The Interlace/scanlines Issue.


Eolair

I am become death, the destroyer of worlds
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I made a post earlier about scanlines showing in high contrast areas of the screen but ONLY when you move your unit:
interlaced3as.jpg


Apparently, this isn't the whole story though. Interlace graphics also seem to appear on objects moving at high speed. The DrMDx menu and the game Rockdodger are good examples of how this looks. The images to the right show the original screens and to left how they are distorted on the GP2X's LCD:
interlaced3ox.jpg

On the DrMDx menu the "X"'s that are moving across the screen have scanlines. In Rockdodger the rock sprites are also clearly "interlaced" when they move across the screen.

The important question is why. I can think of several answers:
1. It's a normal limitation of the hardware. No fix is possible.
If this is the case I wonder if the GP32 has the same limitation? If not, why put inferior hardware on its successor? Wouldn't make much sense.
2. It's a hardware fault. Non fixable through software
If this is the case then does it affect all units or only a few? Can the affected units be fixed in hardware somehow?
3. It's a software error. Fixable
If this is the answer then there's no real problem. The question is only what the error is, how to fix it and when it will be done.
(Note: On my unit the LCD tweaker doesn't appear to help at all with this problem).

I'm sorry if this issue has been covered already but I couldn't find any concrete information. Some people say they have the problem, some say they don't. Some say it's been fixed in the latest firmware. Some say it was fixed but is now back in the latest firmware. Others say they've never had it at all. Very confusing, to say the least and I'm surprised it isn't doesn't raise more comment.

Edit: I'm also wondering whether both issues (interlace when moving the screen and interlace on sprites moving at high speed) are in fact the same problem. From the viewer's standpoint, moving the screen itself and moving objects on the screen is the same thing.
 
Great finally someone who sums it up. The gp2x is a fantastic machine (got it yesterday) but the scanline problem really is a problem. I have exactly the same problem you discribe...

Using the lcd/cpu tweaker does not solve the problem. My LCD does not flicker but the scanlines remain whatever settings I use.

When you hold the unit still and do not blink your eyes too much your brain seems to compensate the effect.
When you watch a movie and you look up... You notice it really puts strain on your eyes...

Also the effect discribed on moving objects is really just unacceptable even if this machine is as great as it is. Picture quality is a very impartant factor.

In the forum I never really got an answer if this is a problem that will be solved in software (I start to worry because the cpu/lcd-tweak-program does not do the job for the scanlines)

I mailed evildragon about this problem and am waiting for an (hopefully) optimistic answer.

Palm devices, psp´s, Ds, pocket pc... also have this effect I know but it is barely or not at all noticeable... So PLEASE GPH do your best...
 
Mr. Anderson posted on Dec 31 2005 at 01:29 PM said:
the lcd tweaker helps for me, however it won't erase all of the scanlines, I guess that the tweaker needs a bit more tuning...
Correct me if I'm wrong but the LCD tweaker is meant to fix the flickering issue. This isn't the same thing as the scanline problem. We need to keep these problems seperate. I don't think they are even related.

Also, I've never even had the flickering issue on my unit. I can make it flicker slightly by changing the values in the LCD tweaker though.

TomVS posted on Dec 31 2005 at 01:33 PM said:
Great finally someone who sums it up. The gp2x is a fantastic machine (got it yesterday) but the scanline problem really is a problem. I have exactly the same problem you discribe...
I'm glad someone else is as concerned as myself about this issue. I think it's the most serious problem on the GP2X right now. IMO, the image quality should be a major concern to everyone.

I wish GPH would be more forthcoming on this issue. Or maybe they are, but it's just not reaching out their international customers.
 
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That´s reassuring... Flickering is not a problem for me too... Just the scanlines...
Anyone ideas about solving that ?
 
Eolair posted on Dec 31 2005 at 02:21 PM said:
I'm sorry if this issue has been covered already but I couldn't find any concrete information. Some people say they have the problem, some say they don't. Some say it's been fixed in the latest firmware. Some say it was fixed but is now back in the latest firmware. Others say they've never had it at all. Very confusing, to say the least and I'm surprised it isn't doesn't raise more comment.

Because most of people aren't so finicky about this?
No everyone has the same perception and this is good enough explanation why some "see" this and some not.

But indeed - there are visible scanlines....

My theory is the lcd screen is being refreshed using interlacing.
Then the moving objects are showing this artifact more because their animation is splitted to two halfframes. There is probably a 2x2 dither used all the time so it might amplify this effect somewhat. Then we have a time modulation of pixels in every lcd screen (for more effective colours) and this could be in a part gulity too.

Is this fixable? I don't know but probably it is. Knowing how bad are original GPH lcd's timings are (they can be improved significantly using lcdtweaker) I would risk to say all this scanlines/interlacing business is due to (another!) not so fortunate firmware settings.
 
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I have the same problem. To be honest, I was a bit disappointed when I received my unit and saw the scanlines. I have noticed the LCD tweaker does help out somewhat, but the settings don't stick after you turn it off.
 
After upgrading to 1.1.0 I get no flickering at all.

Scanlines can be removed almost completely using the 1.0.1 LCD Tweaker, after fine tuning it, they get almost unnoticeable unless you move the unit. I also remember seeing some scanlines in my BLU when the light was turned off.

And whenever you doubt about the quality of the LCD in your gp2x REMEMBER THAT the bootstrap screen is displayed with >zero scanlines<. It's all caused by the faulty linux driver provided by gph. So no hardware fault.
 
Segata Sanshiro posted on Dec 31 2005 at 02:31 PM said:
After upgrading to 1.1.0 I get no flickering at all.

Scanlines can be removed almost completely using the 1.0.1 LCD Tweaker, after fine tuning it, they get almost unnoticeable unless you move the unit. I also remember seeing some scanlines in my BLU when the light was turned off.
I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not talking about flickering. I'm not talking about permanent appearing scanlines. These issues are non existent on the second batch or can be fixed by using the LCD tweaker.

As I have said, the problem is the scanlines which appear when you move the unit or when there's fast moving objects on the screen. The LCD tweaker doesn't appear to help against this problem in any way.

Segata Sanshiro posted on Dec 31 2005 at 02:31 PM said:
And whenever you doubt about the quality of the LCD in your gp2x REMEMBER THAT the bootstrap screen is displayed with >zero scanlines<. It's all caused by the faulty linux driver provided by gph. So no hardware fault.
Are you referring to the green startup screen? It's obvious why you won't see the above mentioned problem there. It's mostly one color and there's no high contrast areas (No moving objects either). Look at the black intro screen instead with the diagonal lines. Move the unit slightly and intersecting scanlines will appear on the whole screen. This is the problem I'm talking about.

Or load DrMDx and compare the "X" ot the top of the menu with the moving X's in the background. You should notice scanlines on the moving ones. This is the problem I'm referring to.
 
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The scanlines really annoy me, its especially noticable when playing flashback and making your character run and you get to halves of a character. I think maybe they've just used some default display driver without actually modifying it for an lcd.
 
I was just adding information to the thread, not replying to your initial post, but now I will.

Eolair said:
I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not talking about flickering. I'm not talking about permanent appearing scanlines. These issues are non existent on the second batch or can be fixed by using the LCD tweaker.

I'm not talking about permanent scanlines either. I'm talking about the scanlines that become clearly visible when you move the unit. This is my GP2X: made the 18th of November (800th unit of the batch made after the first gbax lot), updated from 1.0.0 to 1.1.0, tweaked with the 1.0.1 LCD tweaker to 200Mhz, 940 turned off and 87F0 as LCD timing (which obviously only has effect after the OS is fully loaded and the program has been run). Now:

Eolair said:
Are you referring to the green startup screen? It's obvious why you won't see the above mentioned problem there. It's mostly one color and there's no high contrast areas (No moving objects either). Look at the black intro screen instead with the diagonal lines. Move the unit slightly and intersecting scanlines will appear on the whole screen. This is the problem I'm talking about.

The boot screen i was talking about is in fact the gray one with diagonal lines and the Gp2X logo. I'm sure about one thing, and is that I can't see a single scanline during the entire time that screen is displayed, no matter how fast i move (or shake) the unit. And I've been noticing this since i got my console. According to Robster's tests, the OS (and thus, its LCD driver) hasn't been loaded yet. Four seconds after that, the kernel has already been loaded, and the rest of Linux is copied into the RAM, during the green screen. That screen IS full of scanlines that you can see when you move the unit.

Summarizing: no scanlines during the grey screen, lots of them during the green one. I've we don't agree in this, we're probably talking about different machines.

Edit: I forgot to mention -there are contrast problems in the gray screen. The white "GP2" letters make some horizontal regions of the screen a bit clearer, like when you're watching the credits of a film on TV.

Eolair said:
Or load DrMDx and compare the "X" ot the top of the menu with the moving X's in the background. You should notice scanlines on the moving ones. This is the problem I'm referring to.

That's right, the fast moving X's get a lot of scanlines while the one in the top looks perfect. It also happens during gameplay.
 
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My scanlines are fixed (generally) by UPLL.
I have to admit, though, they are terribly annoying. The seem to have got worse since the last firmware (although I did watch AMV Hell 3 yesterday and didn't notice the scanlines).
 
I haven't noticed this issue at all, maybe my eyes just aren't as sensitive.
 
Segata Sanshiro posted on Dec 31 2005 at 04:02 PM said:
I was just adding information to the thread, not replying to your initial post, but now I will.
I'm sorry if you took offense, I didn't mean to come off as aggressive or anything. But in your first post you seemed to say that the LCD Tweaker only fixed the permanent scanlines:

Segata Sanshiro posted on Dec 31 2005 at 02:31 PM said:
Scanlines can be removed almost completely using the 1.0.1 LCD Tweaker, after fine tuning it, they get almost unnoticeable unless you move the unit.
Which was why I thought it wasn't a very relevant comment. Or are you saying that the LCD Tweaker also can fix the scanlines that appear when you move your unit? I'm probably misunderstanding something?

Anyway, this is roughly what I see when I move the unit when it's showing the "bootstrap screen":
bootstrap5dv.jpg

(left image when holding still, right side when moving the unit)

To me the scanlines are very apparent. If you can't replicate this on your unit, we clearly have difference in hardware. Mine is second batch unit, 2005-12-09, updated from 1.0.1 to 1.1.0.

Note: I can also see scanlines on the green loading screen if I move the unit and really concentrate but they are much less apparent. The image is too bright and there's not enough contrast.
 
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craigix posted on Dec 31 2005 at 04:33 PM said:
Once raw hardware is up and running and people can move over to it we should have an answer on the scanlines.
Thanks Craigix. I was hoping someone with a more official position would answer. Very reassuring to know that the problem will be looked over :)

cbox posted on Dec 31 2005 at 04:44 PM said:
I haven't noticed this issue at all, maybe my eyes just aren't as sensitive.
I'm happy for you :lol:

Anyway, if you want to be absolutely sure you just haven't noticed them before now. Download this game and play it: Rockdodger The scanlines are very apparent in this game. Look at the rocks and you will most definately see them if you unit has this problem:

rockdodger0va.jpg

Left side shows image with no scanlines, right side shows how it appears on the LCD.


Maybe you're better off not noticing it though ;)
 
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It is definately a software issure. Before I upgraded to 1.0.1 (out of necessity, because 1.0.0 would not write to my SD card) I had NO SCANLINES. That's right, no scanlines, no diagonal ghost lines, no filickering, no LCD problems at all, and that was with 1.0.0 and the LCD patch. I've got no idea why they changed it in the next version, as it was working fine....

EDIT: Typo...
 
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