Pyra Status? Pyra lite? Upgraded SOC?

[Wrath Of Khan]

I've been away from the boards a while but I do still check in every now and again and Iv'e been in touch with ED a few times.
So, the Pyra project has had alot of ups and downs and as a result has been delayed quite considerably with only a trickle of units out in the wild; and well a lot of various handheld systems have been released since the Pyra was announced too.

I understand that currently it costs more to manufacture one Pyra than what Ed actually sells it for.

Does the Pyra need a fresh injection of life?

What is the feasibility of upgrading to a new SOC- the current one is outdated, certainly in terms of emulation- Gamecube, PS2, Wii etc.
That said the Pyra still has potential but I think it really needs a new SOC- what do ye think? I think ED could start to recoup some of his investment with a new SOC and fixed cases- sales would surely rise.

What options do we have for a new SOC? I fear at the current rate the Pyra is dying a slow death.

Is there any plan to get additional funding? The pyra has sales potential if the case issues can be sorted and a new SOC inserted. There are still case issues right?

Askarus' suggestion of a Pyra lite might be one possibility. Remove the cellular modem and any unnecessary stuff. However this might require significant re-designing?

Is there any mad, totally left-field plan for the Pyra like we had several times back in the days of the Pandora. there was pre-order madness, investors, donations etc.

This is not intended to be a criticism of Michael in any way- rather I'd like to see the Pyra succeed, particularly because ED has put so much time and money and hard work into this device; all of which I appreciate.

It sure was fun here back in the Pandora days...

 

[pyrat]

I've been away from the boards a while but I do still check in every now and again and Iv'e been in touch with ED a few times.
So, the Pyra project has had alot of ups and downs and as a result has been delayed quite considerably with only a trickle of units out in the wild; and well a lot of various handheld systems have been released since the Pyra was announced too.

I understand that currently it costs more to manufacture one Pyra than what Ed actually sells it for.

And I think it will be more of the same for any redesign unless an order or magnitude more money is invested in its development.
Many delays could be overcome throwing money at problems: new molds, new PCBs, etc, more prototype iterations, etc.
But that would just increase the loses.
I'm not sure the investment needed for a new Pyra (lite or not) can be recoverable given the rest of available handhelds in the market.
The only possibility would be take the form factor and most of the case design and respin it with new battery, some CPU PCB that
is compatible with some other project, and upgrades peripheral/outputs. That would likely require more space, and since it can't be made
much more thicker, we should find a slimmer battery. I don't know details, but batteries have improved in density (or maybe not for the ones that are easy to source?).
Maybe it'd be possible, maybe not, but it would be a redesign from scratch, saving just the concept. That's very expensive.
I don't think the effort, time and money can be recovered by lots of units sold.

What options do we have for a new SOC? I fear at the current rate the Pyra is dying a slow death.

I don't know any current SOC I'd like to have. Light on energy or heat but good enough in freedom ? None that I know.

Is there any plan to get additional funding? The pyra has sales potential if the case issues can be sorted and a new SOC inserted. There are still case issues right?

I think the case issues can only be fixed by new molds (expensive) or some other kind of case (3D printed ? CNC ? would the result be useful and usable ?
and how expensive?).

Askarus' suggestion of a Pyra lite might be one possibility. Remove the cellular modem and any unnecessary stuff. However this might require significant re-designing?

Sure. But changing the SOC is already a lot of redesigning.
You need:
- new PCBs (at least CPU and connector PCBs)
- new case
- some kind of fan ?
- likely new battery
- apparently some better antenna or insulation or whatever it is... If you still want some radio.
It's like a complete redesign, no matter how you look at it. I don't see a simple thing that you can replace for something new and make the Pyra more attractive..

This is not intended to be a criticism of Michael in any way- rather I'd like to see the Pyra succeed, particularly because ED has put so much time and money and hard work into this device; all of which I appreciate.

It's not Michael fault. It's mostly we couldn't know hardware development is so expensive before trying, and a little that design by committee might be too slow for the market pace.

It sure was fun here back in the Pandora days...

I wasn't involved with the Pandora, never had one or cared. But those were happier days in general. I find less fun in general anywhere. Internet isn't what it used to be, nor is the world.
It's like people who enjoyed life back then are just surviving right now (if they're still alive) and have worse concerns than the Pandora's progeny.

 

[netcat]

we are going to start recompiling all sorts of retro games so they run natively on the pyra. this will happen. just wait.

 

[TeDaDeS]

It sure was fun here back in the Pandora days...

It was

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

And I think it will be more of the same for any redesign unless an order or magnitude more money is invested in its development.
Many delays could be overcome throwing money at problems: new molds, new PCBs, etc, more prototype iterations, etc.
But that would just increase the loses.
I'm not sure the investment needed for a new Pyra (lite or not) can be recoverable given the rest of available handhelds in the market.
The only possibility would be take the form factor and most of the case design and respin it with new battery, some CPU PCB that
is compatible with some other project, and upgrades peripheral/outputs. That would likely require more space, and since it can't be made
much more thicker, we should find a slimmer battery. I don't know details, but batteries have improved in density (or maybe not for the ones that are easy to source?).
Maybe it'd be possible, maybe not, but it would be a redesign from scratch, saving just the concept. That's very expensive.
I don't think the effort, time and money can be recovered by lots of units sold.


I don't know any current SOC I'd like to have. Light on energy or heat but good enough in freedom ? None that I know.

I think the case issues can only be fixed by new molds (expensive) or some other kind of case (3D printed ? CNC ? would the result be useful and usable ?
and how expensive?).

Sure. But changing the SOC is already a lot of redesigning.
You need:
- new PCBs (at least CPU and connector PCBs)
- new case
- some kind of fan ?
- likely new battery
- apparently some better antenna or insulation or whatever it is... If you still want some radio.
It's like a complete redesign, no matter how you look at it. I don't see a simple thing that you can replace for something new and make the Pyra more attractive..

It's not Michael fault. It's mostly we couldn't know hardware development is so expensive before trying, and a little that design by committee might be too slow for the market pace.


I wasn't involved with the Pandora, never had one or cared. But those were happier days in general. I find less fun in general anywhere. Internet isn't what it used to be, nor is the world.
It's like people who enjoyed life back then are just surviving right now (if they're still alive) and have worse concerns than the Pandora's progeny.

Then progress might be brutally slow for the Pyra. If indeed any redesign is prohibitively expensive then we might be stuck with the current Pyra for quite some time. The daughterboard was intended to make upgrading the SOC easier and it was intended to be cheaper for the end user. Might it not just mostly be software that would need adjusting if we went with an upgraded SOC? Unless, it required more power then a different battery would be needed etc. Pity, the Pyra is a nice device but it's not the same as the Pandora era- nowadays there are many UMPC options- back then the Pandora was unique and alot of fun.

 

[netcat]

the trend these days is for ultra cheap devices. pyra is not. i think pyra will outlast all the anaemic stuff. retro gaming is not a moving target. we will never emulate later generation consoles, when the games got bloated and uncreative. we should treat the pyra as a uniquely high quality device built to last and we should focus on being better programmers to get more out of it. as long as we find a way to keep it connected and on a recent kernel i see a bright future.

 

[matzesu]

Well, even this Anbernic GBA SP is twice as fast as the Pyra whit Omap5, and about 7 times cheaper, so there is not an object reason for an Pyra sadly,
Its got mostly an Subjectional Vallue, the fun of waiting for the Device, the Community, its curiosity factor etc ..

Its a cool device but technical a bit outdatet ..

 

[pyrat]

Then progress might be brutally slow for the Pyra.

Likely. But it might be random. Sometimes the hardware just gets to someone with the right knowledge and the right time on their hands and software fixes move quicker.
It doesn't need lots and lots of people. But lots of people increases the chances, because it's a lottery.

If indeed any redesign is prohibitively expensive then we might be stuck with the current Pyra for quite some time.

Please note that I'm not an electronic engineer, I'm not involved in the design or building of Pyras and I'm generally bad at business management. Maybe I'm as wrong as one can be.
I just ordered a Pyra years ago, must be relatively late in queue, and kind of feel bad that ED is losing money and still trying to serve Pyras, so I'm averse to having him lose more money in risky projects.
Maybe it's just my guilty feeling

The daughterboard was intended to make upgrading the SOC easier and it was intended to be cheaper for the end user. Might it not just mostly be software that would need adjusting if we went with an upgraded SOC?

The new SOC requires designing a new PCB. That's as expensive or cheap as once thought back in the day (except that new SOCs are increasingly less freedom respecting, but that may be more important for me than for the rest of the community).
Newer SOCs and newer RAM might require more difficult PCB design and debugging, and maybe more revisions, but that's not the worst.
Still, having the SOC in a modular PCB is still good, and has not lost its advantages.
But there are issues in other parts besides the SOC.
The assembly is slow because of flaws in parts of the case that need manual work. That's not SOC related. There's that problem with the battery lid.
The peripherals will eventually feel outdated, so the other PCB will need redesign and even the interface between the two PCBs might need redesign if newer connectors are desired.

I think the problem is the design is too expensive for the size of the community. It's not that it can't be done. And the size of the community will only decrease as newer models of Pyra appear.

That's why I thought the solution might be having the Pyra form factor, and keyboard and general look and feel, maybe even leave the lid as is (despite some insensitive margin in the touchcreen if I understood)
and change the internals so that we can use some SOM from another project (Rapsberry, MNT, or whatever). This way the Pyra community gets divided, but synergies with other projects might compensate.
But this is easier said than done.

The point is that the current Pyra is well designed but has some remaining flaws. If you change the design you'll introduce more flaws, and that will require iterations and that's expensive.
The more you change the more new flaws and iterations. But the less you change the more outdated the result will be and might not be worth the effort.

So I think netcat is right. It's better to build the remaining Pyras as stock last, think if new stock can be ordered if there are then orders pending and interest seems still present, using the same existing design,
and concentrate in the software. Maybe new gadgets are more and more powerful, but old devices aren't less powerful than they were before.
If it could run useful or fun software before it will still run it forever. It's just stuff like security updates and so that we need to worry about, not features.

Unless, it required more power then a different battery would be needed etc. Pity, the Pyra is a nice device but it's not the same as the Pandora era- nowadays there are many UMPC options- back then the Pandora was unique and alot of fun.

That's the other problem. The market is different, and the future is uncertain. Will we get a Cold war of tariffs and embargoes that leaves the West with fewer options and maybe more stable component markets instead
of the crazy short life cycles for devices that we have now ? Will the future market be more open or closed to small participants ? Will the west lost access to eastern gadgets and increase the demand for western gadgets in some way that may benefit projects like the Pyra or will just be a couple of megacorporations and nothing outside of that ?
I don't know.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

Well, even this Anbernic GBA SP is twice as fast as the Pyra whit Omap5, and about 7 times cheaper

To me, those two couldn't be more different, so not comparable. It's like comparing it to an apple, which just goes rotton after a few weeks (and starts to attract flies).

Being over 8 years on a waiting list, clearly quite a few changes will have occurred for all involved, but it still doesn't take away from the uniqueness of t Pyra.

 

[matzesu]

For me the Pandora was back then at first an Emulation Device as i did need something for playing Gameboy Games but i was too narrow minded to just buy an GBA SP as i allready had an Gameboy Micro, so an whyrd Handheld whit Linux, an OS i allready heard of but not experienced myself was sounding good enough for me to trow 350 € on it .. ^^

That its also was an Linux Notebook, so also usefull even for writing small Stuff was something that came later ..

Most of the time i used the Pyra as an Emulation Device, even capable for Dreamcast allthough the Emulator still dont got an GUI other than an File Manager, ..

So if i would search for an Device today just to Emulate Gameboy and i would not had the Background whit the Pandora and this Community, i would rather take the Anbernic SP

(i got me the Anbernic SP by the way: its a cool Device, but the Dreamcast and PS1 Emulator runs not that good like on the Pyra) ..

 

[netcat]

Its a cool device but technical a bit outdatet ..

You mean outcrippled.

Have you considered gaming on your iPhone?

 

[asimov-solensan]

I still think the project is appealing to linux enthusiasts and productivity in this form factor.

Sadly it has too many flaws in its actual status for a daily use. And I don't have faith of getting most of them fixed.

I totally think the design is fine for its niche. If it was only possible to get a more up to date SOC with better linux support.

I wanted it for gaming as I did with Pandora nowadays it can't compare to android in this regard. Be it emulators, native games, winlator. It is only getting better and better. I would like to have android in Pyra because of this.

I still miss this kind of device whenever I'mnot at home. That's why I still follow the progress. Sadly, I almost have no use for Pyra right now.

 

[matzesu]

You mean outcrippled.

Have you considered gaming on your iPhone?

No, the only phone where i really did game in the past where the Sony Experia Play (which was actually a quite nice Emulator Device back then), and the Galaxy Note2, but expect a bit Solitär, Snake98 etc, i did not play anything on the I-Devices ..

In fact: The Pandora was in the time bevor the Smartphones my Internet Device ^^

I dont say the Pyra is bad, but its mostly Sympathie and not Technik that keeps its Fanbase..

 

[netcat]

I dont say the Pyra is bad, but its mostly Sympathie and not Technik that keeps its Fanbase..

this is a mean thing to say.

pyra is not about gaming for almost all of us. we are linux lovers, coders, scripters, tinkerers, etc. and pyra is the best linux palmtop ever. the fact that it has gaming controls means the community includes many retro gamers which is why it's so cool.

 

[asimov-solensan]

this is a mean thing to say.

pyra is not about gaming for almost all of us. we are linux lovers, coders, scripters, tinkerers, etc. and pyra is the best linux palmtop ever. the fact that it has gaming controls means the community includes many retro gamers which is why it's so cool.

I guess this changed over the time. Because Pyra was made with gaming in mind, as it was Pandora, which was born as a gp2x mod or unofficial successor.

Just look at all the ED's posts trying to get the best shoulder triggers, face buttons, dpad and analogs.

If the project keeps evolving I don't want it to strive away from gaming.

That said, as a linux enthusiast I would still be interesred in a non-gaming Pyra.

 

[netcat]

of course we're all gamers.... what i meant to say is what the pyra is actually used for will be linux more than gaming for most. coding is even more fun (and addictive) than gaming after all. real gamers don't use handhelds

 

[matzesu]

The Buttons are also quite usefull even if you are Non Gamer, the Nubs as Mouse where something the Pandora might have been an Pioneer Device, on the Steamdeck per exemple this dosnt work half as good as on the Pandora/Pyra, for me the Pyra and Pandora where mostly Gaming Handhelds, and thanks to the PND/DBP System i had quite easy to use it even though i have quite poor linux Knowledge..

 

[pyrat]

of course we're all gamers.... what i meant to say is what the pyra is actually used for will be linux more than gaming for most. coding is even more fun (and addictive) than gaming after all. real gamers don't use handhelds

I'm not a gamer. I only play free games very occasionally. But I know I'm the weirdo here.
But yes, the Pyra is a combination of a handheld linux console/desktop and a retro emulator for gaming. And it is open, and has this particulart community.
That's it's niche. There are other emulators and other handheld consoles, but apparently nothing that is both at the same time. At least as far as I know.
I haven't used a Pandora nor a Pyra, but I assume the gaming controls will be useful with browsers and desktop apps too, just as @matzesu says.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

I guess this changed over the time

Perhaps for some here. I've always thought of the Pyra as a unique hacker/tinkerer device. Gaming controls add to the options for tinkering, and are a nice bonus in terms of adaptability.

 

[netcat]

Actually... Remembering.... I wanted the pyra originally as a remote control for my lego mindstorm w/GoPro. With alternate Linux distro on it of course.

@pyrat you should game . I know it takes effort but it's rewarding if you have the time. I started gaming again a few years ago this community inspired me to be more serious, actually complete games. I play mostly cracked original consoles.