[Outdated!] PayPal buyers at the German GP2x Shop


Chip

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Origin said:
I, and I'm certain its probably at least 75% of the PayPal orders, am becoming increasingly fustrated by the lack of updates for the situation.
Craig and ED have posted at least half a dozen updates between them to a situation that is less than 24 hours old. Would you like hourly posts saying "Paypal still hasn't given us a straight answer."?

While I also realize its not entirely your fault that PayPal is rejecting the orders as per their rules, you also have to take into account that you did in fact allow the PayPal orders.
Originally, Paypal was not to be a payment option. Only after a week of people demanding Paypal, did they relent. During that week, myself and anybody else who knew better tried to explain exactly why Paypal was a dangerous and unreliable payment vector for businessmen. This exact situation was predicted weeks ago, but Craig decided to give his customers what they wanted, whether it was a good idea or not. Any fault that does not lie with Paypal themselves lies squarely at the feet of those that chose to pay with a service that is well known to arbitrarily seize funds.

So, what I'd like to know is what exactly are you going to do to make the situation better. By offering alternate methods to pay and ignoring the other problems is not adequate in my opinion. If it works out such that we're going to get a full refund of the original amount in the currency we use, and we'll just pay with an alternate method that we would have used had PayPal not been offered as an option, then we have no issue. But that is a pretty big if, and I doubt that will be the case.
If Paypal decides to stiff you on currency conversion, that's nobody's call but theirs. You can't hold somebody else responsible for Paypal's bad business practices.

At any rate, Pandora should be the one answering these questions. If I have to go through the hassle of contacting PayPal to find out the bad news myself, and Pandora isn't going to do anything about it, then I'm sorry, I'll take my business elsewhere.
ED has put in three calls to customer service in less than 24 hours, and they're not providing any answers. What else would you suggest? If you're going to make unreasonable demands about service when everything possible is already being done, please take your business elsewhere.
 
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Kyosys

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Pleng said:
If there has been a currency conversion involved then it will be re-converted at current rates. If you loose out that's tough titties, according to PayPal.

If you suffer at the hands of a currency conversion then you can hardly blame the Pandora team. They offered PayPal as an option because of a load of bitching and whining from a minority in the original forms. Having then catered for these people the inevitable happened and PayPal went on one of their "bugger any new venture" rampages. You can hardly blame the Pandora team for that. And if you don't get your full money back then your gripe should be with PayPal.
As much as I'd like to back up the pandora team, it is partly their fault, because they did violate the paypal ToS

That, of course, doesn't mean that paypal isn't an evil company and that their ridiculous fees aren't ridiculous
 

Origin

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EvilDragon said:
AFAIK they refund the COMPLETE money. At least they TELL they will refund it INCL. ALL THE FEES. Regardless of what currency you did pay. After all, they have a few big accounts and move the money there themselves, so I guess they convert it AFTER the 60 days are over.
After all - they get a lot of fee, they won't lose anything from that conversion.
Thank you. If what you say is correct, then there is no big issue. What do you mean by 60 days are over? Are they holding this for 2 months? I surely hope not.

I'm bringing this from the non-german side of the PayPal issue. We haven't gotten any official word. And no authority is paying attention to the 15 page thread. Theres a flurry of questions and uncertainty, and we haven't gotten any answer.

Right now, we're out $400 or more, and I don't know where and when we'll get it back. I trust in the integrity of the whole thing, so I'm not so worried about the if yet.

Pleng said:
If there has been a currency conversion involved then it will be re-converted at current rates. If you loose out that's tough titties, according to PayPal.
Yes, I am concerned about this. The Canadian dollar lost 10% in the last 3 days.

Pleng said:
If you suffer at the hands of a currency conversion then you can hardly blame the Pandora team.
My gripe is with PayPal. But that doesn't change the fact that it was Pandora that offered in the first place.

Put it this way. Is it PayPal's fault that they set the policy that way? No, you're using their service with the understanding that you will abide by their policies. Is it the consumer's fault? No, we paid the amount we agreed to pay for the pre-order. So, who has to make sure that we get what we paid for, for the amount that we agreed to pay? The business has to.

It shouldn't be my responsibility to chase after PayPal. The policies were there to start with, while I understand no one is actually going to go read them until something goes wrong, the fact of the matter is, something did go wrong. As a business, you can't run away from this and abandon the customer. Why should I have to pay the fees twice because you made a mistake in offering the service.

Kyosys said:
As much as I'd like to back up the pandora team, it is partly their fault, because they did violate the paypal ToS

That, of course, doesn't mean that paypal isn't an evil company and that their ridiculous fees aren't ridiculous
Good, someone understands.

-Origin
 

Eso Rimmer

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Re: PayPal buyers at the German GP2x Shop (shop.gp2x.de) READ!

Hello, I'm one of those paypal-ers too. Mine order is #3033.

EvilDragon said:
A) PayPal is nice and the orders stay like they are at the moment

If A) happens, nothing will happen, you will get your order as planned.

I would prefer trying to persuade paypal to accept and not block our payments (on your account). Is there any way how can we help? Maybe stupid idea, but mabe we (cca 100 people) should send some kind of email to paypal saying we are perfectly consentient with the payment and we don't want any cancellation at all.
 

Kyosys

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Eso Rimmer said:
Hello, I'm one of those paypal-ers too. Mine order is #3033.

EvilDragon said:
A) PayPal is nice and the orders stay like they are at the moment

If A) happens, nothing will happen, you will get your order as planned.

I would prefer trying to persuade paypal to accept and not block our payments (on your account). Is there any way how can we help? Maybe stupid idea, but mabe we (cca 100 people) should send some kind of email to paypal saying we are perfectly consentient with the payment and we don't want any cancellation at all.
It's against the paypal ToS, and they won't make an exception.
 

bob

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Eso Rimmer said:
Hello, I'm one of those paypal-ers too. Mine order is #3033.
I would prefer trying to persuade paypal to accept and not block our payments (on your account). Is there any way how can we help? Maybe stupid idea, but mabe we (cca 100 people) should send some kind of email to paypal saying we are perfectly consentient with the payment and we don't want any cancellation at all.

Personally I wouldn't waste time with Paypal anymore. Just get your money back and use another method.
Before this mess I had the impression Paypal was a big player in online payment. When only 100 of 4000 people are using this method, considering the risks involved, then it might indeed be better not to be using it at all.

Would have been different if a majority of people had placed their order with paypal. Luckily that is not the case.
 

Origin

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Kyosys said:
It's against the paypal ToS, and they won't make an exception.
PayPal Prohibited Transactions said:
You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell goods with delivery dates delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, or to sell securities, business opportunities, franchises or multi-level marketing or goods with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment.
Can't we have bought a piece of paper or coupon that is worth/can be redeemed for 1 pandora unit or something?

Gift certificates, store credit, Wii points, whatever, they all work the same way.

Unless they're claiming the whole thing is fraud.

-Origin
 

Eso Rimmer

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Re: PayPal buyers at the German GP2x Shop (shop.gp2x.de) READ!

bob:
Okay, but when i look at gp2x.de the only payment method is "Money Order". And that's not the same like online "Credit Card" payment, isn't it? I'm from Czech republic which is in EU, but I think there is some fee around 10€ for bank transfer to foreign country.
 

Chip

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Re: PayPal buyers at the German GP2x Shop (shop.gp2x.de) READ!

Origin said:
Is it the consumer's fault? No, we paid the amount we agreed to pay for the pre-order. So, who has to make sure that we get what we paid for, for the amount that we agreed to pay? The business has to.
A little perspective:

I give my buddy $10 and ask him to run down to the store and pick up a six pack of Blue Moon. My buddy decides that I drink too much and pockets the money for a while "for my own good". You're suggesting that the store is responsible for the fact that I didn't get my beer.

The Pandora distributors don't have your money, and they never did. Paypal deducted the money from your account and then decided to hold on to it "for your own good". Place the blame where it belongs.

There is no confirmation one way or the other that the 20-day preorder limit has anything to do with the distributors' accounts being locked. In fact, I can almost guarantee that Paypal does not take anything like that close an interest in its transactions. Far more likely is the possibility that some algorithm wigged out because a couple accounts that rarely see many deposits suddenly received a lot, and mostly from other countries. Paypal has a long and sordid history of this behavior, even when the sellers are completely within the TOS.
 

bob

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Eso Rimmer said:
bob:
Okay, but when i look at gp2x.de the only payment method is "Money Order". And that's not the same like online "Credit Card" payment, isn't it? I'm from Czech republic which is in EU, but I think there is some fee around 10€ for bank transfer to foreign country.

Nope, electronic money transfer in EU is free of charge.
 

Origin

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Chip said:
The Pandora distributors don't have your money, and they never did. Paypal deducted the money from your account and then decided to hold on to it "for your own good". Place the blame where it belongs.
The problem with your perspective lies in the fact that the Pandora distributors had our money at one point. Even ED said he had transferred most of it to his bank account. We exchanged money for a service, and now, the service has been taken away, and we're not certain we'll get the exact amount we paid for it back.

Chip said:
There is no confirmation one way or the other that the 20-day preorder limit has anything to do with the distributors' accounts being locked. In fact, I can almost guarantee that Paypal does not take anything like that close an interest in its transactions. Far more likely is the possibility that some algorithm wigged out because a couple accounts that rarely see many deposits suddenly received a lot, and mostly from other countries. Paypal has a long and sordid history of this behavior, even when the sellers are completely within the TOS.
The problem with my solution is that there is no security for the customer. You can easily change the price on the Pandora and say your credit is worth half of what its worth when I bought it. The responsibility no longer lies in PayPal's hands, as I can't revoke my payment, as I got what I paid for. But, if we buy a store credit or store points or whatever, we're expecting that the integrity of the organization we bought it from won't do that to us.

Say I had 1,000 Wii points banked from a gift card last christmas. If Nintendo decided to change the price of downloading Ocarina of Time to play on the Wii to from 1,000 to 2,000 Wii points, then we have no right to demand that our 1,000 points are worth a product thats priced at 2,000 points now.

At any rate, you're probably right. Its the same way how credit cards react to a sudden increase in spending. They'll suspend the card and give you a new one. That doesn't mean you can't go and buy a car with your new card. But, I agree, its best not to try to beat the system, it'll probably bite back even harder.

-Origin
 

Lafazar

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Re: PayPal buyers at the German GP2x Shop (shop.gp2x.de) READ!

Origin said:
Pleng said:
If there has been a currency conversion involved then it will be re-converted at current rates. If you loose out that's tough titties, according to PayPal.
Yes, I am concerned about this. The Canadian dollar lost 10% in the last 3 days.
Perhaps this wil calm you: I can confirm, that the refund is COMPLETE WITH ALL FEES AND THERE ARE NO CURRENCY CONVERSION LOSSES. My PayPal account is in US$, EvilDragon's is in €. I immediately got all my money back after ED cancelled the transaction.

Edit:
21mg3rc.jpg
 

Kyosys

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Chip said:
Origin said:
Is it the consumer's fault? No, we paid the amount we agreed to pay for the pre-order. So, who has to make sure that we get what we paid for, for the amount that we agreed to pay? The business has to.
A little perspective:

I give my buddy $10 and ask him to run down to the store and pick up a six pack of Blue Moon. My buddy decides that I drink too much and pockets the money for a while "for my own good". You're suggesting that the store is responsible for the fact that I didn't get my beer.

The Pandora distributors don't have your money, and they never did. Paypal deducted the money from your account and then decided to hold on to it "for your own good". Place the blame where it belongs.

There is no confirmation one way or the other that the 20-day preorder limit has anything to do with the distributors' accounts being locked. In fact, I can almost guarantee that Paypal does not take anything like that close an interest in its transactions. Far more likely is the possibility that some algorithm wigged out because a couple accounts that rarely see many deposits suddenly received a lot, and mostly from other countries. Paypal has a long and sordid history of this behavior, even when the sellers are completely within the TOS.
Truth. Did you read about the donation thing, where the guy was trying to give out free t-shirts to all people donating some money by sending it to his paypal so he could donate it?

Paypal froze the account and even refused to donate the money from his account. Just return it.
 

Origin

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Lafazar said:
Perhaps this wil calm you: I can confirm, that the refund is COMPLETE WITH ALL FEES AND THERE ARE NO CURRENCY CONVERSION LOSSES. My PayPal account is in US$, EvilDragon's is in €. I immediately got all my money back after ED cancelled the transaction.
Thanks Lafazar. Hopefully that is the case. Did the funds remain in your PayPal account, or did they transfer it back to your bank? As much as I'd rather not have another $400 sitting in my PayPal account, I can live with that if its not at a loss.

PayPal Account Activity said:
Date Type To/From Name/Email Status Details Action Amount
Oct. 7, 2008 Temporary Hold By PayPal Placed Details -$384.78 CAD
Oct. 7, 2008 Currency Conversion (credit) To Canadian Dollar From British Pound Completed Details $384.78 CAD
Oct. 7, 2008 Currency Conversion (debit) From British Pound To Canadian Dollar Completed Details -£197.77 GBP
Sep. 30, 2008 Payment To Jacquelyn Jones Refunded Details -£197.77 GBP
Sep. 30, 2008 Currency Conversion (credit) To British Pound From Canadian Dollar Completed Details £197.77 GBP
Sep. 30, 2008 Currency Conversion (debit) From Canadian Dollar To British Pound Completed Details -$384.79 CAD
Sep. 30, 2008 Transfer From Bank Account Completed Details $384.79 CAD
Looks like I lost a cent. I'm pretty certain they used the rate from last week though, its not even close to what it was today. Probably a rounding error as the rate is only calculated with 5 digits of accuracy.

-Origin
 

Lafazar

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Origin said:
Did the funds remain in your PayPal account, or did they transfer it back to your bank?
It's back in my PayPal account. I use PayPal only for payments, so I have never transferred PayPal money to my bank account before. I added a screenshot of my account history to my previous post.
 

Origin

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Lafazar said:
Origin said:
Did the funds remain in your PayPal account, or did they transfer it back to your bank?
It's back in my PayPal account. I use PayPal only for payments, so I have never transferred PayPal money to my bank account before. I added a screenshot of my account history to my previous post.
I'm pretty sure mine will end up in my account as well, and not back to my bank, but like I said, I can live with that.

-Origin
 

Eso Rimmer

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Re: PayPal buyers at the German GP2x Shop (shop.gp2x.de) READ!

bob said:
Eso Rimmer said:
bob:
Okay, but when i look at gp2x.de the only payment method is "Money Order". And that's not the same like online "Credit Card" payment, isn't it? I'm from Czech republic which is in EU, but I think there is some fee around 10€ for bank transfer to foreign country.

Nope, electronic money transfer in EU is free of charge.


I think you are wrong. CZ is in EU, but I've done some searching on google and pages of my bank and there still seems to be a 195 CZK (cca 8€) fee for any payment up to 50000€ from CZ to any country within the EU.

Here is the evidence - english version of pricelist of my bank. Look at the page 9, point 2.2.3.1. SEPA EuroPayment. http://www.sazebnik-kb.cz/file/cms/en/p ... f?20081001
 

fanoush

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Re: PayPal buyers at the German GP2x Shop (shop.gp2x.de) READ!

bob said:
Eso Rimmer said:
bob:
Okay, but when i look at gp2x.de the only payment method is "Money Order". And that's not the same like online "Credit Card" payment, isn't it? I'm from Czech republic which is in EU, but I think there is some fee around 10€ for bank transfer to foreign country.

Nope, electronic money transfer in EU is free of charge.
Nope, you are wrong. We definitely have different charges for international money orders in CZ. In my bank this fee is 1% of the sum with minimal fee being 300CZK~=12EUR.

I think the 'excuse' our banks use is that such EU law/directive is only valid if your bank account is kept in EUR (not CZK) or something like that. Having such EUR account is more costly and completely impractical for domestic money transfers. Hopefully this will change once we replace CZK with EUR as our currency (will take few years).
 

EvilDragon

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Well, and while I offer shipment to other countries, it was listed on the official site for orders within Germany (which is my primary area).
Offering credit cards is too expensive for me, as I don't have that many orders from outside Germany... and Germans usually pay via Bank transfer.
 

Chip

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Re: PayPal buyers at the German GP2x Shop (shop.gp2x.de) READ!

Origin said:
The problem with your perspective lies in the fact that the Pandora distributors had our money at one point. Even ED said he had transferred most of it to his bank account. We exchanged money for a service, and now, the service has been taken away, and we're not certain we'll get the exact amount we paid for it back.
If that were the case, you wouldn't be in this predicament. If the Pandora distributors were able to retrieve the funds from Paypal, the deal would be done and there would be no problem. If ED managed to transfer the money from Paypal to his bank account before the "fraud protection" kicked in, you can be sure Paypal will be reversing the transaction soon (if they haven't already).
 
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