Pandora Tablet Mod

[mali]

QUOTE
Nubie, that's almost exactly what I meant. Like I said, the only big problem I see is that, if you reverse the screen, you'll need a way to mirror the wires and contacts and I can only see that happen with a loose adapter (you're going to need two: one for the screen in the "normal" configuration and one for tablet mode).

Why an adapter? You could make the pin layout of the connector this way:

0-1-2-3-4-5-6-5-4-3-2-1-0

Didn't think of that one. Let me know when I can order mine. :lol:


Have you looked at the pic, yet?

Edit:
I've buried the idea of a convertible mod for now. This picture describes it better:
http://gbax.com/pandoraPCB1.jpg
There are far too many connections to be fed through. If one would add converters to the Pandora and to the screen to reduce the number of connections(like on a desktop 15pin plus touchsreen and speakers) it would be more feasible. But that would be much work and you don't know if there is enough room for the controllers.

 

[Karel Jansens]

Have you looked at the pic, yet?

Hey, if it were easy, I'd do it myself. B)

QUOTE
Edit:
I've buried the idea of a convertible mod for now. This picture describes it better:
http://gbax.com/pandoraPCB1.jpg
There are far too many connections to be fed through. If one would add converters to the Pandora and to the screen to reduce the number of connections(like on a desktop 15pin plus touchsreen and speakers) it would be more feasible. But that would be much work and you don't know if there is enough room for the controllers.


But the connections are fed through, aren't they? I mean, if they weren't there'd be no pictures on the screen, right? The dev guys must use cables and plugs to connect the stuff, so at least theoretically one could obtain these, rewire them and Robert'd be your wife's brother. I wonder how things look on the screen's side...

(Disclaimer! The author of the above post is a non-curable optimist and stubbornly refuses to believe anything is really impossible. Like, really, you know)

 

[cosam]

I've buried the idea of a convertible mod for now. This picture describes it better:
http://gbax.com/pandoraPCB1.jpg
There are far too many connections to be fed through.


This is the picture you ought to be looking at. The connector you need is on the right.

 

[mali]

I've buried the idea of a convertible mod for now. This picture describes it better:
http://gbax.com/pandoraPCB1.jpg
There are far too many connections to be fed through.


This is the picture you ought to be looking at. The connector you need is on the right.


On the right is the connector that is inside the lid, on the left is the one on the board, but what does that matter? The number of connections is fixed.

QUOTE
But the connections are fed through, aren't they? I mean, if they weren't there'd be no pictures on the screen, right? The dev guys must use cables and plugs to connect the stuff, so at least theoretically one could obtain these, rewire them and Robert'd be your wife's brother. I wonder how things look on the screen's side...



This type of connector isn't meant to be plugged in and out often. It has a small(easily breakable) lid, that must be pressed down carefully to hold the cable in place and get a tight connection. You would have to use a completely different, stress resistant connector instead, if you want to do the plug-in mod. The convertible mod would have to use single flexible wires. In both cases around 50 connections is too much

But hey, who cares, the Pandora is f****** awesome as it is :lol:

 

[cosam]

On the right is the connector that is inside the lid, on the left is the one on the board, but what does that matter? The number of connections is fixed.

Using the one on the right means you could probably get away with using the original ribbon cable along with all those SMD bits on the end. It also looks like the one on the right is single sided, so you could use two back-to-back, allowing the screen to be plugged in both ways.

This type of connector isn't meant to be plugged in and out often. It has a small(easily breakable) lid, that must be pressed down carefully to hold the cable in place and get a tight connection. You would have to use a completely different, stress resistant connector instead, if you want to do the plug-in mod. The convertible mod would have to use single flexible wires. In both cases around 50 connections is too much

Yep, I'm familiar with the connectors and have plenty of broken plastic tabs to prove it ;-) You however only need the lid because there's nothing structural to keep the ribbon in place. I think with some modification (e.g. thickening the ribbon and/or enclosing the socket) it could be workable, although as you say they're not exactly designed for thousands of insertion cycles.

 

[mali]

On the right is the connector that is inside the lid, on the left is the one on the board, but what does that matter? The number of connections is fixed.

Using the one on the right means you could probably get away with using the original ribbon cable along with all those SMD bits on the end. It also looks like the one on the right is single sided, so you could use two back-to-back, allowing the screen to be plugged in both ways.

This type of connector isn't meant to be plugged in and out often. It has a small(easily breakable) lid, that must be pressed down carefully to hold the cable in place and get a tight connection. You would have to use a completely different, stress resistant connector instead, if you want to do the plug-in mod. The convertible mod would have to use single flexible wires. In both cases around 50 connections is too much

Yep, I'm familiar with the connectors and have plenty of broken plastic tabs to prove it ;-) You however only need the lid because there's nothing structural to keep the ribbon in place. I think with some modification (e.g. thickening the ribbon and/or enclosing the socket) it could be workable, although as you say they're not exactly designed for thousands of insertion cycles.

Another problem would be to put the connector in the right place, the hinge that is. The screen side is not a big problem, you might think at first, but I think, that the speakers must get an extra connector, because I think they are soldered to the extension of the main ribbon going to the board. The main ribbon would remain in the Pandora, but its shape with the extension would be impossible to use at the hinge, so you need another adaptor adding to space needed in the Pandora. I may open the Pandora to look at the innards, I like that, but I think I will close it untouched, regarding the display mod.
Of course I have already another mod in mind If I can optain a small touchpad device, like on the Sony UMPCs or Everun, i might replace one of the analogs with it. A mouse for Quake, you know

 

[jdh2550]

It definitely sounds like the best (most likely to be able to be achieved) idea is the unattach swivel and then reattach the screen (nice one Karel J)

I'm wondering if you could replace that flat cable with a bunch of wires (think really fine like transformer wire). If one did that then might there be enough flex to allow the screen to be rotated without being unplugged?

I'm thinking something like:

(1) Remove the hinges
(2) Twist the screen (putting a twist in the wires)
(3) Reattach the hinges

That gets rid of the plugging and unplugging of a connector that's not meant for that abuse - but it trades it for a whole bunch of wire that's being flexed a lot. Another possible advantage is that the dimensions of the case remain untouched - it's "just" a matter of
(a) replacing the flat cable with separate wires.
(B) making the hinges removable

(nubie - sorry for "piling on" and making your urine in broth experience worse - not sure I added much by doing that!)

 

[Megamixman]

Do we know how many pins would be required? If Mweston or someone could give us a pin count and possible the amount of space we have that could help.

Also, what about a NES/SNES cartridge type connector. We could use something like a SO-DIMM connector on one end and a PCB edge on the other. That should be small enough and provide more then enough pins. Problem is locking, but even that could be accomplished with external locks on the side. Then the problem turns to the fact that you're unplugging the LCD and plugging it back in over and over again. We need to check to see if this would cause un-necessary cyclic strain on the screen. It might make it so that we would need to run a power down on the LCD first and then only switch.

It definitely sounds like the best (most likely to be able to be achieved) idea is the unattach swivel and then reattach the screen (nice one Karel J)

I'm wondering if you could replace that flat cable with a bunch of wires (think really fine like transformer wire). If one did that then might there be enough flex to allow the screen to be rotated without being unplugged?

I'm thinking something like:

(1) Remove the hinges
(2) Twist the screen (putting a twist in the wires)
(3) Reattach the hinges

That gets rid of the plugging and unplugging of a connector that's not meant for that abuse - but it trades it for a whole bunch of wire that's being flexed a lot. Another possible advantage is that the dimensions of the case remain untouched - it's "just" a matter of
(a) replacing the flat cable with separate wires.
(B) making the hinges removable

(nubie - sorry for "piling on" and making your urine in broth experience worse - not sure I added much by doing that!)

Problem there isn't the wire, it's machining a good quality hinge. Designing and then having it machined at a quality that would make it effective would be ludicrous. There is still issues with patents after that, even if it is not being sold for profit.

 

[BookTracker]

First of all I'd like to thank Illuminerdi for the great question. Although I remember the topic coming up a couple times before, your question about the mod kit has not been answered afaik.

I'm no law student. I couldn't do it if I tried. The patent law system as it stands bothers me, as i feel it stifles innovation.

However, with the laws in mind, doesn't the patent only apply to an assembled product, and not a kit?

I present to you the scenario where I run an electronics store. Inside my store, I sell capacitors, resistors, diodes, potentiometers, processors... you get the point. I also sell a book with plans to make many patented electronic items. At no point in the process did I violate patent, as I never actually recreated the patented invention in question.

Now, back to the hinge scenario - what you would need to know up front, is what exactly is patented. From a legal perspective, the language of the patent is important. What about the hinge is actually patented? Is it the hinge itself? If that's the case, you could simply buy the hinge from a supplier that is paying royalties to the patent holder, and sell the mod-kit as it is.

Is it "an electronic device with a touchscreen that swivels?" If that is the case, you are not violating patent by selling the kit. The person that puts the electronics in the kit is violating patent.

Since you are catering to the DIY crowd anyways, chances are very good you can skirt around the whole patent issue, legally, by forcing the modder to violate the patent themselves when they use your kit.

I welcome a correction from the community if I am wrong. I just spent about 20 minutes looking up patent related info on wikipedia - so in no way am I an authoritative source.

-edited to add uncertainty

just extending this post,
for what i understand of laws, which isnt all that much... if person A makes a kit(like you said, did not infringe patents), and I person B buy it and use it, im not infringing anything either, since no money was made off of it.

in essence, no one can interfere with you in the privacy of your own house/life.
patents are made to protect ideas over monetary resource gathering, but that's the limit of it i believe, cash revenue.

i may be wrong here, and certainly the topic has fled from this point, but still... maybe there is no danger in this. and you can legally corner any issues.


cheers.

 

[mali]

I suggest those, who think about a mod, to actually look at a connector of that kind in real. They are really flimsy, its SMD. To get an idea, look at the size of the USB port and the SD card on one of the pics. You can count the number of contacts in the pic, where the connector itself isn't attached, yet. Transformer wire is a joke, right?

 

[nubie]

I wonder if there are a lot of redundant power and ground connections, using thicker conductors could possibly let us move to a smaller pin count.

Maybe an ATA 40-pin, or a mini-ATA 44-pin cable and connections would work? Use 20-22 conductors, and then when you flip it the connections are mirrored.

Get a flat ribbon cable made up that solders directly to the ATA socket/pins and plugs into the hinge area.

I don't know how hard it would be to mill, depends on the design . It would be so very cool to make this happen.

I was thinking of the face buttons and D-pad for playing games , but you are correct that you can use the shoulder buttons, and in fact the touchscreen, for eBook/PDF use .

No need to apologize anybody, I love it that we are all thinking together on ways to get this done .

 

[mali]

I wonder if there are a lot of redundant power and ground connections, using thicker conductors could possibly let us move to a smaller pin count.

Maybe an ATA 40-pin, or a mini-ATA 44-pin cable and connections would work? Use 20-22 conductors, and then when you flip it the connections are mirrored.

Get a flat ribbon cable made up that solders directly to the ATA socket/pins and plugs into the hinge area.

I don't know how hard it would be to mill, depends on the design . It would be so very cool to make this happen.

I was thinking of the face buttons and D-pad for playing games , but you are correct that you can use the shoulder buttons, and in fact the touchscreen, for eBook/PDF use .

No need to apologize anybody, I love it that we are all thinking together on ways to get this done .

I didn't think of that, good point!
Redundant groundings seem likely. If every connection has got a corresponding solder pad on the traces, one could solder thin wires and circumvent the ribbon connector completely on the board side. Your HDD connector idea is really good, too.

Edit:
On the display side, you could etch a breakout pcb with an appropriate connector, to interface the ribbon.
But after all, the one big hurdle remains. The connection must be flexible at the hinge, so the right wire is crucial and the space is very limited.
The best would be just to buy a second Pandora and do a total conversion, throw out the keyboard completely and build a tablet.

A little program that creates a shortcut to lock the keys, if you want to use the Pandora folded out 180 degrees, would be enough at the end. So you don't accidently press buttons when in semi tablet mode.

 

[jdh2550]

Transformer wire is a joke, right?

Not a joke, no - but ill informed almost certainly. Sorry about that. I'm just a know-nothing software engineer and I was trying to come up with the finest gauge of wire I could think of.

Here's a link to a PDF of the datasheet for a PSP like display: http://document.sharpsma.com/files/LQ043T3DX02_SP_122805.pdf - it shows 40 wires on the connector. This isn't the Pandora screen but I'd imagine it's going to have a similar connector.

My point is that rather than having a flat SMD cable of 40 wires or a 40 way IDE plug was to have 40 individual wires in a "trunk" that could be twisted. You could just take an IDE ribbon cable and separate all the wires.

I don't think the hinge problem is any different between a plugged version and a "twist the cable" version. All I'm suggesting is that you don't unplug the screen but have enough "slack" to allow it to twist before being re-mated with the bottom half.

Not having to deal with unplugging and plugging back in would be a good thing, right? Less mechanical issues to deal with.

So, apart from a dumb statement about wire choice - is this just a bad idea in general? If so, why?

(I'm not worried about patents - this isn't going to be designed into the unit being sold - just an aftermarket mod - I can't see the patent holder worrying about a few hundred (at most!) folks modifying their pandora in such a way that might infringe a patent - nor someone selling a kit).

EDIT: if you look at page 7 of that PDF you will see that there's very little redundancy in terms of ground and power - I think you *might* be able to reduce the count by 9 total.

 

[Megamixman]

Transformer wire is a joke, right?

Not a joke, no - but ill informed almost certainly. Sorry about that. I'm just a know-nothing software engineer and I was trying to come up with the finest gauge of wire I could think of.

Here's a link to a PDF of the datasheet for a PSP like display: http://document.sharpsma.com/files/LQ043T3DX02_SP_122805.pdf - it shows 40 wires on the connector. This isn't the Pandora screen but I'd imagine it's going to have a similar connector.

My point is that rather than having a flat SMD cable of 40 wires or a 40 way IDE plug was to have 40 individual wires in a "trunk" that could be twisted. You could just take an IDE ribbon cable and separate all the wires.

I don't think the hinge problem is any different between a plugged version and a "twist the cable" version. All I'm suggesting is that you don't unplug the screen but have enough "slack" to allow it to twist before being re-mated with the bottom half.

Not having to deal with unplugging and plugging back in would be a good thing, right? Less mechanical issues to deal with.

So, apart from a dumb statement about wire choice - is this just a bad idea in general? If so, why?

(I'm not worried about patents - this isn't going to be designed into the unit being sold - just an aftermarket mod - I can't see the patent holder worrying about a few hundred (at most!) folks modifying their pandora in such a way that might infringe a patent - nor someone selling a kit).



Connectors were made to be plugged and unplugged. Most wires were not made to be twisted and untwisted on a regular basis. Those that were are generally way too thick for this application. You're putting a lot of cyclic stress on what ever you use. The difference is in the design.

Also, don't skimp on ground and power pins. LCDs have multiple power domains, depending on how they operate. For instance, you don't want the inverter and digital logic on the same direct power plane. Rather the Inverter's power plane needs a filter in order to prevent power ripples from surging back to the logic.

As for more specs, look for a datasheet for the Archos LCD. Since that is the same LCD used here, it should provide all the info we need.

In terms of patents, you have to remember these are not copyrights. Both the use of a swivel hinge such as those in patents, as well as the mechanism in which such a hinge operates are likely patented. Patents for a single idea often come up in more then one way. That means whomever wants to distribute them has to have patents for one, the other, or both depending on the situation.

 

[jdh2550]

Connectors were made to be plugged and unplugged.

But not all connectors were made to be plugged and unplugged on a regular basis. A USB plug sure; an IDE 40 way plug not so sure - but you're right, probably fine.

QUOTE

Most wires were not made to be twisted and untwisted on a regular basis. Those that were are generally way too thick for this application. You're putting a lot of cyclic stress on what ever you use.

OK, I hear you but I'm not convinced. As long as you have stress relief either end where the wires join to the connector I don't think twisting the wire through 180 degrees once or twice a day would be that big a deal. Twisting it rapidly back and forth repeatedly might be an issue. The other thing in "my" favor is that the twist won't all happen at one point but will be transferred along the length of the wire.

But, don't worry, I'll stop asking for now - - I might give it a go when I get my pandora.

QUOTE

In terms of patents, you have to remember these are not copyrights. Both the use of a swivel hinge such as those in patents, as well as the mechanism in which such a hinge operates are likely patented. Patents for a single idea often come up in more then one way. That means whomever wants to distribute them has to have patents for one, the other, or both depending on the situation.


The hinge isn't a swivel hinge. It's a removable hinge. Think of a simple hinge on your door. There's one part that attaches to the door, and one part that attaches to the door frame and a bolt that goes through the loops and allows it to hinge back and forth. Take out the bolt and separate the two halves. Turn one half through 180 degrees. Now put back together. So, mechanically it's a question of making it easy to separate and reattach the hinges and having a symmetrical design such that the hinge will work when reassembled.

 

[mali]

Regarding wires, the only thin and half-way flexible that comes in my mind is the one that is used for notebook mice. Transformer wire is meant to stay in place, it is just enameled solid copper. Bending won't occur on the full length, it will bend more at the weakest spot and easily break. If you have a detachable connector-less design, you wouldn't have fun long enough with the Pandora, before it is broken.

Maybe the clamshell design turns out not to be so bad at all, regarding tablet funktionality. You can use the keyboard to rest your hand(if you keylock first), while you write or tap on the screen. I remember handwriting on my Pocket PC to be a pain, because my hand cramp quickly because there was no place to rest the hand.

 

[cbp]

How much would it cost for modding this?

Wouldn't it be just as cheap to just buy another screen and place it on the other side of the lid?

 

[hobbyman II]

why not just send power and a single fibre optic strand to the screen?, code the video inside the Pandora case, send it down the fibre optic strand to the decoder chip, then convert the optical signal inside the case holding the display to drive it, or if IR is fast enough then polish the inside of the hinge mechanism and use an IR receiver in the screen housing to send the data to the display, you could maybe send the power inductivly through the metal hinge and the data opticaly, no physical connection as such at all.

if you look around you will find several devices available that can send video data wirelessly, maybe use a 2.4 gig transmitter and just a power cable and a receiver to power the screen?

hobbyman

 

[Megamixman]

How much would it cost for modding this?

Wouldn't it be just as cheap to just buy another screen and place it on the other side of the lid?

Would require redesigning the PCB. I highly doubt enough power is being delivered to power 2 Inverters. Craigx has also said the whole thing is packed tight, so the chance of there being space for a 2nd screen is very low.

 

[cbp]

How much would it cost for modding this?

Wouldn't it be just as cheap to just buy another screen and place it on the other side of the lid?

Would require redesigning the PCB. I highly doubt enough power is being delivered to power 2 Inverters. Craigx has also said the whole thing is packed tight, so the chance of there being space for a 2nd screen is very low.
I'd be ok with just using one screen at a time. With a simple switch on the side you can choose which screen is active.
You'd only need a flex ribbon connector that would connect 2 LCDs to same PCB connector, and with a switch to choose either LCD.

A kit could contain:
- A copy of the existing lid design with a hole to fit the screen. The lid would be a bit taller than the original. (maybe 5mm)
- flex ribbon connector with 2 exits controlled by a button situated on the side of the lid.
- another screen.

With this you break no patents, and you don't have to pay for them either.


This also creates more space, and by removing the speakers more mods can be done. (I don't use speakers usually, especially in public)


-----------------------------

A cheaper kit, but this one requires R&D:
- A copy of the existing lid design with a hole to fit the screen. The lid would be same as the original but with a hole in it. (i.e. doughnut style)
- A tight cover for the screen with the same color as the lid.
- Hard drive rack style reinforced connectors.

With this design you slide out the lcd and reinsert it to point in the other direction.
The only hard thing is to make the connector strong enough to resist over time, and to allow it to accept an inverted cable connection.
I guess this can be easily done by attaching another jack to the connector ribbon in an inverted manner.
When you insert the LCD you only use one jack.