Pandora Key As Universal Menu Key Part 2

[God Ginrai]

From the first Pandora Key as Universal Menu Key, we see that "Short press to bring up app menu, long hold to kill app/bring up shell menu" seems to have won. However, now we need to decide whether the system should kill the app or bring up a shell menu when held.

My opinion is that it should bring up a shell menu, because that makes it more extensible. From there, you could still close or kill the program, and it would also give you other options such as switching between open programs or possibly launching new programs.

What do you guys think?

-God Ginrai

 

[dflemstr]

I think that you should add a n/a option to the second question.

 

[God Ginrai]

I think that you should add a n/a option to the second question.

Done.

-God Ginrai

 

[gruso]

Just some reference info for future readers. Here's the previous thread:

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?/topic/54372-pandora-key-as-universal-menu-key/

In a nutshell, the majority voted on what they want a short press of the Pandora key to do. In this thread, we discuss the long press.

 

[Trip]

Well you know what I think and I'll repost it here seeing as though it's all relevant..

Personally I'd like something along the lines of the following for the default behaviour..

In XFCE:
Hold Start Button = Open the Start Menu
Hold Select Button = Change to MiniMenu (as in Select which Desktop to use)

In MiniMenu:
Hold Start Button = Start the selected application
Hold Select Button = Change to XFCE

At all times:
Pandora Button = Show the Pandora Menu
Hold Pandora Button = Close the current application/window
FN + Pandora Button = Kill the current application/window
FN + Pandora Button + Power Switch = Emergency Shutdown of Pandora

This to me seems to cover all the bases while still being consistent and as obvious as possible.

The start and select buttons would still be free to have the open programs use them the way they want to of course

 

[Exophase]

I don't think there's much point in having to hold down the Pandora button just to close the app - pressing it should go into the app's menu which should make it possible to quickly exit. Apps without a menu should either have a button for exit (including the WM's x button if it's ran in a window) or an obvious key for it like escape, preferably with a message indicating this. If the app has frozen then a close option won't do anything.

A system menu offers the most versatility and room to grow. In addition to allowing you to kill the current app, it can allow you to background/minimize it, put the Pandora to sleep, reboot the Pandora, change volume, and other things like that (maybe include some externally supplied libnotify sort of status messages). The implementation might be tricky - it'll have to be sure to steal the framebuffer from the current app. I'm no expert on how this stuff is supposed to work, but it seems like it should suspend the app entirely while active (and make sure audio is properly turned off), grab the screen, fade it out, and present the menu on top of it. It'd be a lot like the home button on PSP.

The good thing about all of this, though, is that since it is system wide instead of app mandated it's more suitable to have options in configure files for what should be done (and how long the duration should be before it's done, but I believe that's already a config option).

 

[greendots]

I would like to see the shell menu have all the relevant options of SBsettings on the iphone. It should also work as a task switcher and launcher with the functionality of gnome-do. Thats what I'm planning to code at least with edje and enlightenment dr17 for destop.

 

[Trip]

I don't think there's much point in having to hold down the Pandora button just to close the app - pressing it should go into the app's menu which should make it possible to quickly exit.

That's generally what the start button is used for in apps though; to get to the programs main menu or to bring down the top menu for keyboard navigation.

Start button usually = Main menu or global settings for the software (or pause)
Select button usually = In game menus for changing controls, volume and in-game music control, changing screen resolution etc.

That's how it is on most systems, including game consoles.

 

[Caine]

That's generally what the start button is used for in apps though; to get to the programs main menu or to bring down the top menu for keyboard navigation.

Start button usually = Main menu or global settings for the software
Select button usually = In game menus for changing controls, volume and in-game music control, changing screen resolution etc.

That's how it is on most systems, including game consoles.

I would expect that in emulators Start and Select are handled by the emulated software whereas the Pandora key would be handled by the emulator itself.

 

[Exophase]

That's generally what the start button is used for in apps though; to get to the programs main menu or to bring down the top menu for keyboard navigation.

Start button usually = Main menu or global settings for the software
Select button usually = In game menus for changing controls, volume and in-game music control, changing screen resolution etc.

That's how it is on most systems, including game consoles.

We've already decided that the Pandora button will be used to enter the application's menu, not the start button. The start button is taken by any emulator emulating a platform with a start button, which is something people will be spending a lot of time doing. I've only ever seen start or select buttons on game controllers and gaming handhelds, so your "most systems including game consoles" comment puzzles me. If a game wants to allow the start button to trigger the game's menu in addition to the Pandora button that's their prerogative. For consistency's sake all software should make the Pandora button open a main menu, if there is such a thing.

IMO there's no real reason to discuss controls for minimenu and fxce when being used to launch an application; that can be saved for another thread. BTW, Fn + Pandora is already taken as a last resort system reboot, and it should stay that way in case things go really badly.

 

[Trip]

I would expect that in emulators Start and Select are handled by the emulated software whereas the Pandora key would be handled by the emulator itself.

I was meaning on the systems themselves, not via emulation

When we were doing the standards for the 2X, we learned that we had to treat emulators differently to all the other software. This is because homebrew, ports and every other types of software can all use the same layouts, but the emulators use the Start and Select buttons for in games as you've just pointed out.

There is no reason why holding the Start button in emulators can't open the emulators main menu, whilst holding the Select button can open up other options like the universal Bios menu in Mame or NeoGoe emulators

 

[Exophase]

I was meaning on the systems themselves, not via emulation

When we were doing the standards for the 2X, we learned that we had to treat emulators differently to all the other software. This is because homebrew, ports and every other types of software can all use the same layouts, but the emulators use the Start and Select buttons for in games as you've just pointed out.

There is no reason why holding the Start button in emulators can't open the emulators main menu, whilst holding the Select button can open up other options like the universal Bios menu in Mame or NeoGoe emulators

But GP2X didn't have a "GP2X button." That's the advantage of the Pandora. We can use a common menu button between emulators, games, and apps because we have one that isn't taken. And the last poll indicated that this is what should happen, so it shouldn't be the point of discussion in this thread - if you want to debate this you should probably continue doing so there. The purpose of this thread is to vote on what the Pandora button should do, as a system function, when held (but it looks like the outcome of this vote is going to be pretty unanimous, like the last one)

If an emulator wants to make holding start or select bring up the menu or a special menu then that too is its prerogative. However, I can't understand the logic in doing this - usually a separate menu is not needed, but where it would be it's because you'd want faster access to it than going through the top level of the main menu, and it's such a common and important function that you're willing to allow a less obvious means of accessing it (menu options are always more obvious than app-specific hot keys). Holding anything down is not faster access. For something like MAME or NeoGeo emulation it'd make much more sense to bind a secondary menu to one of the keyboard keys and not to holding down a button or key that's otherwise used for the games.

 

[hedwards]

Clearly the Pandora button should be what everybody expects, as in the menu button. But, it might be nice to be able to configure it to pull up a task manager if you hold it for a bit. It seems like it might be a bit much to do a ctrl-alt-del on the unit, but not having held it I'm not sure if it's as awkward to do as it seems.

As long as it doesn't take too much time or add too much cruft to the code, I don't really see any reason why it couldn't be user configured from some sort of sane default.

 

[Trip]

But GP2X didn't have a "GP2X button." That's the advantage of the Pandora. We can use a common menu button between emulators, games, and apps because we have one that isn't taken. And the last poll indicated that this is what should happen, so it shouldn't be the point of discussion in this thread - if you want to debate this you should probably continue doing so there.

You sure? By reading through the last thread, it struck me more as people wanting the Pandora button to open up a global Pandora menu (ala PSP, PS3 etc.), not a unified menu for all software. A unified menu for all software would would mean that every piece of software written for or ported to the Pandora, would need to be written or modified to supports this standard. Personally I can't see that happening. Not from the response we got from trying to do it on the 2X. We had a hard enough time trying to get all emulators to exit the same way as we couldn't get the 2X devs to add it to the operating system.
This time it's running standard Linux operating system and the system wide/global settings can be changed really easily.

Wouldn't it be easier to make sure that there was a unified way to close running software and to kill running software and just leave it at that?
We should learn from what people said last time IMO.

The only reason I mentioned emulators was in response to Caine btw.

I still think..
Pandora button = Pandora Menu
Hold Pandora button = Close the current program

.. and let the developers do their software's menu in what ever way they want to

 

[Exophase]

You sure? By reading through the last thread, it struck me more as people wanting the Pandora button to open up a global Pandora menu (ala PSP, PS3 etc.), not a unified menu for all software.

I think you didn't read the thread very well then, I think that the poll options were very clear and you can see which option is winning.

A unified menu for all software would would mean that every piece of software written for or ported to the Pandora, would need to be written or modified to supports this standard. Personally I can't see that happening. Not from the response we got from trying to do it on the 2X. We had a hard enough time trying to get all emulators to exit the same way as we couldn't get the 2X devs to add it to the operating system.

Having a universal button was the entire point of Nupfi's original thread:

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?/topic/54273-universal-emulator-menu-button/

Obviously it isn't enforceable. But it can be strongly advised, and with software mainly going through well managed online repositories we can retain contacts and get back to people asking them to change the code. Making a standard button for menu isn't really hard - it's not like on GP2X where the choices are weird like vol up + vol down. The last poll has already shown that most people want the Pandora button to be used for app menus, so I doubt devs will be opposed to accommodating this. The whole point of that poll was that so long as the button can be bound for system functions on being pressed this can't happen. But people still want system functions tied to holding the button for long enough, so this poll is here to discuss what that functionality should be.

On the GP2X we were stuck with GPH's bad decisions because Open2x came too late. Apps couldn't agree on how to exit because there was no standard way that would accommodate all forms of loading, thanks to how GPH botched their shell. Here we won't have those problems, so I really don't see the correlation.

This time it's running standard Linux operating system and the system wide/global settings can be changed really easily

Wouldn't it be easier to make sure that there was a unified way to close running software and to kill running software and just leave it at that?

No, people obviously want a standard button for menus in apps. If the Pandora button becomes available then it'll probably be used for that. Again, why should there be a standard way to close applications? Are we really expecting applications to not offer that? Killing should be possible, but this is exceptional and need not be easy to access. That all aside, people want other options. It's fine that you gave your input on this, but I think you shouldn't bother pushing it any further when it's clear it's not what most other people are interested in.

We should learn from what people said last time IMO.

What did people say last time?

I still think..
Pandora button = Pandora Menu
Hold Pandora button = Close the current program

Yes, we got it ;p Last poll shows you lost the first one, this poll is showing you're losing this one.

 

[Trip]

We should learn from what people said last time IMO.

What did people say last time?

People said that the 2X was supposed to be an open system and that they wanted to write the programs how they wanted to and basically that they didn't want to be told what to do. This wasn't anything to do with the GPH devs, it was from the developers on the forum.

Common opinion was that standards make it easier for the users but not so much for developers. It doesn't matter how many votes you get in a forum poll like this because users tend to vote more than the developers do (developers just ignore it), but users votes don't matter at the end of the day as they aren't the ones that will be implementing the standards.

After a lot of arguing for the 2X standards most developers could see the point in having a global way of starting and exiting programs to make it easier for everyone though.

Don't get me wrong I wouldn't be against having a more unified menu system on the Pandora, I just can't see it happening and would settle for an easy way to open and close software that can be implemented easily within the firmware (operating system).

 

[Natro]

I thought this was more along the lines of an Operating System level menu rather than an application control menu.

 

[Trip]

See

 

[Exophase]

I thought this was more along the lines of an Operating System level menu rather than an application control menu.

This poll is. It's for functionality when pushing and holding the Pandora button for a predefined period of time.

The last poll was about what that Pandora button should do when pressed and not held. The consensus was that it should bring up an application specific menu.

EDIT: God Ginrai, maybe you could edit the poll so it's clear that it means held down for several seconds and not just pressed, I don't think people get it.

 

[Trevsweb]

as suggested two threads ago
i would like the pandora button to...

on press: bring up application menu
on hold: bring up kill menu

if a specific thing could be made where on a press an unified menu could be displayed saying "application menu" and "close program" etc