A potentially simpler solution for the short- to medium-term would be an upgrade along the lines of the BeagleBoard-xM, which AIUI uses the AM37/DM37x chip. If this could be incorporated in the Pandora without excessive redesign, existing software should be persuaded to work without too much difficulty and a higher clock speed would be available without going so far out of spec. (Note that similar software work has recently been undertaken to get RISC OS working on the -xM board.) PS I'm still happy to receive the current Pandora - a subsequent version in a year or so could always retail for a slightly higher price.
OMAP4440 Dual Core
- Thread starter Zadak
- Start date
Using the faster OMAP and more RAM is already possible with the latest board revision.
But as I already said a while ago: We won't change the CPU right now as it would be unfair for all the guys who have been waiting.
We changed it in case that sometime in the future, TI will no longer sell the slower version. You never know. And in case that happens, the faster SoC can be used without a board change,
SNESFAN
Retro game fanatic
would it be possible for your average joe with a soldering iron to be able to perform this upgrade if one so existed?
slaeshjag
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Short answer: No.
Long answer: The SoC is not user replaceable. It *might* be possible to remove it with a heat gun and then clean the solder pads with something solder absorbing, and then solder a new chip by placing the BGA and using the heat gun again. But for that to work you'll need a few buckets of luck and you are still most likely to just destroy the PCB.
The only reasonable way to upgrade a pandora is switching board.
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Letalis Sonus
Advanced Member
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It's double-packed, on top of the SoC is another PCB with the RAM and NAND connected via another BGA.
It's already very hard to do with the right equipment for handling BGAs (if you don't have one of these large professional full-automatic mass-production machines), but if you somehow succeed to do it with a heat gun you seriously deserve an entry in the Guinness World Records book.
It's already very hard to do with the right equipment for handling BGAs (if you don't have one of these large professional full-automatic mass-production machines), but if you somehow succeed to do it with a heat gun you seriously deserve an entry in the Guinness World Records book.
MarioPandio
Well-Known Member
Cheers for that ED as despite all the current back and forth I could have sworn you'd said similar in the distant past, perhaps back when the RAM was upgraded as a freebie on the pre-orders, when the prices fell. Regardless, version 1 is very nice and has lots of potential for awhile, thanks to all the Dev's so far with hands on one.
slaeshjag
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I did not say it was *easy*, I've read about some people that managed to solder BGA's with very basic tools (don't have any links though,) but I wouldn't expect anyone to pull it off, especially not on such a densely populated board like the Pandora's.
Letalis Sonus
Advanced Member
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- Mar 5, 2009
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The problem is not BGA soldering with basic tools in general. (But the small size is still an issue, if I'm not mistaking the lower BGA has 515 balls with .4 mm pitch and the upper one has 168 balls with .5 mm pitch) The problem is that you have 2 BGAs that you can't handle separately (See the schematics on Wikipedia).
You can't solder one BGA without influencing the other one, it is doomed to fail if you don't even have proper reflow equipment.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Maybe you guys should do some polling and get a feel for what the overall response would be. Having to use a more expensive yet inferior chip with no technical requirement for it is a travesty.
(but as I said, I wouldn't dream of doing this before first batch sales were close to done)
Fact is, even if you did change it, the people who'd be getting the better ones would be getting them so much longer after the people who got the first Pandoras that I'd argue it's unfair to make them wait over a year and end up with the same thing.
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second exodous
Advanced Member
I'd vote 'no' on upgrading the Pandora1. This would only fracture the community between those that have the old one and those that have the new one. Might as well just do a big upgrade, i.e. OMAP4, and call it Pandora2.
Would it be possible to do something like the gumstix on the next Pandora? If the Pandora2 is basically a shell for an OMAP4 gumstix COM it could be easily upgraded and the old chips could be used with gumstix add on boards or sold over the internet. Once again it would fracture the community but this would at least be way for the user to upgrade without buying an entire new unit and would be cheaper between huge Pandora revisions. Right now gumstix doesn't have any OMAP4 modules but I'm sure they'll make some eventually.
Or just use their idea, it is open source so you could tweak it a little so upgrades would have to be bought from the OP team to work on the Pandora2 but with an small adapter would still be able to be used with other gumstix modules. Not enough space would be available in the Pandora to use an adapter forcing Pandora users to buy upgrades from the OP team. Or just not be greedy and let people buy upgrades where they're cheap.
It's just an idea, probably silly.
Would it be possible to do something like the gumstix on the next Pandora? If the Pandora2 is basically a shell for an OMAP4 gumstix COM it could be easily upgraded and the old chips could be used with gumstix add on boards or sold over the internet. Once again it would fracture the community but this would at least be way for the user to upgrade without buying an entire new unit and would be cheaper between huge Pandora revisions. Right now gumstix doesn't have any OMAP4 modules but I'm sure they'll make some eventually.
Or just use their idea, it is open source so you could tweak it a little so upgrades would have to be bought from the OP team to work on the Pandora2 but with an small adapter would still be able to be used with other gumstix modules. Not enough space would be available in the Pandora to use an adapter forcing Pandora users to buy upgrades from the OP team. Or just not be greedy and let people buy upgrades where they're cheap.
It's just an idea, probably silly.
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Caine
Hardcore Member
I essentially agree with you. Though it makes no sense whatsoever for the team to keep equipping the Pandora with a slower processor if a faster one is available at a lower price.
As a day-one pre-orderer I would feel cheated, and I will cancel to reorder at a later batch if I learn of such plans on the short-term. BUT, had I received my unit in 2008 then a 2011 upgrade wouldn't have bothered me at all. It's the risk of a pre-order I suppose.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
I really don't see how it'd fracture anything, except psychologically. There wouldn't be a software divide at all. It wouldn't be that much different than people being able to overclock higher. I don't see how a "big" upgrade that really would be a totally different hardware target would somehow be better, even if it's called Pandora 2. One would take a lot of time and extra money for a platform that isn't ready for it, the other would take no time and save money.
Personally I wouldn't feel cheated at all. My guess is most people wouldn't actually cancel their preorder because it'd mean losing their place on the queue and waiting potentially several months longer. Isn't batch two being sold at a higher price too?
Having any kind of modular design would increase cost and space, and having people open up a Pandora would be a warranty problem even with such a design.
Personally I wouldn't feel cheated at all. My guess is most people wouldn't actually cancel their preorder because it'd mean losing their place on the queue and waiting potentially several months longer. Isn't batch two being sold at a higher price too?
Having any kind of modular design would increase cost and space, and having people open up a Pandora would be a warranty problem even with such a design.
Dead1nside
Well-Known Member
I would be quite miffed if there was an upgrade to Pandora 1 that I wasn't able to take advantage of because of early interest and loyalty to the project. I might not have been a day 1 pre-orderer but it's been over a year now that I've been waiting. On the other hand I would like to see faster processors and more RAM, but there's no doubt about it splitting the community. If there was a reasonable upgrade route, then I'd be open to that, but I think that's unlikely.
Save it for Pandora 2?
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SNESFAN
Retro game fanatic
as long as the same software is compatible with the new hardware, what does it matter if the clock speed is higher?
case in point, android smartphones, you buy one now and in 6 months a significantly faster one is out, all the exact same software works on it, but just a lot better and a lot faster and smoother. I have bought every "generation" of android phone available from my carrier, the experience just gets more enjoyable with every generation. Stunting progress in favor of people still buying the current gen sounds laughable to me.
should people who ordered 2 years ago feel cheated that 2 years have passed and they are making a newer model? Not at all, just buy the newer model if you want a faster pandora. It wouldn't make the one you bought 2 years ago any less powerful than it currently is. Make the pandora 2 more expensive if the price is a factor. If they only made 4000 there isn't any lost stock of parts, especially if basically everything is reusable and the boards themselves (the most expensive part) isn't even made yet.
to say it will splinter the community, I'm pretty sure that more damage was done with that over the past 2 years of not having something they bought. I don't know how many people canceled, but I'm pretty sure it was alot more than having 2 devices, just one that is up to today's spec. You would be slapping your customer base that supported you from the beginning in the face, but lets face it, I'm pretty sure if you're that die hard of a fan, would buy another one if a faster one was available.
I'm going to start a poll to see what people think about this.
case in point, android smartphones, you buy one now and in 6 months a significantly faster one is out, all the exact same software works on it, but just a lot better and a lot faster and smoother. I have bought every "generation" of android phone available from my carrier, the experience just gets more enjoyable with every generation. Stunting progress in favor of people still buying the current gen sounds laughable to me.
should people who ordered 2 years ago feel cheated that 2 years have passed and they are making a newer model? Not at all, just buy the newer model if you want a faster pandora. It wouldn't make the one you bought 2 years ago any less powerful than it currently is. Make the pandora 2 more expensive if the price is a factor. If they only made 4000 there isn't any lost stock of parts, especially if basically everything is reusable and the boards themselves (the most expensive part) isn't even made yet.
to say it will splinter the community, I'm pretty sure that more damage was done with that over the past 2 years of not having something they bought. I don't know how many people canceled, but I'm pretty sure it was alot more than having 2 devices, just one that is up to today's spec. You would be slapping your customer base that supported you from the beginning in the face, but lets face it, I'm pretty sure if you're that die hard of a fan, would buy another one if a faster one was available.
I'm going to start a poll to see what people think about this.
Sugar_Kane
Could crush a grape
If they are in a position to upgrade but aren't doing so because it wouldn't be fair to the pre-orderers, well I think I'm slightly torn on that because yes it would be unfair, but it also seems slightly silly to keep the processor at a level that was promised in 2008 just because production took so long.
How about offering any new boards as a reasonably priced upgrade to existing pre-orderers and those that already have their units? Ideally charging as little as humanly possible. Perhaps allow them to send their units in for a board swap, maybe even put the old boards into spare cases and sell them as refurbs.
I know that most would consider the thought of paying out extra to have an upgrade that new customers were getting for the standard price to be outrageous, and I would usually agree, but I would be willing to forgive this for the sake of the future of the Pandora.
How about offering any new boards as a reasonably priced upgrade to existing pre-orderers and those that already have their units? Ideally charging as little as humanly possible. Perhaps allow them to send their units in for a board swap, maybe even put the old boards into spare cases and sell them as refurbs.
I know that most would consider the thought of paying out extra to have an upgrade that new customers were getting for the standard price to be outrageous, and I would usually agree, but I would be willing to forgive this for the sake of the future of the Pandora.
Caine
Hardcore Member
To my knowledge it was always the intent to upgrade the hardware of the Pandora over time. I don't really see how it will splinter the community. As good software will run the processor as slow as possible. I just wouldn't like to see a more powerful unit for roughly the same price about two months after I received my own.
Though it is true that the price did increase quite a bit in the meantime. Hmmm. I'm a bit torn on the issue. I will probably end up buying a second unit anyway.
I suppose we should support the greater good here. Switch processor ASAP and try to find a nice way to compensate your early supporters.
Though it is true that the price did increase quite a bit in the meantime. Hmmm. I'm a bit torn on the issue. I will probably end up buying a second unit anyway.
I suppose we should support the greater good here. Switch processor ASAP and try to find a nice way to compensate your early supporters.
second exodous
Advanced Member
It sounds like ED has the right idea, no change unless Ti no longer makes the current chip. If that happens then then a change will be made.
You guys make no sense, you say that it will run everything the same with a faster chip. First, then why upgrade? ED has the right idea on this: don't unless it is necessary.
Second, as a community driven system rather than a central company to dictate to what specs code is written who ever is writing the code will use his unit as the norm and if he has a faster unit then what he writes will not run or run as well on the older units. A company like say Nintendo can switch things up but they will specify that even though they have faster hardware now because of chip shortages software will still be written to the old hardware specs so there are no issues with things not running on the older handhelds. I'm not saying it has happened but I'm sure Nintendo understands that it does not want to piss customers off and each device has a pre-determined life cycle.
Lots of valid arguments are made for an update but I'm putting my trust in the OP team to do what make sense and will anger fewer of their small community that they depend on for future sales. If they upgrade to the current Pandora that is fine if not thats ok also. If they do an upgrade on the current Pandora before I've even had my Pandora for a year that makes software written that needs extra memory or processor speed that I don't have I will be pissed.
Incremental upgrades is just a bad idea unless chips are not made anymore, basically it has to be a good reason with no other option.
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Sorry, I missed the previous post mentioning this. Anyway, changing now would be sure to piss off a lot of people (including the board manufacturer). And IMHO there would be less incentive to tweak the current N64 emulator for further speed increases if the community were to become split in terms of CPU/RAM.
However, if the original Pandora continues to be sold in a couple of years, I don't think a minor baord upgrade then with the newer CPU would do much harm. And even without any possible newer dual core 'Pandora 2', existing users may possibly choose to upgrade to the newer CPU in a couple of years, selling their original one on and thereby increasing the size of the community!
cosurgi
http://janek.kozicki.pl/
Hi Caine,
of course I still have it. And of course I'll let you all know how it works.
BTW: you guys talk much, I wish I could...
