Questions About Shoulder Buttons

[mikademus]

Hi folks.

In the case this has been asked, I apologise. I did search before I posted.

I searched for info about Pandora's shoulder buttons, the result which was sparse, however. Anyway, it seems there will be two, and that they will be digital?

Loving my old Dreamcast, I must say that the best hand controllers always have analogue shoulder buttons. Also, having four (two for each hand), as for instance PSX, PS2 and PS3, is probably optimal. Another question on a related tone is why only four action buttons. XBox and several arcade games use six, and while I am convinced the extra two can be mapped to any other keys, it might be somewhat awkward.

Now, I read that development is so far along that further hardware suggestions are impractical, but surely four and analogue shoulder buttons must have been suggested and discussed before? (And perhaps also six action buttons)

 

[Squidge]

I believe there's only two shoulder buttons (in total) because that was the amount that the device would comfortably hold - they would have been too small, and too easy to press both if two per side was attempted. They are also digital as there were very little uses provided for analogue shoulder buttons (same goes for the 6 action buttons - there were too few reasons to use 6 over 4, considering the alternatives).

 

[Kings]

Considering the 46 other buttons, 2 more would seem redundant. There are also 2 more solder pads for L2 and R2 if you were interested in a little mod.

 

[anexanhume]

I believe there's only two shoulder buttons (in total) because that was the amount that the device would comfortably hold - they would have been too small, and too easy to press both if two per side was attempted. They are also digital as there were very little uses provided for analogue shoulder buttons (same goes for the 6 action buttons - there were too few reasons to use 6 over 4, considering the alternatives).

Considering the 46 other buttons, 2 more would seem redundant. There are also 2 more solder pads for L2 and R2 if you were interested in a little mod.

This is interesting to me because I've been thinking of ways you could do two shoulder buttons. It seems to me the easiest way to do it would be via a curved shoulder so that your index fingers rest comfortably on both buttons at once. Put the 1st button(s) near the top joint of the finger, and the 2nd button(s) near the tip. Have a stiffer click for the first set so they are hard to hit accidentally, and there you go. I think if they did that plus added the second nub to the psp, it would make a lot of people happy.

 

[nubie]

Loving my old Dreamcast, I must say that the best hand controllers always have analogue shoulder buttons.
I highly disagree, a trigger must be a trigger, there is no call for it to be analogue, I hate the long travel when it is used to fire a gun or activate a function. The ONLY excuse for analog triggers is gas/brake or a flying simulation (as rudder pedals?). But I prefer the tried and true method of vehicular control afforded by using the controller as though it was a radio control for a model vehicle. There are no good R/C systems that have dual analog triggers. None. And most models cost more than a video game system, so if it was difficult to control the expensive fast moving vehicles they would have used them if they were better.

If I have missed a reason why there should be a trigger (Like Cousin Jake's Bouncing Trampoline Emporium 10 needs analog triggers), please let me know

Personally the Dreamcast controller is the worst piece of crap ever devised, I can't cradle it properly, my hands cramp up, and both the analog stick and the dpad are useless crap. The Dual Analogs are just icing on the crap cake for me.

QUOTE
Also, having four (two for each hand), as for instance PSX, PS2 and PS3, is probably optimal.
I can't say I am entirely on your side here, most games didn't use all of the L1/L2/R1/R2 buttons, and if they did they used it as the SELECT buttons on the Xbox, see below. If you are going to complain about these buttons be sure and complain about the lack of L3/R3 (stick press) on the dual analogs, because that was necessary to the enjoyment of so many games [/sarcasm]

QUOTE
Another question on a related tone is why only four action buttons. XBox and several arcade games use six, and while I am convinced the extra two can be mapped to any other keys, it might be somewhat awkward.
So sorry that emulated Xbox games will be akward. I am also genuinely sorry they won't work in the first place.

First of all, the triggers will be the arcade controllers extra 2 buttons, secondly, the Xbox Does NOT have 4 action buttons, it has 4 action buttons and 2 select/inventory buttons.

I agree that it will be "awkward", but not nearly as awkward if there was no keyboard, as a dozen people a week come here to try to get us to remove the entire keyboard.

QUOTE
Now, I read that development is so far along that further hardware suggestions are impractical, but surely four and analogue shoulder buttons must have been suggested and discussed before?

Heck yes it is impractical.
QUOTE
(And perhaps also six action buttons)


First see above, the triggers are going to perform the main action button function for arcade games. They have however left two button pads on the motherboard so that you can personally solder on the extra two trigger/face buttons yourself.

As a small aside, you are aware that any controller that will work or convert to USB will function with the Pandora? If you are planning on a long gaming session perhaps connecting an actual game pad would be wise.

If you could provide me with a list of games that use more than 6 main action keys at a time then you may have a point, I personally don't think they exist.

Inventory/weapon cycling/special combos do not need to be on a main action button. I think 6 is pretty good considering. There really isn't room for any more. Have you seen any other handheld with more than 6 action keys? I didn't think so.

 

[.Gogeta§§J4BR.]

judging from the fact that it's going to emulate a lot of systems, i don't think its absurd to think it could have more face buttons, but I think 4 is ok
what I'm afraid of is how thumb-hurting it would be to play it, especially with those tiny L&R buttons =`\ still buying, though

 

[Mr B]

Analog buttons... Doesn't the PS2 controller have this? Supposed to sense how hard you press, and respond accordingly? Regardless, i cant remember anything that actually used it for anything good. It's a button for gods sake. It's on / off. The behavior is digital, regardless what you wanna call it.
B!

 

[Red Ring Rico]

Personally the Dreamcast controller is the worst piece of crap ever devised, I can't cradle it properly, my hands cramp up, and both the analog stick and the dpad are useless crap. The Dual Analogs are just icing on the crap cake for me.

Haha, it must only be me and my brother who can use and appreciate the DC controller =P.

BOT, I think that nubie is right in that if it is analogue, it would have to be a trigger mechanism, not an Xbox-like analogue button.

 

[waffles]

nubie has RAAAEG.
Personally i thought the dreamcast controller was decent, i just dislike the springiness of the analog stick, or at least mine.

 

[Pleng]

Loving my old Dreamcast, I must say that the best hand controllers always have analogue shoulder buttons.
I highly disagree, a trigger must be a trigger, there is no call for it to be analogue, I hate the long travel when it is used to fire a gun or activate a function. The ONLY excuse for analog triggers is gas/brake or a flying simulation (as rudder pedals?).

As a fan of racing games, the only reason I bought a dreamcast was Daytona and Sega Rally, and these analogue shoulder pads were a god-send (until I got my wheels, but even then it's not practical to always have them set up). In fact my excitement about the possibility of dreamcast emulation drained somewhat when I remembered about the analogue shoulders. Playing Daytona without analogue acceleration and braking would be nigh-on impossible as hitting full throttle often sends the car off in a hissy-fit! It's not such a problem with Sega Rally but Daytona really relies on that analogue system.

QUOTE

But I prefer the tried and true method of vehicular control afforded by using the controller as though it was a radio control for a model vehicle.



How does that work then?

 

[WizardStan]

Playing Daytona without analogue acceleration and braking would be nigh-on impossible as hitting full throttle often sends the car off in a hissy-fit! It's not such a problem with Sega Rally but Daytona really relies on that analogue system.

Two analogue sticks, remember? Map the accelerator to one of them (or if you're fancy, map both triggers to one: right shoulder = up and down, left = right and left on the stick).
There's enough of everything everywhere on the Pandora to account for anything!

 

[nubie]

Personally the Dreamcast controller is the worst piece of crap ever devised, I can't cradle it properly, my hands cramp up, and both the analog stick and the dpad are useless crap. The Dual Analogs are just icing on the crap cake for me.

Haha, it must only be me and my brother who can use and appreciate the DC controller =P.

Well, it was only my opinion.

QUOTE
BOT, I think that nubie is right in that if it is analogue, it would have to be a trigger mechanism, not an Xbox-like analogue button.


I am confused, my Xbox controller has an analog trigger, in that it wipes through quite a few degrees with precision as though it is a potentiometer.

As does my Dreamcast controller.

I don't understand "trigger mechanism", do you mean a plain switch (no analog), or an analog button (press harder for more), or a complete analog wiper system?

The xbox "press harder" pissed me off, I would find I was only at part throttle when watching a replay in Forza, maybe I should see if they offer a control mode that has full digital button mapping.

I agree with WizardStan on this one, the Pandora has just about everything, 4 analog axis and 6 action buttons should cover just about anything.

The device is not really an emulation machine as much as it is a great general purpose machine.

I don't see how they could add two more triggers, analog triggers, or 2 more face buttons (it is Reeally small you know.) But they won't stop you from doing it if you want to. Maybe a case/glove with additional controls could be made for the extra buttons, because now there isn't a lot of room.

 

[Pleng]

Playing Daytona without analogue acceleration and braking would be nigh-on impossible as hitting full throttle often sends the car off in a hissy-fit! It's not such a problem with Sega Rally but Daytona really relies on that analogue system.

Two analogue sticks, remember? Map the accelerator to one of them (or if you're fancy, map both triggers to one: right shoulder = up and down, left = right and left on the stick).
There's enough of everything everywhere on the Pandora to account for anything!


Indeed its an option. It would be interesting. It may even be fun. But the controls in that case would be radically different enough for it to not be the same Daytona as on the dreamcast (that and the fact it'll more than likely run at about 10fps ). Up for accel and left for brake.. having one thumb doing the work of two fingers. It sounds odd!

 

[Red Ring Rico]

I don't understand "trigger mechanism", do you mean a plain switch (no analog), or an analog button (press harder for more), or a complete analog wiper system?

As in the triggers underneath both the Xbox and Dreamcast controllers.

 

[nubie]

I don't understand "trigger mechanism", do you mean a plain switch (no analog), or an analog button (press harder for more), or a complete analog wiper system?

As in the triggers underneath both the Xbox and Dreamcast controllers.

So an analog wiper then. OK.

I prefer it if at least the analog wiper has a switch at the bottom so that I can feel when it really clicks.

 

[PokeParadox]

I don't understand "trigger mechanism", do you mean a plain switch (no analog), or an analog button (press harder for more), or a complete analog wiper system?

As in the triggers underneath both the Xbox and Dreamcast controllers.

So an analog wiper then. OK.

I prefer it if at least the analog wiper has a switch at the bottom so that I can feel when it really clicks.

So more like the Game Cube

 

[nubie]

Since it won't fit anyway, maybe we should model the gun with the physics of the hammer mechanism and the interlock, might as well add an RFID safety to it and nightvision goggles with an IR LCD. It doesn't really matter.