on the GP2X hardware made some people feel like improvements to Linux were unnecessary or a waste of time.

I guess the question you have to ask yourself is are you willing to take up the thankless mantle of organizing a new project that will address what you see as the problems with the Open2X project? First it would be good to hear from some of the people involved with Open2X, but I like you have been a bit surprised by the state of things.

 

[MadDog]

- Firmware 2.0 fixed a lot of issues and is ‘good enough’ that nobody is extremely motivated to provide an alternative firmware.

This is prob the main reason. Before 2.0 I was pulling my hair out, I would have tried any 'alternate' FW. But 2.0 is perfect for my needs. Also I think now that the 940 has been shown to be very easy to get working most are having too much time having fun playing with that.

I guess its just one of them things that happens when peaple arn't financially motivated to work towards these ends.

As DijiTao says, over to you.


Something an old boss of mine would say.......
"A job is not worth doing unless you do it your self"

Shame really, but I think its no great loss.

 

[Radek]

Is it just apathy? Is it just poor organization? Is it disinterest, or is there something else going on that makes it practically impossible to coordinate ones efforts? With USB-Host now well and truly fixed, I really want to get some work done on folding in new features to the GP2X sysimage .. such as MIDI(MidiShare), such as Powermate, such as adding USB-Keyboard/USB-Mouse/Powermate support to the SDL, etc.

But lately I'm beginning to think that all the hype about the Open2X project is really just a straw man to make people think there is something going on, when really .. there isn't anything.

To me, and I could be wrong, the purpose of the OPEN2X project is to get all the pieces together required to assemble an open, community-supported, hackable firmware consisting of:

-a factory-compatible Linux kernel
-factory-compatible libs
-the basic system tool image rootfs, containing: /bin /usr/bin /etc.

However, as I see it, the OPEN2X project is an abysmal failure so far, for the following reasons:

Well... GPH's firmaware got good enough. People realized that changing it will not bring that much of improvement. Most users will stick to the stock firmware anyway. Hardware capabilities (blitter, 2nd core, other coprocs) can be used in GPH's Linux too.

 

[Cyclops]

Just some guesses:
- GPH still has not released the source code to their modified Mplayer. Not being fully GPL compliant removes the desire of some to support GPH.

Mplayer is not part of the kernel rant

- Firmware 2.0 fixed a lot of issues and is ‘good enough’ that nobody is extremely motivated to provide an alternative firmware.

If its good enough. Why are people interested in creating an alternatine. Because those two processers are particularly easy to use, and all that memory is easy to access.

- Open2x is build-able and therefore in so far as a goal of the project being to provide a completely open source alternative firmware, it is successful.

It does need an update. Its currently just a deterant from others starting a competing project.

- For awhile DJWillis seemed to be the driving and sole force behind Open2X. Given that few people showed interest months ago he may have become discouraged.

I've always had the impression he was a non-entity or even actively hostile where the kernel was concerned, and some of his comments have been...interesting.

- The desire of some to write programs that run directly on the GP2X hardware made some people feel like improvements to Linux were unnecessary or a waste of time.

This HH thing has been a pain for a long time, If someones interested in it they should do that, people they should work on what they want.

I guess the question you have to ask yourself is are you willing to take up the thankless mantle of organizing a new project that will address what you see as the problems with the Open2X project? First it would be good to hear from some of the people involved with Open2X, but I like you have been a bit surprised by the state of things.

Nicely written

Personally I've thought Linux on the GP2X has been a disgrace, GPH happily ignoring GPL, Craigix disgraceful handelling and namecalling, and then DaveC got let out of the box.

 

[The Spider Mastermind]

Personally I've thought Linux on the GP2X has been a disgrace, GPH happily ignoring GPL, Craigix disgraceful handelling and namecalling, and then DaveC got let out of the box.

Cool guy!

 

[DJWillis]

For what it’s worth I have had some discussion with Torpor on IRC about the issues accessing SVN and I believe he has a work around (admittedly retrying until it works ). Looking at the info on Torpors connection to SourceForge I would have to say it looks like SourceForge does have some interesting routing issues to some hosts. SF.Net is far from the perfect host but it is free and easy to setup and use for the most part.

- For awhile DJWillis seemed to be the driving and sole force behind Open2X. Given that few people showed interest months ago he may have become discouraged.

There is an element of that I am sure, Open2x was never over run with offers of support to be honest and this does effect ones motivation. I never really gauged a lot of the community responses I got and that threw me I guess. Add to that the fact I am GP2X’less at the moment and things outside of GP2X land have been a bit of a rollercoaster to say the least over the last few months and I have not be overly enthused to push the project forward (or even look at the GP2X).
TheOddBot has been keeping the kernel and code base aspects of the project up together but I know he has a lot of commitments at the moment.

Anyway, it would be unfair to say Open2x is overly idle or in the doldrums behind the scenes as some people (TheOddBot, Oopo, ART and Paeryn spring to mind) have put some absolutely sterling work into Open2x’s SVN tree.
There are very well formed build scripts that generate tool-chains on just about anything (bar Windows at the moment ) and Paeryn’s SDL tree lives in SVN (and let’s be honest, Paeryn’s SDL patches are more then a little ‘great’) but I’ll concede its all in a very disjointed state and could use some efforts to bring things together so I guess all I can ask for is any volunteers to help get the project running again (anybody got some decent hosting on offer or some time to help design a site for the project that's a bit more then the SF.Net frontpage and an out of date BLOG?).

Countless times I have heard "oh, after I released my kernel tree, I was contacted by GPH, who don't want people to be doing this sort of thing, so I'm holding it back until there is an 'official' release" ..

Interesting, I know GPH do not like people messing with the I2C code and chose to pull it from source released and DignSys where not happy with people tainting there work when they where still involved but that is the first time I have heard such direct comments attributed to GPH. They have never, to my knowledge, contacted anybody involved with Open2x since my discussions with them about the GPL situation some time ago.

And, just some quick notes on Cyclops comments.

It does need an update. It’s currently just a deterrent from others starting a competing project.

That’s rather a sweeping statement without looking at what is in SVN. As for it being a deterrent to another project? I have not seen or heard of any effort to setup another project and nobody has contacted me about ever helping to chip in.

Open2x was always about being a little more then just a kernel; in fact it really offers more as a repository for tools and libs at the moment then a kernel and sysimage. Plenty of people are using outputs but just not aware of it I guess.

I've always had the impression he was a non-entity or even actively hostile where the kernel was concerned, and some of his comments have been...interesting.

Interesting? Well obviously I have touched a nerve at some point but anyway that’s by the by.
I set out with best intentions around all of this but I guess everything falls to shit at some point .
Right now I have no desire to rise to any comment; frankly my heart is not in it .

 

[theoddbot]

2. Very little active progress reports are made to the community-at-large to keep hackers up to date on whats going on. It seems that there are at least 4 different individuals with their own kernel tree's and set of patches for hacking on the GP2X, and either none of these hackers really want to share their work in a community spirit, or just aren't interested

Not sure who you're refering to here, but all of my work is on sourceforge. Can't say I know of more than one other person doing kernel stuff.

3. GPH seem to be actively sabotaging any attempts by the community to organize itself.

I doubt GPH is that organised or even cares.

Countless times I have heard "oh, after I released my kernel tree, I was contacted by GPH, who don't want people to be doing this sort of thing

Never heard of that happening.

Just some guesses:
- GPH still has not released the source code to their modified Mplayer. Not being fully GPL compliant removes the desire of some to support GPH.

Right.

- Firmware 2.0 fixed a lot of issues and is ‘good enough’ that nobody is extremely motivated to provide an alternative firmware.

More the fact that people aren't likely to use it if the official is good enough. At the moment it just seems like wasted effort.

- For awhile DJWillis seemed to be the driving and sole force behind Open2X. Given that few people showed interest months ago he may have become discouraged.

I'd have to say that I have become discouraged as well.

- The desire of some to write programs that run directly on the GP2X hardware made some people feel like improvements to Linux were unnecessary or a waste of time.

Not really. Anything Open2x developed wouldn't be that much different from the current official situation.

I guess the question you have to ask yourself is are you willing to take up the thankless mantle of organizing a new project that will address what you see as the problems with the Open2X project? First it would be good to hear from some of the people involved with Open2X, but I like you have been a bit surprised by the state of things.

He's more than welcome to send an email to one of the admins if he wants to do some work. I for one would give him developer access.

Mplayer is not part of the kernel rant

The issue is that mplayer is GPL and GPH have not released the source. Nothing to do with the kernel.

Craigix disgraceful handelling and namecalling

Can't say that I've seen evidence of that either.

Now, on to my story. About 2 months ago I quit university and got myself a real job, suddenly finding myself with less than an abundance of free time, especially for kernel hacking. At least in the near future, I can't see myself doing much work on this or any other project, especially combined with the fact that the official firmware is 'good enough' to stop people upgrading to an unsupported firmware. I don't really see where torpor is coming from with all the consiparacy theory stuff, I don't believe that I, at least, have discouraged him or hidden code or whatever.

 

[torpor]

well, at least we are now actually talking about what to do about open2x.

i'm willing - and able - to get involved in making an Open2X firmware release which:

1. Is Fully Compatible with the Factory firmware.
2. Extends the capabilities of the Factory firmware in area's such as driver control/management, USB peripheral device support.
3. Allows people to add/contribute/fix things in a community spirit.

And I can say, after a whole day of try after try after retry, i finall have this on my disk:

drwxr-xr-x  6 src users 4096 2006-05-30 14:21 firmware
drwxr-xr-x  3 src users 4096 2006-05-30 14:22 jtag-gp2x
drwxr-xr-x  3 src users 4096 2006-05-30 14:23 launcher
drwxr-xr-x 27 src users 4096 2006-05-30 12:49 libs
drwxr-xr-x 16 src users 4096 2006-05-30 17:48 linux-gp2x
drwxr-xr-x 16 src users 4096 2006-05-30 15:04 linux-mmsp2
drwxr-xr-x 16 src users 4096 2006-05-31 09:39 linux-open2x
drwxr-xr-x  5 src users 4096 2006-05-30 15:10 samples
drwxr-xr-x  7 src users 4096 2006-05-30 12:04 toolchain
drwxr-xr-x 23 src users 4096 2006-05-30 15:17 u-boot-mmsp2
drwxr-xr-x  4 src users 4096 2006-05-30 15:17 utils
-rw-r--r--  1 src users  789 2006-05-30 14:22 svn_CMDS
src@spir:~/src/dev/gp2x/toolchain/svn$ cat svn_CMDS 
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/toolchain
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/libs
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/linux-open2x
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/firmware
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/jtag-gp2x
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/launcher
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/linux-gp2x
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/linux-mmsp2
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/samples
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/u-boot-mmsp2
svn checkout https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/open2x/trunk/utils/

great! so now i can pitch in .. and am building linux-open2x in the background as I type .. so I will try to add some more to the Open2X effort as things progress. Right now, I want to build a kernel.img/gp2xfile.img which will give me what the FW2.0 release has in it, only with the difference that its booting from SD card and using USB devices for peripherals .. 80gig USB disk for games/movies, Powermate for control, USB Joystick for control, WLAN for Internet, etc. Totally feasible, now that I've finally got the subversion mess under control .. and if anyone has some suggestions for a place to move these tree's away from SourceForge, I'd be very happy to hear it, since SF.net is pretty much a total dog for me here in Europe ..

 

[reSpawn]

I had a project here http://opensvn.csie.org/

 

[FluffyPanda]

Maybe you could have a word with RiX0R?

He hosts GP2Xforge which doesn't seem to be getting much use but might make a nice home for open2x

 

[DijiTao]

I’m glad to see DJWillis & theoddbot around, and I appreciate what you’ve done for the community. Even thou I’m using the official 2.0 firmware I still appreciate what you’ve done, and I’m sure a lot of other people do too.

I think the most demoralizing thing about all this is the GPL issue. (If you’ve followed my rants you knew I would say that…) I want GPH to have a symbiotic relationship with the open source community and projects like open2x, but until they come into full GPL compliance anything they do is a bit more parasitic then symbiotic. Its great GPH as come this far, but after all these months still not having 100% GPL compliant firmware (not just kernel, but the whole thing) is disgraceful. I won’t delve on it any further thou as it’s just counter productive at this point to beat that dead horse.

If you want more people to use an Open2x firmware I really think you should set some goals for the project, and then make an easy to install release once these goals are meet. Overall personally I would like to see the Open2X project provide a “Complete open source replacement operating system + application suite for the GP2X”. That is to say not just a kernel, but applications such as a menu and picture viewer, so that by using the Open2X OS a user will not be running any proprietary software on there GP2X. I’m sure we could come up with a long list of all the application that would need to be part of the new OS, and a brainstorm on that would be great. Then we just decide what are the highest priorities items to get a fully working OS out the door, and that gets release as Open2X OS 1.0. Just making a new better menu a central part of the new OS would make it quite popular.

Maybe it’s just me, but that’s the direction I’d like to see things go. Regardless, posting updates to a blog as to what’s going on with Open2x, and making some releases from time to time would really help adoption of the alternative. It’s not just that the official firmware 2.0 is ‘good enough’; it’s also that the install process was pretty easy and didn’t scare the crap out of users.

 

[paeryn]

The only place to get the source tree for SDL is via the svn now, and I only updated it a few days ago. USB mouse support is already in, the joystick code crashes when it tries to access anything other than the internal joystick and I'll fix it as soon as I can (I don't have an ext->usb cable so I can't test it myself).
I have a lot of issues going on around me that sometimes leave me little time to get stuck into coding, but I do try to fix bugs / add extra abilities when I can.

 

[reSpawn]

Maybe starting to work on newest kernel to make it work on GP2x would be another goal.

 

[torpor]

Maybe starting to work on newest kernel to make it work on GP2x would be another goal.

for sure i ought to report on progress, having flamed on and being rather in debt on the subject. i have linux-open2x/ (from the SVN, finally), built over and over a few times today .. still trying to settle on the proper .config for things, but generally, with the linux buildkit, its a smooth endeavour .. apart from moaning and groaning, it seems things can actually be built, and track - relatively well - with the 'official builds' as well, in terms of compatability.

there has been some question as to 'why open2x if the firmware is so good anyway?', and i am of the opinion that the purpose of maintaining an open2x front is to act as a gateway among the broader linux sphere which allows growth ahead of the curve in terms of what the manufacturer of the physical hardware must support; as more and more linux code is availalbe on other linux major platforms which can also be run on the GP2X, the hardware itself becomes more viable. a good way to measure that is through creative 'remix' of the platform, and for sure the GP2X kernel+sysbin has some good licks for mixin' ..

 

[timbobsteve]

I like the idea of turning the Open2X firmware into more than just the kernel. I think that replacing certain things and turning it into a miniature OS would be rather beneficial. At least with that sort of expansion more people can get involved and get the project going (seeing as how some people can't code for he kernel but can write menu applications). I also saw that there is a release of gp2X11 ... thats pretty neat, maybe a little overkill for the GP2X but cool none the less.

One thing that really annoys me, and I know it has nothing to do with the FW or open2X, is the lack of ability to custom EQ in the audio player. I want to EQ my music myself and the presets aren't cutting it. I wish I knew more about sound programming, then maybe I could work on porting a different player to 2X.

Anyways... I think Open2X should expand into not only a FW + base system, but perhaps a replacement for most of the apps that come with the GPH FW. Just a thought...

 

[BradN]

Well, with x11 ported, perhaps someone could get xmms running...