The Philosophy Thread

[mali]

(Sorry to derail some of your questions mali)

Don't say that, you don't derail, this topic is for every philosophical question, and you are actually completely on topic


In my approach of explaining time an being, the structure of the brain is irrelevant, as is any information gathered from outside the mind. Interconnecting inside and outside observations helps verifying/falsifying ideas sometimes, though.

I observe people around me dying and they are removed from the world. They don't interact with me any more. My problem is something else. I know that I am, because I doubt that I am, so I am the one who doubts and therefore must exist. This basic evidence is not questionable. The next step is time. Time exists as I've pointed out and gp32rich also explained well.

So there are two evidences of reality that _definitely_ exist, because these evidences can be obtained without outside information. Descartes gave the example of a stick you dive into water. You see the stick bend, but that's an illusion. So outside information is gathered through senses and might be false, or the interpretation of those senses inside your mind can be false.

It might even be possible that we are unaware that we are already having influence over other dimensions, which might return mystery to the process of thought and might make things such as consciousness without support in the currently observable dimensions possible - without a physical body or brain. The problem is, we can't verify this, and I don't think it makes sense to discuss the presence or absence of this until we have some means to verify any of this experimentally.

This is the point. The only tool to gain evidence is deduction, thus I try to find out what those two evidences of being and time mean and if it is possible to deduce more evidence.

In order to gain more evidence, the two known evidences must be analysed. This analysis still has to leave out outside information. Outside information regarding time means for example, concluding that there will be something like 1. January 2011. I've learned by observation, that time passes by and so do days and years. So let's forget days and years and just think about what qualities time has in our thinking.

I've pointed out these qualities. The past exists, present isn't tangible, future is theory.

So the world known to my primitive example mind that exists without outside information is that something has happened I'm currently thinking about. I'm thinking about something I thought.

Everytime I try to approach the border of my mind trying to explain what this means for thinking itself I fail.

The "feeling" I have while thinking about it is, that once I am I can't be not. Thus I am is an evidence in itself and can't end itself.

Now give me a deductive chain of evidences that works

 

[mali]

Is this as good as it gets? What if the overall level of good in people around the world increased a small amount, maybe 5%. Most people would say that'd be a good thing. Now, increase it to 100% good, no more bad people. Would that still be a good thing? I'm not sure! I want to say yes but I have a feeling that everything in nature is a tremendous balancing act and to tweak it like that might have unforseen consequences.

I have the feeling that our coordinate system just gets shifted when improving "goodness". There will always be the same amount of good and bad but with a different intensity, so to say. Our definitions of "good" and "evil" are part of our social structure allowing or prohibiting certain things. A very nice example is the story "Lord of the flies". The coordinate system is downshifted in that case. Viewing that island with the kids from our point of view, there is more evil, but if you try to see it solely from the point of view of the kids, it's not. Ok, it doesn't really work, because some of the kids still use the outside coordinate system.

What I want to say is, that the natural balance will always be given, even if we increase "goodness" as long as the system is stable. Life itself is flexible enough to cover any coordinate system, no matter how good or evil it looks from our current point of view.
In other words, the story of the Nazis can repeat itself anytime if our social coordinate system gets a severe downshift.

edit:
Examples of localized downshifts are warzones. Soldiers do things they wouldn't normally do in the coordinate system they were born in and suffer from post-war traumata when they are back.

 

[mali]

@dflemstr
I'm really hitting a wall here and it will take a while to get my head around what theoretical additional dimensions mean for thinking(good thing, it'll give me something to think about lol).

The question is, if thinking is _part_ of a certain dimension or if it _is_ a dimension by itself.

How many dimensions does it take to develop consciousness?

If it can be extrapolated that the next higher dimension is able to cross the lower dimensions, wouldn't this cause a collapse of the whole system?

 

[sam fisher]

and since the world is completely deterministic

Since when has this been stated to be the case? Quantum mechanics has at its very heart non-determinism.

 

[dflemstr]

and since the world is completely deterministic

Since when has this been stated to be the case? Quantum mechanics has at its very heart non-determinism.

OK, I have to be empirical now:
Everything we know up until quantum mechanics has been "proven" to be completely deterministic.
However, we once thought that many things we know today to be deterministic weren't deterministic, e.g. we once thought that iron would transform randomly into lodestones, but we now know that this happens via the influence of various magnetic fields, or, we thought that illnesses befell upon random people who had sinned when in reality they are caused by bacteria, viri, an unfortunate set of genes, etc.

So, you could assume that Quantum Mechanics also is deterministic, but that we don't know enough about it yet to be able to make predictions. Or, alternatively, QM might be undeterministic, but have a deterministic chaos pattern to it that makes it predictable anyways (like Schrödinger's Cat: you don't know whether the cat is alive, but you know for sure that there isn't a timber truck made out of marshmallows in the box, which reduces the chaos and increases entropy by a little).

 

[sam fisher]

I don't think you can make an analogy out of the belief that people who became ill were sinners. Well, not a good analogy anyway as that unenlightened belief is not really comparable to quantum mechanics.

 

[zaoin]

http://www.anthonypeake.com/

Interesting book about deja vu, Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, etc... and The Eternal Return.

In others words, all of us probably will wait for Pandora AGAIN.
All your DAEMON know it.

Edit: Well, perhaps openpandora team will know then about all these delays.

 

[mali]

I took a quick glance at the déja vu explanation and have to disagree.

The human brain and especially the self reflection of thinking processes is actually a very nice topic on its own for this thread

The decisions you think you make have already been made before you think them. That's just a sideeffect of how the brain works. The self is just the last part of the process chain inside the brain that is informed about the decision. Thus it can happen that the self thinks it already experienced a certain situation. There is a certain delay in everything we think. The brain even has to synchronize senses and thus add delays on top.

Edit:
I did some further reading and I'm prepared to say that most, if not all, what that guy writes is nonsense.

 

[zaoin]

I took a quick glance at the déja vu explanation and have to disagree.

The human mind and especially the self reflection of thinking processes is actually a very nice additional topic for this thread

The decisions you think you make have already been made before you think them. That's just a sideeffect of how the brain works. The self is just the last part of the process chain inside the brain that is informed about the decision. Thus it can happen that the self thinks it already experienced a certain situation.

Edit:
I did some further reading and I'm prepared to say that most, if not all, what that guy writes is nonsense.

I don't know. And if I knew it I couldn't write something here because my english is crap.
But I asure you I think that I can get laid with all these explanations. Women love this kind of things. :lol:

 

[b._.o._.b]

You can have really mathematical and rhetorical discussions about about life, good and evil. Nothing wrong with that, people that are into that usually like maths and linguistics.
I like to see the world and my life without dealing with quarks, strings and multiple dimensions.

People are capable of killing, raping and doing other "bad things" because this is how these randomly created star elements have survived. Suffering, pain, empathy, guilt are methods to survive. There is no good and evil, there is an inbuilt system to survive and we have developed into species with something we call conscious for that purpose.

I have no recollection of my existence before my life and am pretty sure after my death my atoms, molecules, electrons, strings or any form of energy, will not be aware it was ever a b_o_b on the GP2X board. The state they are in now is just a temporary wonderful accident. So for me the only thing that counts is the present and creating as much pleasant present moments for myself in the future. Might not be the best way to survive as species though... well... as you might tell from my philosophy I don't really care

 

[urjaman]

"The meaning of life is to give life meaning."

That's all i have to add, and even that is not by me :/. I'm not good at this kind of stuff (I really dont know why i wanted to add that here.....)

 

[Mr.Confuzed]

Now, mathematically speaking (and mathematics has been quite good at modelling the world so far), it is impossible for a dimension to *end*, and we don't observe any dimensions in the rest of the universe that *have* ended, so it is rather improbable that life our experience of the universe will end, ever.

How's this for a contradiction: If, as you say, life is a dimension and dimensions cannot end. Then how do you explain the start of life?

Also, I think mali was saying this: Dimensions are always independent of each other, are they not? So how do things change along the life dimension?

So, you could assume that Quantum Mechanics also is deterministic, but that we don't know enough about it yet to be able to make predictions.

I agree with this. But hey, I think the universe could be expressed as a single function. If the function was approximated well enough, it could be used to see what is likely to happen in the future and what is likely to have happened in the past. To me, this explains conciousness as an invocation of the universe function.

 

[senquack]

edit:
Examples of localized downshifts are warzones. Soldiers do things they wouldn't normally do in the coordinate system they were born in and suffer from post-war traumata when they are back.

Nice point

 

[mali]

"The meaning of life is to give life meaning."

That's all i have to add, and even that is not by me :/. I'm not good at this kind of stuff (I really dont know why i wanted to add that here.....)

100% agreement
The good thing is, that there is no universal interpretation of "meaning" so it works for everyone

I like to see the world and my life without dealing with quarks, strings and multiple dimensions.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. Find evidence with basic tools. Tools that are given to everyone who has consciousness. I hate learning mathematical formulas and that stuff, cause I like to _understand_ instead of recombining not falsifyable information like the mathematical aproach does. Comparing/combining thought theories with science theories helps sometimes, though. Philosophy is for everyone and a great way to keep the mind busy

I have no recollection of my existence before my life and am pretty sure after my death my atoms, molecules, electrons, strings or any form of energy, will not be aware it was ever a b_o_b on the GP2X board. The state they are in now is just a temporary wonderful accident. So for me the only thing that counts is the present and creating as much pleasant present moments for myself in the future. Might not be the best way to survive as species though... well... as you might tell from my philosophy I don't really care

The remaining question is, if your mind is completely bound to your flesh or if it isn't. That's what I'm trying to find out.

How's this for a contradiction: If, as you say, life is a dimension and dimensions cannot end. Then how do you explain the start of life?

Also, I think mali was saying this: Dimensions are always independent of each other, are they not? So how do things change along the life dimension?

The Problem is, that you can't compare starting point and endpoint. You can't even remember or narrow down the starting point of your life. You were there suddenly, so maybe all existence started at that time, it's difficult to say or to imagine.
Apparently the higher dimensions allow movement in all directions of the lower dimensions. The third dimension crosses the first and the second. Time affects all three lower dimensions.


The 10 dimensional reality is a really nice sidetopic, imo.
I think the first step would be to describe the points of contacts of the known dimensions. If these points have certain generalisable qualities, it could help to imagine the next higher dimension.

So, my first provocative assumption: The mind is somehow able to control the 4th dimension(time) by collecting memories in chronological order allowing to go back in time(in the mind, not physically) and thus is the point of contact between 4th and 5th dimension. If the dimension above is able to move in all directions in the lower dimensions, this might be true.

edit: Full 5th dimension means being able to go back _and_ forth in time then.

Thoughts?

edit:
A weirdo-romantic brainstorm: Life evolves interdimensionally. The stadium of developing consciousness is the endpoint of our reality and the next stage is already present in the 5th dimension. Maybe life is just the crossing point of all dimensions.

 

[polyroy]

So, my first provocative assumption: The mind is somehow able to control the 4th dimension(time) by collecting memories in chronological order allowing to go back in time(in the mind, not physically) and thus is the point of contact between 4th and 5th dimension. If the dimension above is able to move in all directions in the lower dimensions, this might be true.

edit: Full 5th dimension means being able to go back _and_ forth in time then.

Thoughts?

edit:
A weirdo-romantic brainstorm: Life evolves interdimensionally. The stadium of developing consciousness is the endpoint of our reality and the next stage is already present in the 5th dimension. Maybe life is just the crossing point of all dimensions.

I think you should consider this: the theory that states those extra dimensions exist (which we cannot even observe) is based on some model. In order to refrain from this becoming pure speculation (and probably not being taken seriously for abusing the term "dimension" to fit your every thought), you should ask yourself some other questions. What is the origin of that model? Why does that model seem to fit reality (why do physicists tend to agree?) And also; what does this model imply for those extra dimensions, perhaps they hint at their purpose and the way they influence current reality. There are currently multiple theories that make attempts to explain the dimensions in multiple ways, some of them even disagreeing on the number of dimensions. Physics and mathematics at this level is closely tied to philosophy, you need some understanding of what you are considering.

If you ignore such questions, then saying a 5th dimension to be 'responsible' for the afterlife is identical to attempting to explain it in terms of God or some unknown "factor X". Your theory doesn't hold any ground unless you link it to other accepted trains of thought (and possibly experimentally verified facts).

With regard to your explanation of being able to think back and see our past: this is not the true past. Our minds fool us, and we often mistake (or make up) memories of the past, so it can't really be that memories collect on a "dimension" that is universally shared between people, everyone has their own version. Unless you want to take Parallel Universes into account (please don't )

(P.s. dflemstr: chaos == entropy)

 

[mali]

I think you should consider this: the theory that states those extra dimensions exist (which we cannot even observe) is based on some model. In order to refrain from this becoming pure speculation (and probably not being taken seriously for abusing the term "dimension" to fit your every thought), you should ask yourself some other questions. What is the origin of that model? Why does that model seem to fit reality (why do physicists tend to agree?) And also; what does this model imply for those extra dimensions, perhaps they hint at their purpose and the way they influence current reality. There are currently multiple theories that make attempts to explain the dimensions in multiple ways, some of them even disagreeing on the number of dimensions. Physics and mathematics at this level is closely tied to philosophy, you need some understanding of what you are considering.

Actually you have to spoon-feed me with that stuff, because I'm not going to explore those theories. What I want to do is keep it on a truely philosophical level and link scientific theories just for fun to see if some new angle to view the situation might reveal something unconsidered. I'm no math or physics guy at all. I started EE study but got so bored that I quit. Creativity is my talent

If you ignore such questions, then saying a 5th dimension to be 'responsible' for the afterlife is identical to attempting to explain it in terms of God or some unknown "factor X". Your theory doesn't hold any ground unless you link it to other accepted trains of thought (and possibly experimentally verified facts).

Actually I don't intend to say such things :lol:

With regard to your explanation of being able to think back and see our past: this is not the true past. Our minds fool us, and we often mistake (or make up) memories of the past, so it can't really be that memories collect on a "dimension" that is universally shared between people, everyone has their own version. Unless you want to take Parallel Universes into account (please don't )

This is actually very helpful. The question is: Must time be the same for everyone? My philosophical evidences so far are that I exist and that time exists. Everything else is just straying elsewhere to find hints for further thoughts that hopefully improve this basic philosophy. I try to follow the creative approach without losing myself in formulas.

Edit:
If you have links to summaries of those theories, that get to the point quickly, please share them

edit:
Removed some stuff. I'd rather go back to analysing mind and reception of time to not distract too much from the original thoughts. The multidimensional theories are too distracting. I might read a book about it if I'm bored enough.

 

[b._.o._.b]

The remaining question is, if your mind is completely bound to your flesh or if it isn't. That's what I'm trying to find out.

Ha, that is an easy one

Suppose you have brain surgery and someone randomly cuts incisions in your brain. After surgery it is very likely your mind has been altered, you might even behave completely different. There are examples of people becoming much more extrovert or introvert after a brain surgery. You might have difficulties in talking, counting or thinking logically. That means changing the flesh, changes your mind.
This for me pretty much proves that there is no such thing as a spirit. Flesh is you, flesh gone, you gone.

That is why I don't understand religion. When a baby dies.. will that be the mind/spirit he (assuming it is a boy) will have for ever? When the same baby dies an old man with Alzheimer, can't talk anymore and lives like a vegetable. Will that be the mind that goes to heaven or hell? If that is true I can understand why religious people are so eager to blow themselves up when they are not older than 20 or 30.

Of course they will have another great answer that is written in a book somewhere though..

 

[mali]

Ha, that is an easy one

Suppose you have brain surgery and someone randomly cuts incisions in your brain. After surgery it is very likely your mind has been altered, you might even behave completely different. There are examples of people becoming much more extrovert or introvert after a brain surgery. You might have difficulties in talking, counting or thinking logically. That means changing the flesh, changes your mind.
This for me pretty much proves that there is no such thing as a spirit. Flesh is you, flesh gone, you gone.

Yes, that's a very good point Strokes can be mind-altering, too.

 

[b._.o._.b]

Yes, that's a very good point Strokes can be mind-altering, too.

Thanks, I have difficulties explaining this kind of ideas. English is not my native language and this is not the most easy matter to discuss

Got a nice one for you: is there something like "free will"?

 

[mali]

Thanks, I have difficulties explaining this kind of ideas. English is not my native language and this is not the most easy matter to discuss

Got a nice one for you: is there something like "free will"?

No, there isn't

Nice topic, let's put this in between

edit: You can start explaining why there is no free will if you want to, I'll chime in later.

edit:
(Back from the shower)
Btw, what's your first language? Mine is German.

The last statement I have in mind is that roughly 70% of human behaviour is inherited and 30% is learned.
The brain is mainly prebuilt. The most interesting and also slightly scary discovery is, that even our decisions are made before your "self" becomes aware of those decisions. The work is done by the brain and from time to time someone from the brain guys slides a note through the bars of your cell and informs you what happens outside, exaggeratedly speaking :lol:

I had some interesting experiences fitting in that scheme. When I was around 15 years old, I was able to solve mental math without actually calculating in a classical way. The result was suddenly there. I lost this ability, though. Maybe those large amounts of alcohol that followed at that age were at least part of the reason.

An interesting experience is also thinking something while doing something else. I've trained that ability by starting to think about the next step I want to do while still doing the previous step. When you do this long enough, you come in a weird state of mind, extremely concentrated. It's possible to raise the possible difficulty level of actions and parallel thoughts, that way. If I have a good day, I completely lose parts of what I do while thinking about complex stuff. It's nice to fill a workday with thinking something else while doing a different thing

I started a blog a while ago, where I wanted to describe these experiences. I never made an entry and stopped training that stuff though, because I really had the feeling I could go insane that way. It was like being a person living in someone else.