Suggestion on Input.

[Rouji4256]

This thread is about the possibilities of other inputs.

I am not sure if there are similar threads but all I see right now are about full the layout of the Physical Keyboard.

Firstly, I am a Singaporean student who is starting my first year on Computer Engineer who recently came across the Pyra so I may not understand a lot of this marketing and hardware development challenges.

I heard of the OpenPandora from Gamester81 and has since been interested in the project but due to the events which took place in America, I lost interest and faith in the project after a while.

Nevertheless, I'm very excited and happy when I found out that the project is still alive and is getting a successor.

Yet, after considering the addition of the DragonBox in my daily life. I feel that it is missing its appeal as an everyday computing device for everybody.

The main reason why its missing that appeal in my opinion is strongly because of it's limited capabilities due to the Physical Keyboard.

Yes, you heard me right. The Physical Keyboard.

The keyboard makes it unappealing aesthetically and less user friendly as a portable device, the fact that candybar touch capacitive mobile phones are dominating the industry, and even in the high end market like Vertu proves something. 

I feel that EvilDragon should look into other ideas such as a secondary screen on the bottom that acts as a touch keyboard so we can have more proper DS emulation as well as other functions.

By adding a secondary display, we will have:

- more reading space in vertical scale like the 3DS browser,

- more freedom for application developers (more space to work with, the reason why iPhone is a full touch capacitive device),

- more multi tasking functionality when keyboard isn't used,

- optional touch pad mode for those used to laptop,

- active digitizer writing pad.

The last one seems ridiculous for a small device but users who want an electronic dictionary that uses custom database such as myself, need to write the words down when trying to find the word due to the fact that the language is hard to read. An example is Japanese, there are a lot of "kanji"s that are hard to read and obscure and oftenly, a handwriting input helps greatly when trying to find the word in the database.

This does not mean that the game controls should be changed, just that the nubs should be moved either below or above the D-Pad and Face Buttons respectively.

A 4:3 screen can then sit between the game controls.

Of course, the battery life and price will take a hit due to the additional screen and this target emulator users more than developers who are into computing.

But I believe that this direction should be explored by DragonBox so as to expand the userbase and get more people into the hype.

Obviously, I'm not saying DragonBox Team should look at this and implement it immediately in their first product in the DragonBox line but to look into the possibilities of other input methods such as this in their 3rd of 4th product.

Overall, all the possibilities and ideas are targeted more towards everyday users so it may not be in favor with a lot of the existing members and supporters of the Pandora Project as I understand a lot of supporters are looking for a super portable linux computer with awesome battery life and that is why, I strongly suggest that this should come as a 2nd variant of the product. An experimental branch with limited stocks to test the waters. It will be risky but I feel that after 1 or 2 sequel to Pyra, it will be more feasible for the then already built up userbase.

Also, in one of the blog entries.

EvilDragon talked about the stylus and touch input for the screen on the Pyra, will the screen then be "flimsy" like the 3DS since that seems to be the way the team decides to choose?

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, unless there's an affordable display that can simulate physical keys (means: You need to be able to feel the keys, not just see them), that probably won't happen.

Also, it would need use a lot more power, as a display is one of the most power-hungry parts of the device.

 

[TrashyMG]

I can't see how you see the keyboard as a limiting factor, to me it's the most enabling and drawing factor to the device.  While the Pyra does have a touchscreen and I rarely use it on the Pandora as I find them clumsy for real world applications. This device will run a native desktop linux OS, it's not going to by default run a touchscreen friendly OS like iOS or Android. The device itself is kind of a niche for people that seek physical controls, which are lacking in current popular devices like tablets, phones and other devices only geared for gaming. 

 

[moxie]

This is some kind of record, innit? I can't recall when we last had such a long time inbetween successive "I think you should remove the keyboard, look at all the touchphones" posts. I almost get a bit nostalgic

 

[bzar]

My reaction is the same as in this thread.

(the thread is on slightly different topic, but my reaction is the same)

 

[Grench]

Another person who doesn't understand the device wanting it to be 'just like device X' that already exists.

The keyboard isn't a detriment.  It is a primary function of the device.

 

[Ziz]

I think the whole clam shell idea is bad... How about something like a flat design? Like the Nintendo 2DS? :>

 

[rygD]

It is probably best to combine the 2.  If it is flat with no keyboard one large display can be used, which I think is how the 2DS is made.  There are plenty of bluetooth controllers now, so there really isn't much use for that stuff on the Pyra.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Hi Rouji4256, what you say may well be true, in terms of mass market appeal. However not all products are designed for the mass market.

There are a certain subset, myself included, who would rather have and are willing to 'pay the consequences' for a hardware keyboard.

The Pandora is currently the only hand held device with a hardware keyboard & gaming controls. This puts it in a rather good niche IMHO. My suspicion is that if the Pyra can be shown running games like Minecraft at a decent speed or we end up (in a couple of years) with an x86 version running steam then the niche may be a little bigger than some people think

 

[Urben]

Maybe there is a other device which fits your needs better than the Pyra...

Spoiler

 

[FBnil]

* keyboard/active digitizer writing pad

Let me tell you that cellwriter (2 years already on the OpenPandora) has handwriting-to-ascii/unicode input for Ogham, Runic, Tagalog, Unified Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics, Balinese, Hangul, etc... what not. And it works quite well, but you need to train it. In the end, I type faster than I write.

* missing its appeal as an everyday computing device for everybody

This device is not for everybody, just as Linux is not for everybody. It does accomodate for a fairly heterogenous group of people though. But this is not an apple *(thank God)

* EvilDragon should look into other ideas such as a secondary screen on the bottom

That he did... that he did... An additional E-ink display was discussed. (Sorry, too lazy to look up the link, but it was awesome). And we need to be careful with copyright violations, one claim and bang... there goes the device.

*users who want an electronic dictionary

should buy just that... an electronic dictionary. Alternatively, you can search google by just saying the words in android devices (and yes, there is android for the openPandora). Now, for just a search with an application, well, cellwriter in combination with that software comes to mind...

*screen then be "flimsy"

If you mean resistive, then yes, the screen will be resistive, just like the OP. Reasons are several, one of them is accuracy, an android stylus is fat, very fat. You are unable to close a window with that

Compare 8mm fat:

with:

 

[Rouji4256]

Thanks for the replies!

 

[FBnil]

You are welcome. Thanks for your input.

 

[Rouji4256]

With Ziz's suggestion on a Candybar design, I think it will make writing on a resistive screen much comfortably. Since the resistive screen requires a higher pressure input, will it work well when only holding the bottom part of the device without damaging the joint or push it further back when at opened 120゜?

 

[Rouji4256]

Additionally, does it requires much pressure which will damage the surface of the screen with prolonged use? Since I'll be using it as an electronic dictionary as well which means handwriting is a huge factor.

Sorry for the multiple edits, there was something wrong with my phone which caused some errors.

 

[WizardStan]

I used to doodle with the Pandora, held virtically like a book, keyboard half in my left hand and stylus in my right, worked wonderfully, including pressure sensitivity. I don't know where the idea that you need "much pressure" comes from but at least on every device I've used it doesn't take very much pressure at all; a little more than the feather touch of capacitive screens sure, but just a light press will do, no need to go stabbing it.

Rub your fingers together, just enough that you can feel your fingerprints. That's all the pressure that is required.

 

[thatgui]

Overall, all the possibilities and ideas are targeted more towards everyday users so it may not be in favor with a lot of the existing members and supporters of the Pandora Project as I understand a lot of supporters are looking for a super portable linux computer with awesome battery life and that is why, I strongly suggest that this should come as a 2nd variant of the product. An experimental branch with limited stocks to test the waters. It will be risky but I feel that after 1 or 2 sequel to Pyra, it will be more feasible for the then already built up userbase.

Are you actually saying that the best way to do this, is Lenovo style - remove the features that make a brand unique one by one, so not everybody jumps the ship at the same time, but eventually arriving in the consumer market with a "one in a million" device that has noting left of its original merits (and userbase) ?

 

[Rouji4256]

I used to doodle with the Pandora, held virtically like a book, keyboard half in my left hand and stylus in my right, worked wonderfully, including pressure sensitivity. I don't know where the idea that you need "much pressure" comes from but at least on every device I've used it doesn't take very much pressure at all; a little more than the feather touch of capacitive screens sure, but just a light press will do, no need to go stabbing it.


Rub your fingers together, just enough that you can feel your fingerprints. That's all the pressure that is required.

Thanks for the clarification, may I know if handwriting works in alternate orientation?


Like holding it the way you described but writing it as per normal (right end of the screen is facing you)?

 

[Rouji4256]

Overall, all the possibilities and ideas are targeted more towards everyday users so it may not be in favor with a lot of the existing members and supporters of the Pandora Project as I understand a lot of supporters are looking for a super portable linux computer with awesome battery life and that is why, I strongly suggest that this should come as a 2nd variant of the product. An experimental branch with limited stocks to test the waters. It will be risky but I feel that after 1 or 2 sequel to Pyra, it will be more feasible for the then already built up userbase.

Are you actually saying that the best way to do this, is Lenovo style - remove the features that make a brand unique one by one, so not everybody jumps the ship at the same time, but eventually arriving in the consumer market with a "one in a million" device that has noting left of its original merits (and userbase) ?

I'm referring to a branch.


Like having Pyra Standard and Pyra Duo.


Something like in the OpenPandora talk, when ED gave a back history in which there was a split. Making one for the full desktop experience users and one for more casual users who are looking for a pure portable device for use as a PDA (hard to imagine now due to Android dominating the market but things may be different after a few Pyra cycles, which is why I am suggesting looking into it for future purposes)


Of course, Linux isn't for everybody or casual users. But I think it will be something like Canook. Not everybody can use the device fully but most retro gamer will appreciate it.

 

[bzar]

Regarding a separate device: let's put this into the "potential future projects after Pyra has at least paid for its development" folder.

That said, since there ARE devices that can be used for retro gaming (maybe with the exception of real 2 screen DS emulation) available today, what would the Duo version bring to the table that other devices already don't? The keyboard is one of the biggest differentiating features pandora has (and pyra will have) in addition to being ground up developed for running a full linux distro. Any such device would be quite a bit more expensive and have older hardware than what the big players can push out. Why would the large masses opt for a Pyra Duo when they can have the latest iteration of Shield or somesuch? The reason pandora has sold (AFAIK) relatively okay is because it serves a specific niche a lot better than anything else on the market. Trying to please the already tended to large masses would mean competing directly with the big players which is pretty much an unwinnable fight at this point. Pyra can flourish in its niche or be beaten to obscurity in the mass market.