Questions, Curiosities Re: the Business-end of Open-Pandora

[modzombie]

As a web developer, I know through pain and suffering that a client's deadline is a deadline is a deadline; I've faced enough repercussions (everything short of a syndicate), to avoid the bad news at all costs. I also know, in further dealings with businesses, there are many ways to mitigate this..


I'm going to take a stab at some questions, perhaps touchy, which I imagine others would like to know if they haven't asked already (and if they did, I apologize as my search yielded no similar threads):

1. Why not build the batches prior to taking orders? (See "6")
   
2. Have you tried hounding/bribing the manufacturers for faster results? Or, have you ever considered firing your outsource for another manufacturer? I know these practices seem a little seedy, but I imagine other companies do this (doesn't make it right, I know)
   
3. For the assembly process, if shortage of workers is anything to blame, have you thought of or tried hiring more people?
   
4. Do you ever want to see the Pandora get an outrageous amount of sales, or are you content now (perhaps out of fear?)
   
5. Have you thought of hiring a strong marketing firm?
   
6. If for any of the preceding questions, the reason was, "We didn't have enough money to invest", was there any interest in finding that ultra-rich, ultra-geek investor(s) who will fork over a mill (or two, or three) for you guys? If so, what happened?
   

Please note, I'm not attacking OpenPandora; On the contrary, I'm fishing for some answers I'm hoping I'll hear. I actually have a lot of faith in OP, and I applaud them for the way they've handled things (like, for example, not hiring a bunch of suits-and-ties, with no passion for this sort of thing, who want nothing more than to leach off of Craig et al).


EDIT: I guess I missed the "Investors..." thread started by Craig. However, I believe the question still applies to 1-5 here.

 

[Asiyura]

1. Because it's really expensive and they would have needed massive funds to build before selling.
2. Usually, bribing does work only if you're a company that made a huge order, not the case here. They took the manufacturers that were within their price range. But once the contract will be over, they'll change to another plastic factory.
3. That's not the problem, right now, we're waiting for the new nubs because the old ones were too prone to break.
4. They would love to sell huge amount of Pandoras, but they would need more money to pay the manufacturer's bills.
5. Marketing is expensive. Moreover, there are no units in stock, so the need created by the marketing would not be satisfied. And it turns out that the company get the opposite of what they wanted, a bad reputation instead of a lot of happy customers.
6. I think it would be the death of the Pandora, the way we know it. That would not be a community project anymore… Usually an investor that dishes this kind of massive amount of cash in a company, want to get his (large) share of the profits and so, he put loads of pressure on the company.

(sorry if I'm not perfectly clear, but in english my grammar and my vocabulary are a tad limited sometimes

)

 

[Prometheus]

Specifically about question six, this post and this post, both from a thread on the other forum (you may want to search around there for further threads if you're so inclined ), seem to be at least somewhat relevant. (I know that the links aren't directly about investors, but still, that's what I was reminded of.)

 

[Link]

As a web developer, I know through pain and suffering that a client's deadline is a deadline is a deadline; I've faced enough repercussions (everything short of a syndicate), to avoid the bad news at all costs. I also know, in further dealings with businesses, there are many ways to mitigate this..


I'm going to take a stab at some questions, perhaps touchy, which I imagine others would like to know if they haven't asked already (and if they did, I apologize as my search yielded no similar threads):

1. Why not build the batches prior to taking orders? (See "6")
   
2. Have you tried hounding/bribing the manufacturers for faster results? Or, have you ever considered firing your outsource for another manufacturer? I know these practices seem a little seedy, but I imagine other companies do this (doesn't make it right, I know)
   
3. For the assembly process, if shortage of workers is anything to blame, have you thought of or tried hiring more people?
   
4. Do you ever want to see the Pandora get an outrageous amount of sales, or are you content now (perhaps out of fear?)
   
5. Have you thought of hiring a strong marketing firm?
   
6. If for any of the preceding questions, the reason was, "We didn't have enough money to invest", was there any interest in finding that ultra-rich, ultra-geek investor(s) who will fork over a mill (or two, or three) for you guys? If so, what happened?
   

Please note, I'm not attacking OpenPandora; On the contrary, I'm fishing for some answers I'm hoping I'll hear. I actually have a lot of faith in OP, and I applaud them for the way they've handled things (like, for example, not hiring a bunch of suits-and-ties, with no passion for this sort of thing, who want nothing more than to leach off of Craig et al).


EDIT: I guess I missed the "Investors..." thread started by Craig. However, I believe the question still applies to 1-5 here.

1. There was no money to order parts to build the units. That is why preorders were taken.


2. Why should anyone have to hound/bribe a business partner. We are talking business, not the US Congress. The fact that there are currently cases in England ready for assembly is pretty shy of amazing. As for the nub company? Not sure what could be done there, they have been working on resolving the issue. The board company hasn't been the most reliable of late it seems, but would consider hounding them to be ineffective. Open communication needs to happen at a better level there is my understanding.


3. Craig has hired a team to assemble the Pandora at the Village Hall in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong here)


4. The fact that investors are being sought, I would say there is no fear in sales currently,


5. What's a marketing firm going to do? Sell more Pandoras that don't actually exist. I think once 4000 Pandoras are in the wild, they will very easily market themselves into a better position than the company is in currently. Keeping up with production, parts, and manufacturers will be the concern until those kinks are worked out or new answers are found as time progresses and new company relationships are formed.


6. I would say there were 3000 ultra-rich geeks who forked over a mil back in September/October 2008. What happened was markets stopped working properly due to a capitalist economic structure that is not sustainable. The fact the OP and the Pandora survived the hundreds of obstacles (Two Months ™ x 12) is remarkable.


Peace & Pandora,


Link

 

[wardred]

Edit: didn't need to quote the original question.


1. This is the goal for somewhere in batch 3+, I believe. OpenPandora put up the development money for batch 1, but to actually produce the product I believe they needed some of the pre-order money.


2. I don't believe they have enough money to bribe said companies. We're not talking millions, or even tens of thousands of orders...yet - the low tens should be soon. They're looking at a different company for the boards if things get delayed again, though supposedly all that need be done now is solder the nubs for, what, 5k boards? They won't jump ship if the board company works out. The original nubs company went belly up...a while ago. They're on their second company, and a few revisions of the nubs with that company, mainly with the silicon.


Eventually they may move the molds from China to the U.K., but not at this time. The case molds HAD to be developed there as the price anywhere nearer would've been prohibitive. The case company seemed slow, at first, with everything, especially the revisions. Lately they've seemed more accommodating. A lot of the problem with the cases were the revisions and its complexity. Painting, for instance, was not originally planned. The revisions are *mostly* done, so delays for revisions should soon be alleviate.


A revision to one part had a chain reaction affecting the other parts. Even if a component revision didn't force another's to be modified - as in the case of the nubs - the boards couldn't be completed until the new revised nubs were delivered. A change to the thickness of the LCD cable for copper shielding tape messed with the tolerances there, etc.


There haven't been enough of a backlog of parts at Craig's to warrant more employees...yet. He did gather a crew to get the first hundreds out the door, and I believe the plan is to have assemblers there when things actually pick up steam. The first 900k or so orders out the door saw a lot of processes improved / sped up, a few more design revisions, and a little slow down for other things where it was evident that something needed to be more thoroughly tested for quality control.


I'm sure everybody would love to see the Pandora have a ridiculous number of sales, but 10s of thousands of sales are probably what we're looking at for a home brew / emulator / smaller than a netbook PC market. I think this was always the goal, though I'm sure if somehow the Pandora sold hundred of thousands or millions, nobody would complain. Or the iControlPad for that matter, which hasn't had nearly the coverage, had one MAJOR design change to the clamps, and a lesser design change to BlueTooth / charging cable only, instead of using Apple's connector. Depending on developer adoption and Apple's and / or Android's acceptance, or at least not hindering the device, it could actually see more sales than the Pandora. A lot of IF there, and it doesn't come in with the built in audience of the Pandora, but if enough people find a use for gaming controls on their cell phones... It's a simpler device, probably with higher margins, and I don't imagine it'll have nearly the revisions / delays as the Pandora did. I like the idea of the Pandora more, but the iControlPad has a lot of potential behind it.


No idea about the marketing. I'd guess that's probably premature until the OpenPandora team is positive the manufacturing snafus have been resolved, and may not be warranted given the strong word of mouth in this community... and maybe the lack of demand outside of it. We'll see how long it takes to get the current round of components...and maybe more importantly the next round. It may be more warranted with the iControlPad which could break out of this community into the general game on a phone community.


Lack of money has always been a stumbling block, being a small project with a relatively small audience. OpenPandora looked at VC money, and it would remove too much control of the company from them.


I'm putting a lot of words in Craig's/OpenPandora's mouth, but these are the things I've seen stated over the couple years watching the project.


Edit: Triple Ninja'd. :-b

 

[modzombie]

I think it would be the death of the Pandora, the way we know it. That would not be a community project anymore… Usually an investor that dishes this kind of massive amount of cash in a company, want to get his (large) share of the profits and so, he put loads of pressure on the company.

I do agree that it *could* go against the foundations of OP (that is, the values which make open-source projects so great), however: If you're referring to pressure in terms of sales, or as Prometheus pointed out, the chances of this investor playing dictator, and twisting Pandora into some sort of bastardized gadget, I wonder if a strong contract between OP and the investor couldn't resolve any problems there.


I would have to emphasize the word "geek" here, and to take this further: It needs to be someone who shares the same passion the OP team has, and so this would need to be just as much a decision process for OP as it would the investor.

 

[modzombie]

5. What's a marketing firm going to do? Sell more Pandoras that don't actually exist. I think once 4000 Pandoras are in the wild, they will very easily market themselves into a better position than the company is in currently. Keeping up with production, parts, and manufacturers will be the concern until those kinks are worked out or new answers are found as time progresses and new company relationships are formed.

I agree, although I was thinking in terms of the conditions in "1" being met. As with any company willing to hire a firm, you need a product (and plenty of items in stock) if you want to start selling it to Joe Schmoe. I would say it's a rare thing to find people willing to buy a product before their item has been built.. Certainly, there's a whole audience there, and in this case, you gotta spend some money to make a lot more. Just seems like a huge payoff to me.

 

[WizardStan]

1 & 6: given Craig's attitude in the early days, he genuinely believed they were only a few weeks away from construction and shipping. Therefore, taking pre-orders to complete the construction did not seem to be a problem and made perfect sense. They took second pre-orders because, again, it seemed like batch 1 was almost done with batch 2 to follow immediately after.


Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.


2: I once asked why someone didn't just fly out to the factory in China. Every piece of advice I found on the internet said that was the best way to get work done in China. Craig yelled at me that they knew what they were doing.


3: Pretty sure assembly has nothing to do with the holdups; it's entirely waiting on external manufacturers.


4: Who would say no to more money? Honestly?


5: As has been said, hire the marketing firm to do what, exactly?

 

[DaMummy]

1. ok why dont you build them with your money let us know how it goes?


2. ok why dont you bribe them with your money?


3. ok why dont you go to the nub factory and work for them to speed things up?


4. no the pandora is made to go bankrupt like all other vaporware gadgets


5. ok why dont you pay them?


6. apple, nintendo, and sony already have their own handhelds, ones we want little part of

 

[EvilDragon]

I can give some answers, too, though most have been given already.


Lack of money was the main problem for not producing the units first.


Production costs for 4000 is about a million - and we only had enough money to pay fr R&D (which also is quite a big sum)


The only reason the rest of the Pandoras are not delivered yet is because of two companies: The nub company (who delivered a non-tested and failing product) and the board company (who doesn't seem to care about too much on the Pandora)


Tomorrow, according to the boards company, they should've finished all 3000 boards (just without nubs). However, they often claimed they had 500 boards ready to ship and it turned out to be 100 in reality. So we're all sceptical here.


That's also the reason we've started to look into other companies. We already have some promising looking contacts. Might be too late for batch 1 to move to a different production site, but we sure can't continue like this.


It's not sure we'll switch yet - if the company finally decides to speed up and deliver the finished boards reliable and within their timeframe, we're happy to keep working with them. But if they don't, it would be suicide to keep working with them...


There are also companies that offer production and assembly in one place - that would also be need.


Assembly is no problem at the moment, the team can manage 150 - 200 Pandoras per day.


Regarding bigger batches in the future: Yes, sure. If demand is there, why not sell more Pandoras? However, until all the issues in both production and hardware are solved (i.e. screen bezel, reliable production, etc.), we need to stay small.


Aditionally, we couldn't afford producing big batches right now, that does cost a lot of money.


Same for marketing: As long as we want to stay small, there's no need for marketing, as we would get more sales than we could deliver.


So, basically:


1. Finish Batch 1


2. While doing that, work on fixes and reliable companies


3. Increase batches with demands


It's really a bit disappointing. We have a working, finished product (with small quirks, but that's normal for a first revision with most products) - and the only thing that's really holding us up are the external companies contracted to produce it...


But we'll work on that. It can't be as hard as designing and developing the whole thing - and we managed to do that, too (with a lot of help from the community, like DaveC, notaz, DJWillis, skeezix, vimacs, etc.)


And I'm sure we can manage the rest, too. Might not be easy, but with a strong community, it should be possible.

 

[WizardStan]

The only reason the rest of the Pandoras are not delivered yet is because of two companies: The nub company (who delivered a non-tested and failing product) and the board company (who doesn't seem to care about too much on the Pandora)

Point of order: unless I'm mistaken, the board company is pretty much the only company that has at least come close to holding some kind of deadline. It was the case manufacturer that took 8 months to complete a 30 day design project, and then another year to actually deliver what should have only taken a couple weeks after design was completed. If not for them, you would have had product out in 2009, discovered the nub issue much earlier and we'd all be happy right now, no?

 

[benji_stein]

The only reason the rest of the Pandoras are not delivered yet is because of two companies: The nub company (who delivered a non-tested and failing product) and the board company (who doesn't seem to care about too much on the Pandora)

Point of order: unless I'm mistaken, the board company is pretty much the only company that has at least come close to holding some kind of deadline. It was the case manufacturer that took 8 months to complete a 30 day design project, and then another year to actually deliver what should have only taken a couple weeks after design was completed. If not for them, you would have had product out in 2009, discovered the nub issue much earlier and we'd all be happy right now, no?

I was about to object, and then noticed WizardStan beat me to it.


I second this.


The primary company to be mad at is the *CASE* company, which yanked your chain for months about tweaks, and another week for painting, and all the rest. The nubs are secondary, though still negligent as they clearly hadn't tested the originals.


The board company is a little to blame, since they kept giving times for batches of 500, and then producing less, but that's substantially less bad than the case company. Plus, you have been jerking *them* around for a bit, making them hold off on production (stopping and starting) since you were waiting for cases.

 

[EvilDragon]

The board company is a little to blame, since they kept giving times for batches of 500, and then producing less, but that's substantially less bad than the case company. Plus, you have been jerking *them* around for a bit, making them hold off on production (stopping and starting) since you were waiting for cases.

Well, yes and no.


The nub company has tried anything to solve the issue now (in a really fast time) and the cases have also advanced.


I've yet to see a speedup by the board company.


If they continue with 100 boards a week, it would be 30 weeks until batch 1 is finished - and that's not an option.


Hopefully, they already have all (or most of the needed boards!) ready now.


We shall find out soon, I guess.

 

[Xenu]

Well, yes and no.


The nub company has tried anything to solve the issue now (in a really fast time) and the cases have also advanced.


I've yet to see a speedup by the board company.


If they continue with 100 boards a week, it would be 30 weeks until batch 1 is finished - and that's not an option.


Hopefully, they already have all (or most of the needed boards!) ready now.


We shall find out soon, I guess.

They have a few weeks before the nubs arrive. They were saved by the bell, I guess.

 

[benji_stein]

Well, yes and no.


The nub company has tried anything to solve the issue now (in a really fast time) and the cases have also advanced.


I've yet to see a speedup by the board company.


If they continue with 100 boards a week, it would be 30 weeks until batch 1 is finished - and that's not an option.


Hopefully, they already have all (or most of the needed boards!) ready now.


We shall find out soon, I guess.

I respectfully disagree. The nub company has tried to solve things very quickly, which is admirable, but we don't have any previous speeds to compare it to. Certainly, it's their fault for not properly testing them in the first place.


I saw absolutely no speed improvements from the case factory. They promised that they could make 1k cases a day (do you really want me to find quotes of this?) which they never did. They continually made deadlines for later revisions, or production, and never made them. The only reason you're not mad at them right now is because a couple thousand just arrived. But do you have a tracking number the remaining 3000 that you ordered? Are you *positive* they're on a ship? Because otherwise, why do you believe they're made yet?


That's not to say the board factory isn't to blame, as well. They also promised high numbers (500/week) that they've never yet met. And we don't know how many they're at right now, but at the very least, they're not any *worse* than the case factory. I will point out, though, that it's been said by a number of people in the past that they thought the boards would be the hang-up, which you dismissed, saying the only thing left was the cases (links upon request). So OPT gets a share of the responsibility, too.


But in the end, what's past is past, Most of us just want to be done with it, and get our Pandoras. So I guess the big question on our mind is: did the board company get back to you today with a number, and what was it?

 

[EvilDragon]

I respectfully disagree. The nub company has tried to solve things very quickly, which is admirable, but we don't have any previous speeds to compare it to. Certainly, it's their fault for not properly testing them in the first place.

Yes, it certainly is their fault. However, except for the one week pause where they told us it takes a while to get the new materials, they got a new prototype and test run with each new week.


Getting prototypes within 3 days and testing them immediately is what I call fast.


While it shouldn't have happened in the first place, they were really working on fixing it.

I saw absolutely no speed improvements from the case factory. They promised that they could make 1k cases a day (do you really want me to find quotes of this?) which they never did. They continually made deadlines for later revisions, or production, and never made them. The only reason you're not mad at them right now is because a couple thousand just arrived. But do you have a tracking number the remaining 3000 that you ordered? Are you *positive* they're on a ship? Because otherwise, why do you believe they're made yet?

We don't need a tracking number, as we have a forwarder who handles the shipping for us who has nothing to do with the company, so yeah, we know they are there.


They DID make 1k cases a day. But that excludes shipping and any setup, etc.


We're not they're only customer. They sometimes have leadtimes up to 1,5 months. The cases had been done within a few days, but painting takes way longer.

That's not to say the board factory isn't to blame, as well. They also promised high numbers (500/week) that they've never yet met. And we don't know how many they're at right now, but at the very least, they're not any *worse* than the case factory. I will point out, though, that it's been said by a number of people in the past that they thought the boards would be the hang-up, which you dismissed, saying the only thing left was the cases (links upon request). So OPT gets a share of the responsibility, too.


But in the end, what's past is past, Most of us just want to be done with it, and get our Pandoras. So I guess the big question on our mind is: did the board company get back to you today with a number, and what was it?

Well, cases are in the past, new nubs will be produced - and for the boards: They did get back to us, but not with a number.


They sent us some pictures, but only 100 boards were seen on those, so this surely can't be the answer for that.


Michael will have a conference call with them tomorrow, then we'll hopefully know more.


Thank god we already found another company to produce the boards. We'll set things up there as soon as possible. It was not planned before batch 2, but it might be we need to move production right in the middle of batch 1.


Still, it might be the picture just showed a few boards and the rest were packaged up - but we really need to prepare for worst case.


We DON'T want the Pandora be fail just because of a few companies, we're working on solutions as fast as possible.

 

[craigix]

I want to second that I'm pretty happy right now with the main companies involved apart from the board company.


However I'm not jumping the gun yet, I'm prepared to see what they have to say tomorrow.


The case company have much improved, the new batch we have clearly shows they have listened to our issues and solved them. I was very pleased.


The nub company have done all they can to solve the issues and I'm happy that the new nubs will be solid.


In order for us to ramp up production and allow for a Pandora2,3,4 in the next 10 years we have to fix the final part of the puzzle and that's making sure if we want to make 100,000 Pandora2 consoles we can rely on a board population company who can do it.


More news this time tomorrow.

 

[emcee]

Well, cases are in the past, new nubs will be produced - and for the boards: They did get back to us, but not with a number.
They sent us some pictures, but only 100 boards were seen on those, so this surely can't be the answer for that.


Michael will have a conference call with them tomorrow, then we'll hopefully know more.

That doesn't sound good.


For an outsider looking in, it does seem like the nub company is doing a decent job. I mean, yeah, they screwed up pretty bad, but it happens. But they seem to be taking responsibility for it. All this testing and prototyping can't be cheap, and when they got to 300k, they could have just said "Hey, that's the best we can do, take it or leave it", and put their machines to work on something more lucrative. What option would OPT have besides just accepting them as is? It seemed like, though, it was nub company pushing to create a better product.


The board company, on the other hand, (once again from an outside perspective), doesn't really look like they're taking the project seriously. My main concern would be that not only have they not met their own deadline to produce 4000 boards, but they'll drag their feet getting the nubs soldered on to the boards they do have (that is their job, right?). And since they don't seem to be under any contract to do anything in a timely manner, they might really dig their heels in if/when they find out they're being replaced.


Although, I don't really have a dog in this fight, personally. I have a batch 2 preorder, but I already (sort of) have a Pandora, so it wouldn't be the end of the world to me if it's another year before I see my second one. Yet I still check this board daily for updates. It's kind of like a soap opera to me now. Although, I suppose it's not as entertaining to people whose livelihood is on the line.

 

[WizardStan]

Well, cases are in the past, new nubs will be produced - and for the boards: They did get back to us, but not with a number.


They sent us some pictures, but only 100 boards were seen on those, so this surely can't be the answer for that.


Michael will have a conference call with them tomorrow, then we'll hopefully know more.

Ok, that does sound bad. I was working under the belief that every delay from the boards has been because you guys have told them to hold back as you're still waiting on other parts and didn't want bare electronics just hanging about filling up space. From that, combined with your reporting that they asserted they'd have all the boards (minus nubs) done today, made it seem like the board company was the only one actually on top of their responsibilities. For the reality to be so different from the picture previously painted is a bit of a shock. Let's hope it isn't a problem and those pictures were merely of a respective sample.

 

[EvilDragon]

That doesn't sound good.

Well, we requested pictures of the production today to show them to the community. As there is also the SMT machine and the test rig on these pictures, it might be they just showed a small batch of boards while there are more already produced.


A few weeks ago they had over 1000 finished - if that's not true, it was one of the baddest lies out there.


However, it's not good to jump to conclusions yet before Michael had a telephone conference with them tomorrow.

For an outsider looking in, it does seem like the nub company is doing a decent job. I mean, yeah, they screwed up pretty bad, but it happens. But they seem to be taking responsibility for it. All this testing and prototyping can't be cheap, and when they got to 300k, they could have just said "Hey, that's the best we can do, take it or leave it", and put their machines to work on something more lucrative. What option would OPT have besides just accepting them as is? It seemed like, though, it was nub company pushing to create a better product.

Exactly my thoughts.

The board company, on the other hand, (once again from an outside perspective), doesn't really look like they're taking the project seriously. My main concern would be that not only have they not met their own deadline to produce 4000 boards, but they'll drag their feet getting the nubs soldered on to the boards they do have (that is their job, right?). And since they don't seem to be under any contract to do anything in a timely manner, they might really dig their heels in if/when they find out they're being replaced.

Well, not exactly true. We have a written mail by them that they have all boards finished by October 18th.


It's written and therefore valid.


Now, if they didn't manage it and only go 2500 finished, that's no big deal.


But if it is way less and they even told us weeks ago there are over 1000 instead of telling us it won't work / there is a problem / whatever, you could probably take them to court and get most of the money for the whole development of the project back.


Nowadays, a technical product usually is outdated after a few months. So a company that has accepted the task of producing the boards and lying to us instead of telling us they have problems or no time, etc. is probably not having much fun if being taken to court by us...


Not something we'd love to do, we'd love to work with them to get it all going

Although, I don't really have a dog in this fight, personally. I have a batch 2 preorder, but I already (sort of) have a Pandora, so it wouldn't be the end of the world to me if it's another year before I see my second one. Yet I still check this board daily for updates. It's kind of like a soap opera to me now. Although, I suppose it's not as entertaining to people whose livelihood is on the line.

Definately. I haven't slept well for the last two months, and it doesn't seem to get better soon.


If someone offered me to shoot me, I'd probably happily accept.


Well, no need to get sentimental now. We're on it, working on solutions and we will DO it.