Retro VGS indiegogo campaign. (changed title)


The Retro vgs is not an Android console, so its unaffected by the fate of such consoles I would say. 

What it needs is the same thing any other console needs, kick-ass games that are EXCLUSIVE to the system. 

All Android consoles only ever get ports of shovel ware flooding the system, theres actually some nice games for Ouya I think but it gets drowned in an ocean of crap, and I don't know of any of the better games that are exclusive. One good thing about the Retro vgs is that it will require an investment to create the cartridges, a couple of dollar per cart is the production cost I think, hopefully that will scare off shovel ware ports, it needs not an ocean of titles but good enough effort and exclusive to the system titles.
 
The kickstarter for this is happening soon, possibly this month.

I'm kind of excited about this or at least interested in following it's progress. I'm not sure about the fpga approach though.

Still it could be fertile ground for new retro game experiences. I may back the campaign if I have the funds.

Website http://www.retrovgs.com/home.html
 
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Intersting.  I was just checking into this again while looking at other FPGA based products and wondering why no real new information had been released.
 
rygD said:
Intersting.  I was just checking into this again while looking at other FPGA based products and wondering why no real new information had been released.
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Yes. Its seems the full specs have yet to be released. Fpga code for say an atari 2600 could be included on a cart along with a new 2600 game. The retro vgs would then operate as a 2600 and run the game.
An arm chip is also present in the console.
 
I was hoping for a ballpark figure on price prior to the Kickstarter.  I will probably just wait, that way I can make sure there are at least a few games I am interested in.  I think it is a wonderful idea, but I don't know if I am willing to invest in the idea if there are no games I want to play.  Give me some FPSs and a some really good science fiction or horror stuff of some sort and I could probably find a couple hundred bucks.  Give me a bunch of games that I really want to play and as long as it is around the price of modern consoles I will get one.  

There haven't been a whole lot of titles that I was really looking forward to in the last couple of generations of consoles.  I can think of one new Xbox 360 and Xbox One title that I have skipped since I have no interest in those consoles or that company (although some of the older titles from Rare are rather appealing, including a couple of my favorites, Perfect Dark and Battletoads).  There are some PS3 and PS4 games I probably will enjoy eventually, if they can still be played when I get around to them, and while I came close to getting a PS3 a few times and have seriously considered buying a PS4, it never happened.  I do have every console from Nintendo except a New 3DS, and some games I really like, and want to get a few more sometime soon, however I more often turn to my older consoles, or a computer or my Pandora.  The games that I want to play on PS3/4 seem a bit expensive to buy into right now.  If they can get some titles that hold my attention better than what Nintendo has done recently then I can return to playing modern console games, even if that console is intended to revive old ways of doing things.

I was reading a discussion about LAN or online play on their official board and really can agree with those that are for allowing online play.  I don't have many people locally that I play games with, and usually they want to play completely different games.  Good games and online multiplayer will be a good combination and help sales.  I guess I will go play Mario Kart for a bit (which still sells new consoles).
 
I don't really get this. I understand retro-style games, I even understand a framework that's limited to making retro-style games. But why use FPGAs? Why use cartridges? Those just pointlessly increase costs and limit functionality and distribution. For what they're aiming for there's no point in doing their framework outside of software/firmware, there's no point in making people print mask ROMs on PCBs instead of using SD cards.

I get they're making an argument about wanting media that lasts a really long time, but will it matter if the console itself can't be replaced and no working copies remain? This is one reason emulation has gained a lot of attention. A software framework can be ported to other platforms. In 30 years even if no one makes compliant SD cards anymore it'll be a lot more realistic for someone to start making new ones for this purpose than to start making new RETRO VGS consoles.
 
I understand the appeal of cartridges, since it is also why I prefer them: stability.  You get the full game, it works, it will still work next week and not need to be updated, and it should still work in a few decades when it might be hard to say the same of optical discs and drives.  So a big one is durability, which you already said.  Also, for some people the carts are the big draw here, as they like console and cart collecting.  I probably would not give this any attention without cartridges.  I think they actually reduce the cost (and probably load time) for how they want to do things.  They can have a bunch of blank carts sitting around and throw the needed software on it on-demand to fill current orders, so less storage is needed.  I suppose they could just burn a disc (or copy stuff to an SD card), but then why would anyone buy games?

As I understand it, they went the FPGA route to open it up to more possibilities.  I don't fully agree with it, but it does seem like a good option for now.  I will use known consoles as examples for the next little bit, but I don't think this is exactly how they will do it.  If there is somebody that wants to make an Atari 2600 styles game, they can just use an Atari 2600 core and write the game for that.  Same for NES and Genesis.  When the cartridge is plugged in it gives a more authentic experience than trying to make a game for modern hardware have the old look and feel.  This also gives them flexibility, since they don't need to have specific hardware where anything that isn't in the box when manufactured can't be easily used.  They want to let the hardware change to meet the needs of the those who make and play games.  This helps keep the console alive longer.  

I don't know enough about the important details to say that the console can or can't be replaced.  As I understand it, more of the information needed to make a specific game work is stored on the cart, so it may require a lot less effort to remake the console, or port or emulate a game.  I do know that there are many people that don't like emulation.  The Retro VGS is trying to give a complete aesthetic experience that emulation, or just playing the same game natively on a computer, doesn't give.  If this doesn't appeal or matter to someone, they are not the target market for it.  I am sure, being on the Pandora/Pyra boards, you can understand what I mean.
 
There's no reason why something like SD cards can't be distributed and used like cartridges. They can be made write protected or at least difficult to modify.

They're worried about bit rot. That's basically their sole justification. Have they done any research and analysis into how durable standard rewritable media is if included with loads of redundancy? We're talking about simple games that shouldn't need a ton of space, if it's amplified to several times the needed space that's a ton of room for redundancy. Or is the concern that there'll be more basic systemic problems that redundancy can't solve? They say they're using some new technology, I would be very reluctant to trust that it'll take off and be available for many years.

And what about save games? Are they going to want to use battery backed SRAM even though that's probably less reliable than flash? Are they thinking of putting saves on the cartridges to maximize that retro feel, again at the cost of efficiency? Were they even thinking about save games at all, or do they envision a system backed entirely by passwords?

It'd be much easier to make Atari 2600, NES, or Genesis style games using a software framework that has those sorts of capabilities rather than actually trying to do games for that hardware. Especially 2600 which is extremely annoying to develop for. I doubt they'll get takers who would prefer to write something exclusively for their replicated consoles instead of writing homebrew for those consoles - and there aren't an awful lot of people doing that either.
 
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Exophase said:
There's no reason why something like SD cards can't be distributed and used like cartridges. They can be made write protected or at least difficult to modify.


They're worried about bit rot. That's basically their sole justification. Have they done any research and analysis into how durable standard rewritable media is if included with loads of redundancy? We're talking about simple games that shouldn't need a ton of space, if it's amplified to several times the needed space that's a ton of room for redundancy. Or is the concern that there'll be more basic systemic problems that redundancy can't solve? They say they're using some new technology, I would be very reluctant to trust that it'll take off and be available for many years.


And what about save games? Are they going to want to use battery backed SRAM even though that's probably less reliable than flash? Are they thinking of putting saves on the cartridges to maximize that retro feel, again at the cost of efficiency? Were they even thinking about save games at all, or do they envision a system backed entirely by passwords?


It'd be much easier to make Atari 2600, NES, or Genesis style games using a software framework that has those sorts of capabilities rather than actually trying to do games for that hardware. Especially 2600 which is extremely annoying to develop for. I doubt they'll get takers who would prefer to write something exclusively for their replicated consoles instead of writing homebrew for those consoles - and there aren't an awful lot of people doing that either.
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A lot of what they are doing seems to be fueled largely by passion and perhaps a little less logic. Still, I like the passion but will wait and see until the full specs and features are released, which should be soon.
 
They mentioned the specs? I dont know what to make of it, how do you code for this thing, and a maximum of native 1080p 30fps??? REALLY dont know what to make of that! I sure would want 2D games in 60fps, but not at 720p... although if you draw the graphics in low res mayby that wont matter so much anyway, if the system then scales it to 1080p cos you wouldnt want your TV to "scale" and cut of all corners of the image, you want so control over the scaling process so you can make sure the pixels align in a ok way.

http://www.gamegavel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7474

System Specifications

Disclaimer: We reserve right to make improvements and appropriate adjustments as necessitated by forces outside of our control.

Processing
 

  • Unprecedented massive parallel processing at bit level via FPGA (field-programmable gate array) with 49,000 logic elements (LEs), programmable via cartridge and/or media processor—the ultimate game enhancement chip!
  • Fast sequential processing through media processor with 32-bit ARM Cortex-A8 @ 1.2 GHz, 3-D processor, blitter, and more

Memory
 

  • 1 GiB high-bandwidth dual-channel 32-bit DDR3-1600 DRAM (102.4 Gbps) via media processor
  • 384 MiB fast 24-bit DDR DRAM and 32 MiB SDR DRAM via FPGA
  • 1 MiB shared DMA buffer

Cartridge Interface
 

  • Durable USA-made application-appropriate edge connector with thick gold on contacts
  • Media independent, supporting multiple data bus widths and switching voltage levels
  • Bus transfer speed: variable, up to 1.6 Gbps

Game Controller Interface
 

  • 4 USB (Universal Serial Bus) ports (standard A) for included game controllers, etc.
  • 2 plastic DE-9P (male) connectors with variable pinout for any classic game controller with mating connector, or similar player-built game controllers

Host Connector
 

  • 1 USB port (standard B) to host PC or other Retro VGS console for synchronized play
Audio/Video Output
 

  • Simultaneous video output via digital HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) and analog intermediate frequency (IF) NTSC (PAL support under consideration), so game sessions may easy be captured or recorded
  • HDMI CEC (Consumer Electronics Control) support planned
  • Connectivity
    9-pin mini DIN: RGB or component using Sega Genesis MK II/Nomad/32X cables
  • 4-pin mini DIN: S-Video (Y/C)
  • RCA (yellow): composite CVBS (color, video, blanking, and sync)
  • RCA (white): left channel audio or mono audio (if right channel not connected)
  • RCA (red): right channel audio
  • Power output for Sony RFU modules, for connection to televisions without line in
[*]Resolution: up to 1920 × 1080 from media processor and/or FPGA; media processor may overlay, upscale, and otherwise process video from FPGA
[*]Frame rate (maximum):
  • From media processor: 30 Hz and 60 Hz (up to 1080p/60)
  • From FPGA: 1080p up to 30 Hz (1080p/30) and 720 up to 60 Hz (720p/60), may be upscaled by media processor to 1080p/60
[*]Color palette: up to 24-bit true color (>16.7 million colors) from media processor and/or FPGA
[*]High-resolution audio output, with bi-directional audio interface between media processor and FPGA enabling flexible audio processing


Power
 

  • External global power adapter with cable/plug included for destination country

Cooling
 

  • Convection-cooled, no noisy fan to wear out

Regulatory Certifications
 

  • Global: CSA, EU CE, US FCC, US UL, etc.
 
OH! So the "MEDIA" processor can do 1080p60fps if it can, depending on what you do codewise and so on, and then the FPGA can do 1080p30 max for some reason in some way, so I guess both the "MEDIA" and FPGA writes to a common output, that the "MEDIA" writes to after the FPGA? No I dont quite get it, and I have a feeling the guy who wrote the post dont either... :)
 
Wrath of Khan said:
Kick-starter begins in September. But will I have the money. Let's see.
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I still don't know how I feel about it.  There is a lot more I need to know (will I only be able to use it with cartridges, or can I use it in the same way as other FPGA based products targeted toward the retro market? will there be any games that I really want that I can't get cheaper elsewhere? etc.).  I have decided not to buy anything I don't need except for things I have been planning on getting for a while.  I will be getting the Pyra and maybe a couple weird little things, so my gaming budget is tied up for now.  I understand they may want to surprise everyone, but it will be better for them to stop playing games and announce what is known.  Not everyone has tons of disposable income, and since they still haven't announced a price, they may lose potential buyers/funders by holding back on information until the kickstarter launches.  Like you, I may not have the money then, and I am not going to save for it if I don't see anything that makes me really want it when I have important stuff I need to spend money on.  I guess we will know more in a few weeks.
 
rygD said:
Wrath of Khan said:
Kick-starter begins in September. But will I have the money. Let's see.
Click to expand...
I still don't know how I feel about it.  There is a lot more I need to know (will I only be able to use it with cartridges, or can I use it in the same way as other FPGA based products targeted toward the retro market? will there be any games that I really want that I can't get cheaper elsewhere? etc.).  I have decided not to buy anything I don't need except for things I have been planning on getting for a while.  I will be getting the Pyra and maybe a couple weird little things, so my gaming budget is tied up for now.  I understand they may want to surprise everyone, but it will be better for them to stop playing games and announce what is known.  Not everyone has tons of disposable income, and since they still haven't announced a price, they may lose potential buyers/funders by holding back on information until the kickstarter launches.  Like you, I may not have the money then, and I am not going to save for it if I don't see anything that makes me really want it when I have important stuff I need to spend money on.  I guess we will know more in a few weeks.
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Yeah. I'm gonna keep an eye on it but reserve judgement till the campaign.
A pyra is my main gaming/computer investment for the foreseeable future though.


And a ps4 one day in the future.


These retro vgs guys talk a good game, but it remains to be seen if they walk lame.
 
They just said it might cost 300 or 400 dollar. It sounded like they were kind of asking people if they wanted a more capable and expensive system or something more limited and cheaper (at 300). I expected 150-250dollar, this puts it in a new light, and considering that the games for it will not be exclusive and probably not to good either, hmmm I guess I will just wait and see what becomes of it.
 
For 400 dollars it would have to offer something substantial. A ps4 is about the same price and that's current tech.

250.00 dollars is the max they could ask, 200.00 dollars is the magic number.
 
I am pretty sure they killed whatever chances it had when they announced the price.  Some people will buy it, just probably not enough to get exclusives and keep it going.  I can see it being useful for other things, however I have serious doubts if emus and stuff like that will be enough at that price.

I really feel the need to compare it to some handheld devices we are all familiar with so that I can point out the major similarities and differences.

Both are really designed for "retro gamers".

Retro VGS is designed to keep alive the old styles of gaming and collecting, that the major players have mostly moved away from, by trying to recreate how it used to be using modern technology.  It seems like they have plans to have a decent sized community to keep the games coming.  Decisions were made to limit it so that game developers wouldn't get lazy or abuse network connectivity, and that limited design means users will have to tinker more to get everything they want out of it, which is not a problem if you have a lot of them, including some with the time/interest/knowledge.

Pandora (and Pyra) takes advantage of modern technology to allow people to play old (and some new) games in a somewhat new, or at least different, way wherever they want, and wasn't intended to compete with the big companies.  Many of the games were already there, and this just provides a way to play them*.  The keyboard, which is useful for some emulators and games, opens it up to additional uses.  It was designed to let people do a lot with it, and (in the case of the Pandora) the problems that came up later were the limiting factor.

I know there are many other points I skipped.  Ultimately it comes down to what the target audience is, and how many sales are needed for it to be successful.  Since it relies on getting new titles they need to have people buying their games.  I suspect the result will be shovelware titles.  $250 would have been pushing, but the possible price of $400 doesn't work for me.  I know the Pyra will cost more than that.  I can also do more with it, and I can keep it on me.  I would like to be surprised by the success of the Retro VGS so that if it is still around in a couple years I can buy one.

*Unfortunately, this is also true of the Retro VGS, but you have to buy the game again even if you already own it.
 
 Carts are a blessing and a curse with this system. Yes they're cool and oldschool and last for a long time (I've got save games on NES carts my deceased grandfather made :( ) But at the same time carts limit alot of things. A 200 dollar price point with a good indie development would be amazing... Now lets say if you got a few GOOD "classic" indy games to just work with it it'd be great. Or games that people like to play together, Like Minecraft.. (Yes insane I know, but a cart with MINECRAFT on it would be amusing factor and a draw) I could see classic games being released with bundles of every version of the game optimized for the console... If it does what it does right in a kick ass fashion then it would be worth a price point at 200 dollars it would be a nice thing especially if quality indy games were produced for it. It'd be interesting to see many old games reworked for it, but I suspect licensing of many old games are own and bought up by companies like nintendo, EA, and other such things.. (Dungeon keeper is a prime example.)

I really LOVE  the idea of a cart based console because discs can get screwed up easily, and if the console load times are FAST it'd be good. But I think people wouldn't be happy with something that doesn't have 120 cores, breathes fire, can play porn and give them 3d experience of said porn, and then send that information of you watching porn to the NSA.....

Or maybe that's just me being a tiny bit cynical of current gen consoles.  I personally loved the game cube a console that many people seemed to hate, the thing was tough as a brick, portable and it did have amazing graphics for the time.. (AMD graphics.... Seee why I hope AMD can create a board for the pyra?!) The only thing that killed it was the lack of DVD player. Alot of consoles are entertainment systems for everything.. Youtube, Netflix, etc.. I don't see even the ability to connect to the internet so for alot of people thats gonna be out.. Unless it has a sold price point.. at 200 it'd be good especially if  it can do good 3d for indy games, or have titles that people wouldn't mind re getting so they could plop in and play with friends instead of messing about with cables and loading screen...

Thats one thing I think could save it in a regard is HOW fast is it able to load a game? If its lightening fast and has a quick swap out time (Take your NES carts *if you clean them* for example. I can cycle through 6 games in less then a minute.. Its hard to do that on a modern console or a computer even..Steam can't do that.. if this can get indy games that were released on steam and load them up on a cart in seconds then it would be great..

Also how much do games cost?! If they cost alot then it will not be appealing, but if its 15-30 then it would be awesome because you would PHYSICALLY hold in your hand the game.. something that steam and many services can't offer. Once you have it in your hands YOU own it. Theres no DRM to worry  about either, Etc, Etc. I hope it can work out, because it could  be a blessing in the console wars, a cheaper, friendly, slightly quirky companion to the pissing contest that is console gaming.
 
DrHAX said:
I hope it can work out, because it could  be a blessing in the console wars, a cheaper, friendly, slightly quirky companion to the pissing contest that is console gaming.
Click to expand...
You mean like what Nintendo has been doing?
 
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