Tablet Functionality

[Svartalf]

That's part of the effect of patents. HWR research has been in the works for some time in the form of analog computing rather then digital. A lot of came over to digital, but is held back by patents. Those algorithms while extremely effective, require a license even if you develop them yourself. There are other ways to do it, but none are as effecient as some of the 80's research that was put into the Newton. The main ways are through neural networks; while more accurate, they have a higher processing requirement.

The upshot is that many of those patents are now expiring or have already done so. 17 years. It's the law.

Having said this, only some of that stuff is now becoming available. So, I suspect that we'll see it in a while
as far as the handwriting stuff goes. The full-on tablet stuff, unfortunately, won't be showing with something
like the Pandora unless the rights holders allow us the rights to it for gratis or on the cheap in our case.

Something that is unlikely to happen anytime soon, unfortunately.

So in any case, suppose we find part that would allows this to work (without compinsating size, ect.), how hard would it be to get it to stay sturdy and keep it from swivelling aroung like a cheap mad catz product (lol), any time ive seen a good swivelling product, its been "factory" made. Could it be done by hand with great results. I've been looking around, but still haven't found anything to say yes to that question. If anyone has ideas or products, please give links. Thank you

Unfortunately, there's patents, etc. involved with the swivel case designs. You're not going to get this
without someone ponying up a bit more cash than the ~$350US that we're looking at for the Pandora.
It's just not going to happen right now and for some time to come.

 

[Chip]

So in any case, suppose we find part that would allows this to work (without compinsating size, ect.), how hard would it be to get it to stay sturdy and keep it from swivelling aroung like a cheap mad catz product (lol), any time ive seen a good swivelling product, its been "factory" made. Could it be done by hand with great results. I've been looking around, but still haven't found anything to say yes to that question. If anyone has ideas or products, please give links. Thank you

There is no off-the-shelf part that is going to make this happen. It would be hard to make any kind of functional swivel hinge. It would be very, very hard to make one that looked or performed like something "factory" made. Like I said 10 posts ago, any solution would have to be custom fabricated. That means taking very precise measurements, designing a mult-directional hinge in AutoCAD (or something similar), using a CNC machine to create the parts, assemble them securely, find a way to attach the hinge to both the base and the lid sections, modify the case to accommodate all the changes, and figure out a solution to the display cable problem.

Nothing about the process is easy. It would take a BenHeck (or somebody of his caliber) to make a functional tablet mode Pandora. Unless you have access to a precision machine shop, you should just get used to the clamshell design.

 

[Spadoof]

The truth is I can possibly have these tools ( I'm might work in a titanium plant this summer). If I could scope out a design and like you said make precise measurements and convince the manager that a profit could be made, it is possible (I will honestly look into it). But two other problems arrise, 1) I can't just make one with the method stated above (which would be ok if people are willing to purchase them) but would selling them as seperate parts violate the copyright of products that use similar designs?

-SPadoof :gp2x

You soon will be mine andora1:

 

[Tom`]

would selling them as seperate parts violate the copyright of products that use similar designs?

*bangs head against wall*

Copyrights are NOT patents, people. They are completely different.

Read this, people.

It may be nitpicking but I think it's important, I've seen this problem continuously. People need to become informed about this stuff.

 

[Svartalf]

The truth is I can possibly have these tools ( I'm might work in a titanium plant this summer). If I could scope out a design and like you said make precise measurements and convince the manager that a profit could be made, it is possible (I will honestly look into it). But two other problems arrise, 1) I can't just make one with the method stated above (which would be ok if people are willing to purchase them) but would selling them as seperate parts violate the copyright of products that use similar designs?

That would be infringing on the Patents that we keep mentioning exist- and in making any of them for anyone other than yourself, even if for free, would be infringing on them in a manner that they could sue the pants off of you if they so chose.

 

[Xanas]

Would you be infringing if it's the user applying the modified hinge? Kind of the way that nvidia manages to circumvent the GPL intentions of preventing them from using binary blob drivers by having the user actually be the one who does it?

Without actually being part of a device would such an attachment count as a violation of the patent?

 

[Megamixman]

Would you be infringing if it's the user applying the modified hinge? Kind of the way that nvidia manages to circumvent the GPL intentions of preventing them from using binary blob drivers by having the user actually be the one who does it?

Without actually being part of a device would such an attachment count as a violation of the patent?

NVIDIA isn't violating the GPL. They have their or binary Blob. They have hooks into the kernel. The kernel hooks are under GPL so those are released, but the binary Blob code is completely of their own making and is not under GPL. They merely make 2 seperate parts, where one has to be under GPL and the other is proprietary.

I believe even if the user is applying the modified hinge, it is still patent infringmenet, since the hinge is the patented part.

 

[Soulkiller]

I would like to also mention that Pandora uses a Hall effect sensor to determine whether the lid is closed or open. Basically when the speaker magnet gets close to this sensor which resides in the bottem portion of Pandora, it gets set of and registers as the lid being closed. Now I'm not exactly sure on how close the magnet has to be but its possible that if the screen extends out so the back of the screen is touching the backside of the bottem (flush) it might trip this sensor and depending on what you have it set to, might turn off your screen or put itself in Stand-by. Another problem with this kinda of modification. Although don't get me wrong, if some kinda of aftermarket product was released so I could do this I would get it in a heart beat

 

[nimnimnim]

my first thoughts on the screen was lawks, it's unrotatable widescreen! farthest from suited for vertical shmups.
well too late to vote for 4:3 aspect ratio.

what would be cool though would be if there could be sold an alternative pandora casing for the screen part, making it detachable (above the hinge) using some connector for the cablage and having such a connector on the side as well so you could put it in vertical.

the user could do the replacing/modding himself..

as long as it'd be fastened tightly (any brute fastening system would be worth it ) this would be well acceptable for rotate function use case

 

[CandidStan]

Dear Readers,

I looked around and didn't find this thread anywhere so if it is link or delete this. I know the pandora's not even out yet, but I had a few questions. I really think a tablet pc would come in handy for me in the future, but there is no point in going and spending more money on one. Acourding to what we no know (Layout of circuits, wires ect), would it be possible to make a simple swivel mod so the touchscreen could turn over the keyboard to form a tablet? If so, could it be done without compromising the size of the pandora and without changing its general appearence. I honestly like love the way the pandora looks, and am not trying in any way to insult anyone. To me it seems like the touch screen would be aquard to use the stylus on, unless the screen is tilted from a 90 degree angle to a 180 degree angle (sorry for the geometry). If anyone has any info please include links. Give me your opinions.

Thanks for listening,
-Spadoof :gp2x

You soon will be mine andora1:

This has already been discussed to death. Read the wiki. If you want to mod your own Pandora, be my guest.

BTW: there's a little thread at the top that says "We are no longer taking hardware suggestions."

 

[ingrin]

This has already been discussed to death. Read the wiki. If you want to mod your own Pandora, be my guest.

BTW: there's a little thread at the top that says "We are no longer taking hardware suggestions."


Yes there is, of course, the post you quoted was made over a month before that thread came into being...
If you want to pretend to be a mod, tell nimnimnim about the sticky about things you dont do (gravedigging)

 

[jhoff80]

A little off topic really, but someone above claims that the Newton had the best handwriting recognition even to this day. That's entirely untrue, really. Mac OS X has an above average handwriting recognition setup. However, what's better than both the Newtons and OS X by far in this department is Vista. I know, I know, everyone hates Vista blah blah blah, but its handwriting recognition is absolutely amazing.

 

[Karel Jansens]

A little off topic really, but someone above claims that the Newton had the best handwriting recognition even to this day. That's entirely untrue, really. Mac OS X has an above average handwriting recognition setup. However, what's better than both the Newtons and OS X by far in this department is Vista. I know, I know, everyone hates Vista blah blah blah, but its handwriting recognition is absolutely amazing.

Two points:

1. From what I've learned from other people's experience with Inkwell (OS X) on various homebrew Mac tablets, it's seriously inferior to NewtonOS 2.X's HWR engines. Inkwell is based on Rosetta, the print-only recognizer for the Newton. It's learning capabilities, if at all present, are limited and it tends to be slow and choppy.

2. The handwriting recognition in all Windows Tablet editions is licensed and basically ParaGraph, the fantabulous cursive recognizer in the Newton. You're quite right that it's better than Inkwell, but you've clearly not used a Newton if you pertain that it's better than that Green Brick.

So yes, the Newton has indeed the best recognizer in the world, but most importantly, NewtonOS is still the only operating system that is built around the use of the pen. I know from experience that Windows HWR (PenOffice) is very good, but you quickly forget about all that when you're hobbling your way around a user interface that doesn't know you're using a pen.

 

[Tensuke]

I suppose there's no way of emulating the newton at all...It's a shame, such great technology being put under such limits and restrictions. Curse you, corporations!!

 

[Spadoof]

Candid Stan: This has already been discussed to death. Read the wiki. If you want to mod your own Pandora, be my guest.

BTW: there's a little thread at the top that says "We are no longer taking hardware suggestions."
-July 18th 2008

I started this thread may 15 2008................................Way before that thread was ever made, just because a thread is at the top of the list dosent mean it just came out.............Thanks for paying attention

-Spadoof

Edit: I see I missed Ingrin has already said what I just did............................. I Just was reading through this thread again and stumbled upon the comment and had to write something right away. Thanks Ingrin.

 

[jhoff80]

A little off topic really, but someone above claims that the Newton had the best handwriting recognition even to this day. That's entirely untrue, really. Mac OS X has an above average handwriting recognition setup. However, what's better than both the Newtons and OS X by far in this department is Vista. I know, I know, everyone hates Vista blah blah blah, but its handwriting recognition is absolutely amazing.

Two points:

1. From what I've learned from other people's experience with Inkwell (OS X) on various homebrew Mac tablets, it's seriously inferior to NewtonOS 2.X's HWR engines. Inkwell is based on Rosetta, the print-only recognizer for the Newton. It's learning capabilities, if at all present, are limited and it tends to be slow and choppy.

2. The handwriting recognition in all Windows Tablet editions is licensed and basically ParaGraph, the fantabulous cursive recognizer in the Newton. You're quite right that it's better than Inkwell, but you've clearly not used a Newton if you pertain that it's better than that Green Brick.

So yes, the Newton has indeed the best recognizer in the world, but most importantly, NewtonOS is still the only operating system that is built around the use of the pen. I know from experience that Windows HWR (PenOffice) is very good, but you quickly forget about all that when you're hobbling your way around a user interface that doesn't know you're using a pen.


You're right that I haven't used a Newton, though I did watch a video of its handwriting recognition on Youtube before I made the previous post. It looked in the video like it would only recognize either print or cursive, not both at the same time, though I guess that's incorrect?

I'll agree that it looks pretty similar, makes sense if its that technology licensed, and that the Newton was probably much better designed specifically around pen input compared to Windows, but I think the Vista version of the handwriting recognition panel specifically has evolved past the Newton one. I mean first of all, the Vista handwriting recognition is a huge improvement from XP Tablet PC edition, which was also based on the Newton technology. Secondly, the actual input panel is better equipped for making the few corrections that you need to make in Vista from what I can see in the Newton video. Lastly, I don't know, maybe it is just as good, but the only video I saw of the Newton one had very clear handwriting. Is it as good as the Vista one at recognizing horrible handwriting such as the two links below? (Warning, you'll want to mute the horrible music on the first link. The second, the picture, is actually me using the 1.5" circle of a touchpad mouse on my Dinovo Edge keyboard to try and write, so there's quite a bit of slipping and everything was still recognized the first time.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANgzQizAkFg

 

[Karel Jansens]

You're right that I haven't used a Newton, though I did watch a video of its handwriting recognition on Youtube before I made the previous post. It looked in the video like it would only recognize either print or cursive, not both at the same time, though I guess that's incorrect?

Partially. It's true that Newtons have two HWR engines: Rosetta and ParaGraph. Rosetta (the Apple one) recognizes print only, but is rather good at that, while ParaGraph is the cursive recognizer. I do know from experience that ParaGraph recognizes print just fine (as it should, because it's basically easier than cursive recognition) with the added benefit that it won't stumble over the occasional "jointed" letters.

QUOTE
I'll agree that it looks pretty similar, makes sense if its that technology licensed, and that the Newton was probably much better designed specifically around pen input compared to Windows, but I think the Vista version of the handwriting recognition panel specifically has evolved past the Newton one. I mean first of all, the Vista handwriting recognition is a huge improvement from XP Tablet PC edition, which was also based on the Newton technology. Secondly, the actual input panel is better equipped for making the few corrections that you need to make in Vista from what I can see in the Newton video. Lastly, I don't know, maybe it is just as good, but the only video I saw of the Newton one had very clear handwriting. Is it as good as the Vista one at recognizing horrible handwriting such as the two links below? (Warning, you'll want to mute the horrible music on the first link. The second, the picture, is actually me using the 1.5" circle of a touchpad mouse on my Dinovo Edge keyboard to try and write, so there's quite a bit of slipping and everything was still recognized the first time.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANgzQizAkFg



First of all, Newtons don't have input panels; you write anywhere on the screen and, depending on how you set your preferences, text gets inserted either where you wrote it or at the "caret" (Newtonspeak for cursor).

Secondly, it's very hard for me to ascertain bad handwriting recognition quality, as I have a very good and clear handwriting style myself (I used to dabble in calligraphy, which might explain it). I get pretty much 100% correct recognition in English and almost the same in Dutch (due to smaller, community-developed dictionary). Other Newton users without my passion for handwriting have reported similar results on ParaGraph. That's mainly because of ParaGraph's excellent learning capabilities, something which I suspect might explain the results in that video.

As to the recognition of your choppy sample, I won't pretend to be an expert in HWR algorithms, but it is my understanding that a computer "sees" handwriting differently from us: It tends to go for general direction and length of strokes and ignore most zigzags.

On a personal note, and not to be taken as an argument, I find Vista's recognition of unreadable handwriting rather disturbing: Any technology that facilitates sloppiness should be outlawed IMO. B)

I suppose there's no way of emulating the newton at all...It's a shame, such great technology being put under such limits and restrictions. Curse you, corporations!!

Actually: http://code.google.com/p/einstein/

It's a far cry from being finished or even usable, but as OpenEinstein already "runs" ("lurches" would be a more accurate description) on the Nokia Itablets, there's not much keeping it from running on the Pandora.

There is one problem with it: To run OpenEinstein requires a Newton ROM image (because it's not exactly an emulator) and the only way to get a Newton ROM is to own a Newton. I cannot stress this enough: Warez-ing Newton ROMs (assuming OpenEinstein goes mainstream) is the surest way of killing the project. Not only because Apple will be over it like a ton of -- well, apples I'd assume, but also because the developers will pull the plug.

 

[MilanC]

I guess it will be possible to rotate display using xrandr...so I'll use my Pandora with vertical screen, keyboard left of the screen, whenever I'll need handwriting recognition.

*Just hoping that I can find some nice handwriting recognition software*

Anyway, I'll probably use a keyboard most of the time (built-in, or external if can I get pants with big enough pockets )

 

[Karel Jansens]

*Just hoping that I can find some nice handwriting recognition software*

Let me save you some time there:

FOR LINUX, THERE ISN'T ANY!!!

(sorry 'bout the shouting; I get frustrated on this)

 

[MilanC]

My handwriting is quite good (though small), and I only use print... so no problem

I might try graffiti-clones, too. Simpler letters -> faster writing? (after learning curve, of course)