Open Schematics Of The Hardware

[elafargue]

Hi all,

I spent some time looking this up on the various FAQs, forums and blogs but could not come up with a proper answer. OpenPandora is often tagged as an "Open Source gaming platform", so I was wondering if there is a place where the various source files for the Pandora's electronic schematics, pcbs and other low level hardware & software information are posted beyond the spec sheets on the wiki ? Any plans to post them at any point in the future?

Thanks,

Ed

 

[Bosbeetle]

no the hardware is not fully open source, because they (craig&co) dont want any cheap imitation device being made

 

[hessiess]

Hi all,

I spent some time looking this up on the various FAQs, forums and blogs but could not come up with a proper answer. OpenPandora is often tagged as an "Open Source gaming platform", so I was wondering if there is a place where the various source files for the Pandora's electronic schematics, pcbs and other low level hardware & software information are posted beyond the spec sheets on the wiki ? Any plans to post them at any point in the future?

Thanks,

Ed

A lot of this is under NDA, so isn't available currently. A lot of the drivers look like they are going to be propiaterry binary blobs, as for other hardware: anybody's guess .

 

[lulzfish]

That's kind of a misnomer, it's a closed-source device running mostly open-source software, most notably the Linux kernel.

 

[hessiess]

That's kind of a misnomer, it's a closed-source device running mostly open-source software, most notably the Linux kernel.

From my understanding the GP2X wasn't exactly ``open hardware' eather.

 

[craigix]

While we have been open with the parts used, and where possible used hardware with open drivers, we will never reveal the schematics or we would just have cheap Chinese Pandora clones showing up which most certainly isn't part of the plan.

We are however happy to sell the bare boards or even do modifications for bulk customers.

 

[notaz]

A lot of the drivers look like they are going to be propiaterry binary blobs

What makes you think so? Only 3D (SGX) is going to use blob, everything else (except firmware running inside wifi chip) is open and already in public repositories.

 

[elafargue]

While we have been open with the parts used, and where possible used hardware with open drivers, we will never reveal the schematics or we would just have cheap Chinese Pandora clones showing up which most certainly isn't part of the plan.

Makes sense, unfortunately! Still: do you have more info on the peripheral chips you have selected so far? Typically, Bluetooth & Wireless chipsets ?

Ed

 

[darkblu]

While we have been open with the parts used, and where possible used hardware with open drivers, we will never reveal the schematics or we would just have cheap Chinese Pandora clones showing up which most certainly isn't part of the plan.

We are however happy to sell the bare boards or even do modifications for bulk customers.

i had a dream last night about having a few pandora boards (blue silk screening at that!) lying around. i consider this a good premonition as i tend to get multiple spare parts (mostly logic boards) only for devices i get deeply involved with ; )

 

[hessiess]

A lot of the drivers look like they are going to be propiaterry binary blobs

What makes you think so? Only 3D (SGX) is going to use blob, everything else (except firmware running inside wifi chip) is open and already in public repositories.


There was talk of the wireless/bluetooth drivers possibly also being a blob, If its just the firmware then all the better (It is quite difficult to stay 100% up to date on a project that doesn't have all updates in one central location, not everything on here makes it on to the blog)

 

[Squidge]

Makes sense, unfortunately! Still: do you have more info on the peripheral chips you have selected so far? Typically, Bluetooth & Wireless chipsets ?

Currently, this is all under NDA. We don't want use to the NDA parts however (as that would mean another binary blob), we want it open source. Therefore we are writing our own Wifi driver using publically available information. Since we have no knowledge of how the Wifi/BT works internally, the software uploaded to that will have to be a binary blob (unless someone wishes to reverse engineer the existing blob and write there own version for a future firmware release).

The Wifi/BT part number has been disclosed on this forum already if you wish to search for information on it.

 

[notaz]

Therefore we are writing our own Wifi driver using publically available information.

You are out of date, the driver was open sourced by Android project, so we just use that. Writing driver from scratch for that kind of chip would take ages!

 

[RajTakhar]

If they end up doing loads of modifications on the bare boards - does that not result in introducing new Pandora platforms which potentially could have different apps applied to them.

I though the whole point was to have a single stable base for the Pandora.

This does also imply that future revisions could see increased NAND/RAM being applied by modding the Boards - which I suppose could widen the appeal of the Pandora - but again introduces the possibility of more Pandora platforms.

Modding should have been left alone for a while, and the possibility of such mods being shown after the first batch

It may like me result in thinking about cancelling my order and await downstream, when someone brings out a pimped up Pandora i.e twice NAND/RAM and a tablet form factor (true the costs may be higher it may be worth it and you could potentially get round the tablet mod in various guizes)

 

[PsoBloke]

Modding should have been left alone for a while, and the possibility of such mods being shown after the first batch

It may like me result in thinking about cancelling my order and await downstream, when someone brings out a pimped up Pandora i.e twice NAND/RAM and a tablet form factor (true the costs may be higher it may be worth it and you could potentially get round the tablet mod in various guizes)

I agree. Allowing select parts (i.e. Boards) would be useful to have on offer, anything else would be more like a revision/new version of the hardware. Although saying that, things such as the RAM is not replaceable or expandable, anything changed to that would be too much hassle for just a few bulk orders, so I wouldn't think there's anything to panic about yet.

 

[OrR]

You are afraid of people modding Pandoras? The thing has USB host! Of course there will be software that only works with special equipment! However, most of the software will work on the base Pandora. If you want GPS, motion sensing, GSM, camera etc. you can solder it to your Pandora, connect it via USB or wait for somebody to make a Pandora that has the functionality built in. Waiting for an Uber-Pandora that has everything anyone can dream of is a stupid idea, though. It will never happen.

 

[kattle87]

You are out of date, the driver was open sourced by Android project, so we just use that. Writing driver from scratch for that kind of chip would take ages!

Can I dare to ask: since it has been opensourced, will packet injection be ever possible? I mean, not the day after release, but somewhere in time?

 

[Chip]

Can I dare to ask: since it has been opensourced, will packet injection be ever possible? I mean, not the day after release, but somewhere in time?
We aren't planning on having it in the first build, but we are using an open source driver so you could conceivably add that functionality if you wanted to.

 

[Squidge]

We aren't planning on having it in the first build, but we are using an open source driver so you could conceivably add that functionality if you wanted to.

Doesn't that depend on where the functionality needs to be added? I've not looked at the driver, but there are two parts to it - an open source part and a closed source part (which gets uploaded to the Wifi module). If it requires support of code in the closed source part, then it will be difficult.

kattle87: What do you need it for?

 

[Chip]

I originally posted this in the comments on the unofficial blog, but I figured it's just as applicable here.

QUOTE
The Pandora hardware is as open as we can reasonably make it. MWeston worked in as many additional contact points (I2C, serial, USB, etc) into the board as he could, and those will all be documented for hacking purposes. If you’re looking to mod something, we’ll help you out with trace locations. Posting full schematics wouldn’t do anybody besides Chinese knockoff shops any good.

Similarly, all software and drivers that we are legally allowed to release we are releasing. Almost everything is already available for download. The only bits we’re not releasing (SGX binary, internal wifi firmware) are bits that we are NOT ALLOWED to release.

Fully open source hardware is a nice dream, but it’s not practical if you want something with high performance. Every halfway decent graphics core available on a SoC is VERY under NDA. There are no “open” options. Taking a look at fully open source hardware platforms proves this out.

The Freerunner and the Chumby are the only two commercially viable open source platforms available. They’re noble projects, but neither contain anything near state-of-the-art hardware. They’re also both externally funded. Very well funded in fact. Openmoko is a pet project of multi-billion-dollar electronics manufacturer FIC and Chumby Industries works off of several million in investment funding.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. It’s just a lot easier to be altruistic and give away a few hundred thousand dollars worth of hardware development when you have millions worth of somebody else’s money to play with. Openpandora doesn’t have that luxury.

 

[marco.polo]

While we have been open with the parts used, and where possible used hardware with open drivers, we will never reveal the schematics or we would just have cheap Chinese Pandora clones showing up which most certainly isn't part of the plan.

Makes sense, unfortunately! Still: do you have more info on the peripheral chips you have selected so far? Typically, Bluetooth & Wireless chipsets ?

Ed


Yeah that makes sense ... some people had the same idea with software once. It would be open so people could add to it, make lightweight or 'cheap' versions of it, anybody could distribute it if they could make it more efficiently as original developers ... what a silly idea, those people had to be retarted ... Oh wait, it's called open-source isn't it?

We would have cheap Chineese versions of it, oh noes .. do you hear that? CHEAP ... we certainly don't want THAT, people could afford it more easily then, oh the disaster ... who would make profit then ...

Really, just wake up what makes sense about it?

I understand that developers gave a great effort into it and they deserve the profit. Also I assume you have to order some greater quantity of components to make every single of them affordable for reasonable price so you have to sell some minimum amount of it before it pays off and making boards public could put it into jeopardy (if you have investment in it).

So that makes sense ... but don't fool people (or possibly yourself) that's it's because there would be 'cheap' imitations of it available - that's a good thing, VERY good thing actually - that's the whole idea of open architecture. If sombody can make it cheaper, more lightweight or cram more features/components into it that will benefit all users - it's not like you're forced to buy it if you don't like that particular mod!

You could possibly make it public after your investment in it is payed off and you don't have further money invested in it so nothing to lose ... except for posible future profit, but if you're doing it for profit stop BSit-ing around and jus say so.