Open Snes/nes/gb

[WhizzBang]

You IPSPA's keep comparing apples to oranges...

You're in a talkative mood today, Akuma. What does 'IPSPA' stand for? I am pretty backward when it comes to internet abreviations. By the way, oranges are much better than apples...

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

You IPSPA's keep comparing apples to oranges...

You're in a talkative mood today, Akuma. What does 'IPSPA' stand for? I am pretty backward when it comes to internet abreviations. By the way, oranges are much better than apples...

IPSPA is my own abbreivation, its "Ignorant PSP Advocates" it describes all of these people who post a 5 word sentace describing why they are certain PSP will be the hombrewn system of the future. It describes those who give the lamest excuse about why they think it will be (Like "Since a company in asia makes unlicenced GBA carts, its pretty obvious therefore that the UMD will be duplicated allowing everyone to somehow magically play hombrewn games") just stupid crap like that. They are IPSPA's

As I said, I would love nothing more then to have the PSP play hombrewn games, imagine the possiblities...but I dont let hope blindfold me to the cold hard facts.

 

[Enslaved]

God do we ever go off topic

 

[abigsmurf]

Not really, if you use common sense you can accuratly predict the results.

These IPSPAs love to spout that they PSP will be able to run hombrewn works "somehow", they really dont give any ideas or possiblities, they just love to argue.

There are only four possiblities that anyone has "come up with" that would allow the PSP to play homebrewn games. There isnt much else you can do with a handheld besides these four obvious options, here they are, and the realistic answer as to why they are not viable.

Possibility One: Someone creates a UMD writer with blank UMD media, cracks the encryption and copy protection (hardware mod probably), and sells these on a commercial scale.
Realistically: The cost to produce these, and the writers, and to purchase them, and the mod, etc... would be so high and cost so much (assuming that its possible) that for the common user to "burn and play" homebrewn games on their PSP, it would cost over $5,000. (the writers for sony's new format besides the UMD is $5000 alone, not to mention the price of the media) And this is assuming that sony doesnt come down hard on someone who illegally duplicated their patented proprietary media format and is selling it. (yeah like they would let THAT go) So can we safely remove this from the likely canidates? I think so.

Possiblity Two: Use the USB or EXT port to hook your PSP up to your PC and stream the "games" in realtime through the port.
Realistically: First, someone would have to make an unofficial UMD that allows you to stream the data, or, hope that someday they release a game which has an expliot that will let you do this (See GC & PSO for this example). Even if you managed that, somehow, still who wants a portable system that is not portable? who wants to play a SNES emulator on a handheld thats hooked upto your PC? When you can play the SNES emulator for free ON YOUR PC! So, can we safely remove this from the "worthy" canidates? Most assuredly.

Possiblity Three: Someone creates a unofficial UMD that boots games directly from the MemoryStick.
Realisitically To do this, again, someone would have to duplicate, and create a writer for, this patented, proprietary media format and sell it commercially, (see Possibility one) not to mention they would have to have cracked the bootup sequence or created a hardware modification. So again we are back to square one. UMD is a proprietary media format with no available writers/readers, enclosed in a custom case, using the most advanced encryption todate. Another removeal of possiblities? Looks like it.

Possiblity Four: Sony officially makes their PSP support running unofficial, unliceneced games via the MemStick.
Realistically: This is the least likely of the four to happen. First, sony makes _ALL_ of their money on licencing fees, to give developers (both commercial and hombrewn) the ability to bypass sony and make non licenced games for their system is absurd. Not to mention that sonys use of a new proprietary media format rather than use an existing format (mini-dvd etc...) is a clear indication that they do NOT want anyone messing with their system unoffically. So the argument that sony will make the PSP "officially" boot games from the Memstick is about as likely to happen as Nintendo officially supporting GBA emulators. And finially, this sound like its gonna happen? Doubt it.

So what does that leave us? Commercial Games.

(and even if someone managed to jump through all of those hoops, reproduce the UMD, create a writer for it, bypass the encryption and hardware protections, etc..., sony would simply run them out of bussiness via legal fees)

All of this IPSPA's who blindly say "oh sure it will have it!" should consider this, as it sounds like most of them just ignore the facts and data and just base their assumtions on this weak hope that this "god like" portable will be able to do homebrewn games as well.

Please dont reply with autonomous replies like "Im sure there will be a way" or "just wait and see" because those, unlike my post, are not backed or based on any kind of relative facts. Those are hopes, and very thin ones at that.

Creating UMD's is not as simple as creating a FlashCart. A FlashCart is simple, existing technology that has well documented specs and can easily, and cheaply be reproduced on a large scale. The UMD is a custom, patented, proprietary media format with no available blank media or writers. And the rest of the systems that have "found ways" do so by hardware mods and widely available cheap open media formats.
If you want to look at another system that has a proprietary media format similar to UMD, look no further then the GC, which, the only "way" they found, was to load up Phatansy Star Online while your PC is hooked up to your GC via a network cable and you stream the games from your harddrive to the GC while playing. Although thats not THAT bad of a method for a console, it makes a portable system, unportable, defeating the purpose of having it really.

EDIT: Just so you dont think I am anti-PSP in anyway, I think the PSP will be the biggest, best, most worthy handheld for commercial games the world has seen. Leaving GB/GBC/GBA/DS behind in their dust. I am a big sony fan! But I am also a realist.

EDIT 2: ReFormated/Cleaned up the post, made it easier to read.

Possibility five:

you open up the case and flash the bios to make it look for code on the stick

Possibility six:

you open up the case and install a modchip that can run code from the stick

Although I personally think no one would consider a method like that. It's not as if there's examples of consoles being modded in that way....

There's plenty of software that interfaces with memory sticks (camera software etc.) that could be reverse engineered to get enough info to store files in a way that you could program the bios or modchip to read.

why would someone go to the effort to make a modchip that could do this? Because current PS2 modchips are between $30-$60 and it's safe to say they'd get around the same for a psp chip

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

Its not as easy as that abigsmurf. You cant simply open on the system and flash the bios and load games from the memstick. Life isnt that easy. And modchips simply bypass region protection, again they have nothing to do with code execution. Now you are just making up reasons that have no basis in any reality.

God do we ever go off topic

All topics about alternative hardware, of any sort, always end up with IPSPA's spouting off crap, so I, in defense of logic, have to smash their dreams

 

[abigsmurf]

what exactly is there to stop a modchip to alter the bios to say instead of searching the UMD for the executable of a game (using built in CD handling) to first check the memory stick (using the hardware memory access function which may or may not be part of the bios itself) for a particular executable which may just be a short program in the ram that acts as a GUI for loading programs into the ram (I believe it has 24megs which would be enough for quite most emus). As long as all the code is written to treat the memory stick as the disc drive you wouldn't get access problems.

It may be an extremely complicated procedure to program a replacement for the bios to perform those functions but like I said, money is a great motivator.

People would have never thought you could've made emulators to run on the PS1 before it was launched and if you had suggested to anyone that you'd be able to put Linux on MS's console they'd have thought you were just joking. Why is it so hard to believe people would do the same to the PSP?

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

Because for the simple fact that its a custom proprietary media format.

PS1 does not, PS2 does not, XBox, does not, you are comparing apples to oranges. All of those systems can easily load data off of dvd and standard cds, widely available. the PSP cannot. Can you understand this? Why do people constantly ignore this MAJOR FACTOR?!

And a hardware mod to the extent you are talking about would cost so much money and probably take a couple years worth of research (we are not talking about just a region bypass here) not to mention it would probably destroy the ability to load games from the UMD. Top that off with the big black boot that sony will shove up the ass of anyone atempting any such thing, and you have a VERY VERY VERY limited possiblity.

The modchips are legally allowed ONLY because they bypass region protections which is not against the law. As a side effect of region bypassing, hombrewn games / copied games can run. A hardware mod like you are talking about would have to be written specficially to modify the system to do such a thing, which sony would and could bash them to ity bity peices in court. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. That is probably the least likely of all possibilities.

For alot less work, and alot less money, you could simply make your own damn handheld and market it!

 

[abigsmurf]

Because for the simple fact that its a custom proprietary media format.

PS1 does not, PS2 does not, XBox, does not, you are comparing apples to oranges. All of those systems can easily load data off of dvd and standard cds, widely available. the PSP cannot. Can you understand this? Why do people constantly ignore this MAJOR FACTOR?!

And a hardware mod to the extent you are talking about would cost so much money and probably take a couple years worth of research (we are not talking about just a region bypass here) not to mention it would probably destroy the ability to load games from the UMD. Top that off with the big black boot that sony will shove up the ass of anyone atempting any such thing, and you have a VERY VERY VERY limited possiblity.

The modchips are legally allowed ONLY because they bypass region protections which is not against the law. As a side effect of region bypassing, hombrewn games / copied games can run. A hardware mod like you are talking about would have to be written specficially to modify the system to do such a thing, which sony would and could bash them to ity bity peices in court. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. That is probably the least likely of all possibilities.

For alot less work, and alot less money, you could simply make your own damn handheld and market it!

I'M NOT SAYING RUN IT OFF OF THE UMD

memory sticks go up to 512mb, can be read to and written from a PC and must have a reasonable access speed as Sony intend to allow you to play DRM'ed AAC files off of it and like I said, the PSP has enough memory to load an emulator and a rom into the ram. It has more ram than a standard GP32 but huge amounts more power

erm... what exactly makes you think modchips and related articles are legal? Forget me if I'm wrong but didn't lik Sang go down for a number of months due to being sued by nintendo and sony and have since stopped stocking modding solutions. The modchip goes strongly against the US DMCA (any device used to circumvent protection measures in software or hardware is illegal under the act) and when this EU equilivant goes through they'll be equally illegal here. The reason they exist is because they are manufactured outside the Berne convention and there's ziltch sony and co can do to get around it

Just try posting an auction for a ps2 modchip on ebay and see how many seconds it takes to get taken down

 

[Enslaved]

For alot less work, and alot less money, you could simply make your own damn handheld and market it!

Good point! BTW, does anyone have any news on the Linux port since were on the subject of reverse engineering?

 

[Prophet]

Looong post warning... Typed this last night actually but gp32x was down, so I'm posting it now.

DaveC,

I may be "all over the place" (a phrase you attempt to use somehow to disqualify me, shame on you for that, it's lame) but I am also a very big fan of portable systems and therefore yes, I do own and have owned MANY. This gives me a very good vantage point to compare them first hand. And somehow this varied background somehow makes my thoughts less valid? As for the A620 - I have always owned Pocket PC's - I currently have 3 altogether, and I have been extremely curious about the A620 for a long time after reading how fast it is etc. Also note: the only portables I ever sold off was my GameGear long ago (after getting a Nomad I hated the GG, heh), and the GP32 (Zodiac replaced it). I still have every other portable I ever bought from 1989 onwards - despite what you think I'm not really "all over the place" - it's more like Iike I'm just "many places."

As for me "boasting" that A620 was so great and "telling people to get a PPC" etc. - that isn't accurate. And it's all documented on the boards. What I said was that "it does what I want," and that yes it was very fast with emulation. And it is. But it can't touch the Zodiac for sheer playability - controls and layout make a HUGE difference. Until I had the chance to use the A620 for a few weeks, I really couldn't know that for sure. I'm not a fanboy - I like to try all sorts of systems and then make a decision about which one I like best. That can change year to year. Last year GP32 was certainly my favorite. Right now, Zodiac is #1 to me.

I sold the GP32 because I really didn't think I'd use it after I got into the Zodiac. There just wasn't enough good commercial stuff for GP32 to warrant keeping it, it was mainly an emulation system IMO, so if the Zodiac could do the emus, the GP32 wouldn't serve that much use for me. And now that emus and games are starting to happen on the Zodiac, I feel I did the right thing. Plus there are many very good Palm games, Astraware etc. have some great stuff. When I had my GP32 I carried around my Pocket PC for PDA stuff and the GP32 for games, emus & movies. I tended to use my PPC for MP3's actually, it sounded better IMO. The point is - the Zodiac does all those things very well, and that's why it's my current system of choice. I _only_ carry my Zodiac with me now. It does games, emus, PDA, movies and music all very well (in general). Considering it's only been out for 6 months, it's off to very decent start. Remember, GP32 took a while to really get the emus and homebrew pumping out. There's ALWAYS a learning curve for devs to figure how to use a new system to its potential. Just look at what YoyoFr has done already in a matter of weeks!

Also, regarding my leaving due to the analog issue - and this is documented on the message boards if you search around - I always said I'd be back when they addressed the problem in a serious and satisfactory way. It was my way of trying to help Tapwave realize what a huge problem it was. Apparently they got the message, and so I'm back.

I also don't think you're being fair to the quality of the screen with filtering. But that is subjective. Basically it looks like MAME or ZSNES etc. on a PC with bilinear filtering turned on - some people love it, some don't. I like it. I think it looks awesome on the Zodiac display, and makes emulated console games look exactly as they should - smooth like a television image. To me it's perfect, and it totally removes any "rippling" effects during scrolling etc. But you know all that, you've seen it. I far prefer the filtered display over the blocky per-pixel type of display you get without filtering - that goes for GP32, Zodiac, GBA etc. The original games aren't supposed to look like that - they were designed to look best on a televsion screen, i.e. smooth with rounded pixels, not squared off pixels. Just compare character sprites in any NES game when filtered and unfiltered. Unfiltered they look like blocky little graph paper plottings, but with the filter they looks like smooth hand drawings. The same way they look on using a real console on a real TV. And that's why I like it so much - it makes the classic emus look like the "real thing."

Anyway - to GP32 fans, you have a great system and I remain very respectful of it, and always will, and of the incredible dev work so many people have done with it. But for ME, in MY PERSONAL OPINION, the Zodiac is the better choice. Keep in mind I have also always been into PDA's, so the Zodiac has dual appeal for me. No device suits everyone. There are a lot of people, and I mean a LOT, who think GP32 and Zodiac users are both insane and that the GBA is where it's at. Hey - maybe they're right. j/k

And it's great to hear that YoyoFr hasn't left the GP32. More fun for everyone. The GP32 and Zodiac actually have a lot in common, so there will probably be continued dev crossover between the two communities. That is NOT a bad thing. As long as we're all respectful of each other's choices.

REGARDING THE ZODIAC BATTERY: You all have a very good point. A removable, user replaceable battery is certainly better when possible. Oddly tho, many PDA's have non-removable batteries - it's very common (my A620, same thing). I think I know whay Tapwave (and other PDA's) chose to do it this way (cost, design, system size increase etc.) but hopefully the next Tapwave device (which will likely come in 2005 and be backwards compatible, PDA's get updated more often than game systems) can feature a removable battery. I'll mention it to Byron Connell in fact. Otherwise the battery is really excellent in terms of performance (best of any PDA I ever used), and I have never seen my Zodiac only get 2 hours as someone suggested, no matter what I did on it. Overall I'd say I get 4 - 6 hours average, but it's hard to be sure because like I said earlier, I have never run it down lower than maybe 20 - 30% in one day. Just stick it on the cradle overnight. And BTW, someone else said something about losing your data etc. - that doesn't happen easily with Palm OS. Not at all - Palm OS does a backup every hotsync. Plus you can use progs like Backup Buddy to do a RAM backup to an SD card. It's really not an issue at all. And you can always choose to keep important stuff on SD if you're still concerned - it's all very easy to configure.

And now, I really need to stop typing and go to bed.

-P- www.ZodiacGamer.com

 

[kraahl]

There are chip for the PS2 that allows booting appliactions from the memory card, I am sure such a chip could be created for the PSP.
But chipping a handheld would probably be hard.

Do you deny the existance of the DMS3?

Oh, and to whoever said it... making mod-chips illegal is stupid, there is no way to justify that.
They have legal uses and are legal in most of the world.

 

[DaveC]

Looong post warning... Typed this last night actually but gp32x was down, so I'm posting it now.

DaveC,

I may be "all over the place" (a phrase you attempt to use somehow to disqualify me, shame on you for that, it's lame) but I am also a very big fan of portable systems and therefore yes, I do own and have owned MANY. This gives me a very good vantage point to compare them first hand. And somehow this varied background somehow makes my thoughts less valid? As for the A620 - I have always owned Pocket PC's - I currently have 3 altogether, and I have been extremely curious about the A620 for a long time after reading how fast it is etc. Also note: the only portables I ever sold off was my GameGear long ago (after getting a Nomad I hated the GG, heh), and the GP32 (Zodiac replaced it). I still have every other portable I ever bought from 1989 onwards - despite what you think I'm not really "all over the place" - it's more like Iike I'm just "many places."

As for me "boasting" that A620 was so great and "telling people to get a PPC" etc. - that isn't accurate. And it's all documented on the boards. What I said was that "it does what I want," and that yes it was very fast with emulation. And it is. But it can't touch the Zodiac for sheer playability - controls and layout make a HUGE difference. Until I had the chance to use the A620 for a few weeks, I really couldn't know that for sure. I'm not a fanboy - I like to try all sorts of systems and then make a decision about which one I like best. That can change year to year. Last year GP32 was certainly my favorite. Right now, Zodiac is #1 to me.

I sold the GP32 because I really didn't think I'd use it after I got into the Zodiac. There just wasn't enough good commercial stuff for GP32 to warrant keeping it, it was mainly an emulation system IMO, so if the Zodiac could do the emus, the GP32 wouldn't serve that much use for me. And now that emus and games are starting to happen on the Zodiac, I feel I did the right thing. Plus there are many very good Palm games, Astraware etc. have some great stuff. When I had my GP32 I carried around my Pocket PC for PDA stuff and the GP32 for games, emus & movies. I tended to use my PPC for MP3's actually, it sounded better IMO. The point is - the Zodiac does all those things very well, and that's why it's my current system of choice. I _only_ carry my Zodiac with me now. It does games, emus, PDA, movies and music all very well (in general). Considering it's only been out for 6 months, it's off to very decent start. Remember, GP32 took a while to really get the emus and homebrew pumping out. There's ALWAYS a learning curve for devs to figure how to use a new system to its potential. Just look at what YoyoFr has done already in a matter of weeks!

Also, regarding my leaving due to the analog issue - and this is documented on the message boards if you search around - I always said I'd be back when they addressed the problem in a serious and satisfactory way. It was my way of trying to help Tapwave realize what a huge problem it was. Apparently they got the message, and so I'm back.

I also don't think you're being fair to the quality of the screen with filtering. But that is subjective. Basically it looks like MAME or ZSNES etc. on a PC with bilinear filtering turned on - some people love it, some don't. I like it. I think it looks awesome on the Zodiac display, and makes emulated console games look exactly as they should - smooth like a television image. To me it's perfect, and it totally removes any "rippling" effects during scrolling etc. But you know all that, you've seen it. I far prefer the filtered display over the blocky per-pixel type of display you get without filtering - that goes for GP32, Zodiac, GBA etc. The original games aren't supposed to look like that - they were designed to look best on a televsion screen, i.e. smooth with rounded pixels, not squared off pixels. Just compare character sprites in any NES game when filtered and unfiltered. Unfiltered they look like blocky little graph paper plottings, but with the filter they looks like smooth hand drawings. The same way they look on using a real console on a real TV. And that's why I like it so much - it makes the classic emus look like the "real thing."

Anyway - to GP32 fans, you have a great system and I remain very respectful of it, and always will, and of the incredible dev work so many people have done with it. But for ME, in MY PERSONAL OPINION, the Zodiac is the better choice. Keep in mind I have also always been into PDA's, so the Zodiac has dual appeal for me. No device suits everyone. There are a lot of people, and I mean a LOT, who think GP32 and Zodiac users are both insane and that the GBA is where it's at. Hey - maybe they're right. j/k

And it's great to hear that YoyoFr hasn't left the GP32. More fun for everyone. The GP32 and Zodiac actually have a lot in common, so there will probably be continued dev crossover between the two communities. That is NOT a bad thing. As long as we're all respectful of each other's choices.

REGARDING THE ZODIAC BATTERY: You all have a very good point. A removable, user replaceable battery is certainly better when possible. Oddly tho, many PDA's have non-removable batteries - it's very common (my A620, same thing). I think I know whay Tapwave (and other PDA's) chose to do it this way (cost, design, system size increase etc.) but hopefully the next Tapwave device (which will likely come in 2005 and be backwards compatible, PDA's get updated more often than game systems) can feature a removable battery. I'll mention it to Byron Connell in fact. Otherwise the battery is really excellent in terms of performance (best of any PDA I ever used), and I have never seen my Zodiac only get 2 hours as someone suggested, no matter what I did on it. Overall I'd say I get 4 - 6 hours average, but it's hard to be sure because like I said earlier, I have never run it down lower than maybe 20 - 30% in one day. Just stick it on the cradle overnight. And BTW, someone else said something about losing your data etc. - that doesn't happen easily with Palm OS. Not at all - Palm OS does a backup every hotsync. Plus you can use progs like Backup Buddy to do a RAM backup to an SD card. It's really not an issue at all. And you can always choose to keep important stuff on SD if you're still concerned - it's all very easy to configure.

And now, I really need to stop typing and go to bed.

-P- www.ZodiacGamer.com

Maybe your intentions were different but I just think your first post was in really poor taste. I mean talk about "shame on you for that, it's lame". So what was the point? Should I go to a PS2 board and brag about how much better the graphics etc are on my Xbox? A person that does that is known as a troll. I mean was it really a good idea to come to a GP32 board just to tell everyone how great you think the Zodiac is? GP32 users aren't stupid and don't live in a vacuum. I would bet everyone here knows about the Zodiac and what it does (Google is real easy to use you know).

The Zodiac works for you fine that is great. As you probably know I HAVE a Zodiac2 with a 512 mb SD card. I like it, but I also like the GP32 too. I like the Z better for some things, and I like the GP32 better for other reasons. These things are just toyz.

The screen thing is totally subjective. I could say why I like it sharp at 1:1 you could argue why you like soft filtered, there are good reasons for both. I was in part replying to the other post when the guy said that the screen SIZE was an advantage. It wasn't the size it was the resolution that better matches.

And as far as me being inaccurate about you telling everyone to buy something, well you didn't exactly come out and say "hey everyone, buy an Asus PPC". but that was the gist. Just like the gist of your recent GP32X post in a nutshell was "Get a Zodiac it is so much better than a GP32", even though you didn't actually say those exact words.

The battery issue sucks, plain and simple. There is no spin you can put on that. I don't care how many other devices do it that way or why they did it, I still don't like it.

And I hope this doesn't turn into another Zodiac vs GP32 flame war thread

 

[Prophet]

DaveC,

I didn't come to this site to "brag about Zodiac," I came to a THREAD ABOUT THE ZODIAC on this site, to talk about the Zodiac. Just as GP32 users would be welcome to talk about GP32 in a thread ABOUT THE GP32 at ZodiacGamer if someone started one. I think you can comprehend that if you try - you are the only person here who seems to want to fight anyway. You spin EVERYTHING into a battle. Maybe you just enjoy fighting, but that's YOUR issue.

"And I hope this doesn't turn into another Zodiac vs GP32 flame war thread"

Freudian slip of what you seem to actually WANT. But you're not getting it.

You also seem to have a vendetta with me personally and the Zodiac. Again, that is YOUR issue. I've given you enough time in my last post, now it's over.

Peace out to the less combative GP32 fans here, and to those who I had some nice private messages with the last 2 days here. You guys make me miss my GP32 almost as much as "All For Princess" (great game).