Porting Various Operating Systems To Pandora?

[Dutch_Cap]

What Operating System would you like to see ported to pandora besides Linux? Somebody suggested ReactOS in another thread.

Personally, I really liked BeOS. That's why I'd love to see Haiku, the open-source BeOS clone, ported to Pandora. BeOS was snappier on a 350 mhz AMD k6 than any Linux desktop on modern hardware, no matter how light-weight. Because of it's speed, it should be great for Pandora's relatively limited hardware (compared to PCs).

 

[Chip]

What Operating System would you like to see ported to pandora besides Linux? Somebody suggested ReactOS in another thread.

Personally, I really liked BeOS. That's why I'd love to see Haiku, the open-source BeOS clone, ported to Pandora. BeOS was snappier on a 350 mhz AMD k6 than any Linux desktop on modern hardware, no matter how light-weight. Because of it's speed, it should be great for Pandora's relatively limited hardware (compared to PCs).



Porting the OS is only the 1st step. You will then have to re-compile any and all software for the ARM processor. This is entirely more trouble than it is worth.

Is there something specific about BeOS that you think warrants this kind of effort, or do you just want it because you think it would be "cool"? If you just like the look of it I would suggest finding a Linux GUI that looks similar and go from there, because there is really no point to porting an actual OS.

 

[Karel Jansens]

Is there something specific about BeOS that you think warrants this kind of effort, or do you just want it because you think it would be "cool"?

How does "knicker-splittingly fast" sound? But yeah, the Be is also cool.

OTOH, that fasticity was probably achieved by extreme tweaking at the processor level, so bummer... ?

 

[Dutch_Cap]

Porting the OS is only the 1st step. You will then have to re-compile any and all software for the ARM processor. This is entirely more trouble than it is worth.

That should be a relatively small problem. While being technologically superios, BeOS suffers from a serious lack of software.

Is there something specific about BeOS that you think warrants this kind of effort, or do you just want it because you think it would be "cool"? If you just like the look of it I would suggest finding a Linux GUI that looks similar and go from there, because there is really no point to porting an actual OS.

Most of all I love it for the speed and the way everything ties together. Most programs on BeOS opened instantly, unlike any other OS I've used on old or new hardware. Though mostly I'd like to see it ported for sheer geeky coolness. I don't seriously expect it to happen, but I like to imagine how cool it would be.

 

[goobers]

If we can boot an OS straight from SD card, I might have a go at designing a little OS for fun

 

[randomhack]

What Operating System would you like to see ported to pandora besides Linux? Somebody suggested ReactOS in another thread.

Personally, I really liked BeOS. That's why I'd love to see Haiku, the open-source BeOS clone, ported to Pandora. BeOS was snappier on a 350 mhz AMD k6 than any Linux desktop on modern hardware, no matter how light-weight. Because of it's speed, it should be great for Pandora's relatively limited hardware (compared to PCs).



Depends : We would need drivers for any new OS you want to port. If the drivers for the Pandora are all open source OR if all the hardware details are available, then drivers probably can be written for OS other than Linux. A significant undertaking I may add but not theoretically impossible. That includes drivers for everything from connecting to display, the DSP, the SGX, wifi, the card readers etc etc.

However if Pandora ships with closed binary drivers, then either you need a Linux driver compatible OS kernel or resort to reverse engineering. Neither of which is simple and in which case you should simply forget about porting a new OS.

What Operating System would you like to see ported to pandora besides Linux? Somebody suggested ReactOS in another thread.

Personally, I really liked BeOS. That's why I'd love to see Haiku, the open-source BeOS clone, ported to Pandora. BeOS was snappier on a 350 mhz AMD k6 than any Linux desktop on modern hardware, no matter how light-weight. Because of it's speed, it should be great for Pandora's relatively limited hardware (compared to PCs).



Porting the OS is only the 1st step. You will then have to re-compile any and all software for the ARM processor. This is entirely more trouble than it is worth.

Is there something specific about BeOS that you think warrants this kind of effort, or do you just want it because you think it would be "cool"? If you just like the look of it I would suggest finding a Linux GUI that looks similar and go from there, because there is really no point to porting an actual OS.


On a related note, I am terribly interested in making a E17 (enlightenment) based UI for the Pandora.

 

[Svartalf]

Depends : We would need drivers for any new OS you want to port. If the drivers for the Pandora are all open source OR if all the hardware details are available, then drivers probably can be written for OS other than Linux. A significant undertaking I may add but not theoretically impossible. That includes drivers for everything from connecting to display, the DSP, the SGX, wifi, the card readers etc etc.

However if Pandora ships with closed binary drivers, then either you need a Linux driver compatible OS kernel or resort to reverse engineering. Neither of which is simple and in which case you should simply forget about porting a new OS.

Considering that you're going to find that at least at this point in time ImgTec, the company that supplies the GPU core used in the planned SOC for the Pandora, has traditionally refused to allow anyone, even under NDA, myself included (and I've been in the wings or the thick of Linux device driver development since the 2.0 kernels, including things like the Utah-GLX project...), that you will be hard-pressed to find them willing to help you out on that score. Odds on, unless that attitude has changed because of TI's and Nokia's new push for fully supporting Open Source in this space, the Pandora crew is going to have issues with 3D support out of the box- as all ImgTec provides is a blob driver, something that you can't really SHIP with a GPLed distribution bundle and keep in compliance with the license terms.

There's a reason the distros don't ship with 3D support on except for select AMD parts and Intel's parts- those have official FOSS drivers. Anyone shipping a distribution (or reselling hardware with it on there...) with fglrx or nvidia driver binaries is very likely to be in violation of the terms of the GPL license grant on the Linux kernel, in addition to probably a bunch of other pieces of code.

 

[Luna_Lovegod]

...On a related note, I am terribly interested in making a E17 (enlightenment) based UI for the Pandora.

Now that's a very nice idea, i think enlightment is pretty.

Do you think it is possible?

 

[Svartalf]

...On a related note, I am terribly interested in making a E17 (enlightenment) based UI for the Pandora.

Now that's a very nice idea, i think enlightment is pretty.

Do you think it is possible?


I'd think it'd be remotely possible. Depends on how much overhead it presents to the system overall. I believe it runs decently in 128Mb of RAM on an x86.

 

[Chip]

Considering that you're going to find that at least at this point in time ImgTec, the company that supplies the GPU core used in the planned SOC for the Pandora, has traditionally refused to allow anyone, even under NDA, myself included (and I've been in the wings or the thick of Linux device driver development since the 2.0 kernels, including things like the Utah-GLX project...), that you will be hard-pressed to find them willing to help you out on that score.

That is a really good question. There are only two people who know the answer. Would Craig or MWeston like to make it official on what hardware is actually going to be "open"?

 

[MWeston]

That is a really good question. There are only two people who know the answer. Would Craig or MWeston like to make it official on what hardware is actually going to be "open"?


The hardware specifics and source code behind the GL drivers will never be open source. In fact they are only provided to the development team as binaries compiled into the kernel. This is how they operate with any company as it is critical to protecting their intellectual properties. A complete SDK for OMAP3 will be available and so anyone who has coded for GL before and those new to it will jump into it the same way it has always been done for years.

Imagination Technologies has also asked about directing people to their forums to ask questions about their hardware and it sounds like they would rather help their customers that way than just leaving anyone hanging high and dry. I think that will be very beneficial as there is no one better to ask than the people who created this stuff!

Here is the link: http://www.imgtec.com/forum

 

[randomhack]

...On a related note, I am terribly interested in making a E17 (enlightenment) based UI for the Pandora.

Now that's a very nice idea, i think enlightment is pretty.

Do you think it is possible?


I'd think it'd be remotely possible. Depends on how much overhead it presents to the system overall. I believe it runs decently in 128Mb of RAM on an x86.


IMHO with some tweaks. E17 should run fine on the Pandora. Note also that OpenMoko ppl have hired the lead developer of E17 for porting it to OpenMoko. Similarly note that the Nokia N800 has a great touch based audio/video/photo player called Canola2 based on the e17 libraries. Given how enlightenment (or at least some of its core libraries) seem to do fine on these devices, I have high hopes of the Pandora which has better hardware than either of these.

Porting E17 is one of my planned projects for the Pandora the other being a PIM.

 

[Squidge]

Depends : We would need drivers for any new OS you want to port. If the drivers for the Pandora are all open source OR if all the hardware details are available, then drivers probably can be written for OS other than Linux. A significant undertaking I may add but not theoretically impossible. That includes drivers for everything from connecting to display, the DSP, the SGX, wifi, the card readers etc etc.

Well, apart from stuff like SGX, all of that is pretty much open source, and can be downloaded now by grabbing the linux kernel source.

 

[Svartalf]

The hardware specifics and source code behind the GL drivers will never be open source. In fact they are only provided to the development team as binaries compiled into the kernel. This is how they operate with any company as it is critical to protecting their intellectual properties. A complete SDK for OMAP3 will be available and so anyone who has coded for GL before and those new to it will jump into it the same way it has always been done for years.

If they're compiled into the kernel, both you and ImgTec have a serious problem.

What you just described is a full-on violation of the licensing terms of the GPL.

They can't do it, and you can't sell the Pandora, legitimately, in this condition- you'll end up in the same position that Verizon and Actiontec did over Busybox.

As for it being "critical" to protecting their IP... There's a reason AMD's releasing the tech data, etc. It's because it's NOT critical after all.

 

[ldesnogu]

I am sure MWeston meant the SGX library comes as a module. I can't imagine Imgtec would be stupid enough to put their driver directly in the kernel.

I just hope they did a good job for integration into newer kernels by providing a way for everyone to recompile some parts of their driver...

 

[Svartalf]

I am sure MWeston meant the SGX library comes as a module. I can't imagine Imgtec would be stupid enough to put their driver directly in the kernel.

I just hope they did a good job for integration into newer kernels by providing a way for everyone to recompile some parts of their driver...

Uh... Even as a MODULE, you can't ship it under many circumstances. You as a user can MAKE the module part of the system, but you can't hand it to someone else that way. It's the way the license grant on the Linux kernel works. Read up on the GPL. Unless they did something like NVidia or AMD has done, it's even more problematic. I'm not overstating this. I've done stuff that's been licensed back to the world but never got put back into the mainline kernel. You can bet your bottom dollar if I had any device drivers or key code in the kernel, I'd be contacting lawyers over it if this is actually what's going on- just like they did with Verizon and Actiontec.

 

[Chip]

There has to be a legit way to do it, or it would have already come up with other products. The Nokia N810 has a PowerVR chip and runs a Linux-based OS. They've obviously figured out a way to avoid the wrath of the GPLunatics.

 

[ldesnogu]

Uh... Even as a MODULE, you can't ship it under many circumstances. You as a user can MAKE the module part of the system, but you can't hand it to someone else that way. It's the way the license grant on the Linux kernel works. Read up on the GPL. Unless they did something like NVidia or AMD has done, it's even more problematic. I'm not overstating this. I've done stuff that's been licensed back to the world but never got put back into the mainline kernel. You can bet your bottom dollar if I had any device drivers or key code in the kernel, I'd be contacting lawyers over it if this is actually what's going on- just like they did with Verizon and Actiontec.

I am of course thinking they are doing it in a way similar to nVidia which is why I was talking about recompiling some parts...

Anyway they are pushing the delivery of the OpengGL ES driver to the IP provider

There has to be a legit way to do it, or it would have already come up with other products. The Nokia N810 has a PowerVR chip and runs a Linux-based OS. They've obviously figured out a way to avoid the wrath of the GPLunatics.

It looks like powervr is not used by Nokia...

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=11775

 

[Chip]

Having suffered through it once, I'm sure Craig and MWeston have something worked out to satisfy the GPL with Pandora. I'm sure nobody wants the GPL zealots to go into a tizzy again, like when the GP2X first shipped. That was a buzzkill I would not like to repeat.

 

[Svartalf]

There has to be a legit way to do it, or it would have already come up with other products. The Nokia N810 has a PowerVR chip and runs a Linux-based OS. They've obviously figured out a way to avoid the wrath of the GPLunatics.

Okay... You need to drop that attitude right now.

If, say for example, you breached the licensing on ImgTec's software, you can very assuredly expect them to sue your backside off with lots of lawyers.

WHY, then is it any different when someone violates the terms of licensing on the GPL?

If it weren't for all that software those "GPLunatics" wrote and assiduously protect, you wouldn't be having a Pandora to even talk about.

It looks like powervr is not used by Nokia...

It's in the SOC that they're using on the N800 at least, it's just that they can't offer 3D mode with the design decisions TI and they made. The widescreen design of the N800/N810 causes issues with it being anything other than a 3D decellerator. I know, I looked into it...