Music Mixing/dj Software On Op

[b1llygo4t]

hi there folks. iv been lurking here for a while, just never had any questions or anything to add, so hello, im billy.

hope im posting in the right place.
i did a quick search but couldnt find any discussions for either music recording/mixing OR digital dj software. i plan on using my pando as a portable recording device (among other things). iv seen alot of touch screen midi-controllers/turntables/mixing interfaces poping lately, and i would love to be able to do those things on my pandora. i guess this is more of a preemptive port request as i havnt looked into any apps yet, would any devs be willing to port over music software?

 

[rabidpoobear]

hi there folks. iv been lurking here for a while, just never had any questions or anything to add, so hello, im billy.

Sup billy. welcome.

hope im posting in the right place.

Yes, thank you for not posting in Dev.

i did a quick search but couldnt find any discussions for either music recording/mixing OR digital dj software.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gp32x.de%2Fboard+music+software

i plan on using my pando as a portable recording device (among other things). iv seen alot of touch screen midi-controllers/turntables/mixing interfaces poping lately, and i would love to be able to do those things on my pandora. i guess this is more of a preemptive port request as i havnt looked into any apps yet, would any devs be willing to port over music software?

Short answer - yes, this is one of the things the Pandora is going to be very well suited for. There will be a lot of apps. Torpor is our main Audio guy so far, but I and other devs are also going to be writing apps - there will probably even be some original ones, like a reimagining of the Kaoss Pad 3 (except instead of a 16x16 red LED grid under the pad we'll have a 800x480 full-color display, as well as a lot more inputs and memory and processing power and.... you get the idea) among many other kickass things.

 

[gibberish]

does pandora have 2 seperate audio outputs?
if not then mixing wont be possible really.

 

[relapse808]

I can see some simplisitc recording software of maybe even a virtual instrument or two, but I dont see the pandora sound chip being able to handle a lot with low latency.

Edit : Spelling

 

[Loon]

does pandora have 2 seperate audio outputs?
if not then mixing wont be possible really.

Would it not be possible to use a USB sound card as the 2nd audio output?

Don't really know a lot about this sort of thing but I've heard that this is the way a lot of people do it with a laptop.

 

[rabidpoobear]

does pandora have 2 seperate audio outputs?
if not then mixing wont be possible really.

Would it not be possible to use a USB sound card as the 2nd audio output?

Don't really know a lot about this sort of thing but I've heard that this is the way a lot of people do it with a laptop.

Yep, should be easily possible. Not sure if you can use the headphone output for monitoring and use the line-out as a separate output or not, but you can definitely use a USB sound card.

 

[rabidpoobear]

I can see some simplisitc recording software of maybe even a virtual instrument or two, but I dont see the pandora sound chip being able to handle a lot with low latency.

Edit : Spelling

You still spelled simplistic incorrectly, but that's neither here nor there...

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. Are you sure YOU know what you're talking about?

VSTi's and the recording software run on the CPU. The sound is output using ALSA or PulseAudio (possibly routed with JACK) to the sound card at some sampling frequency (say 44.1khz). The latency of the sound going from the software to the hardware outputs is not dependent on the CPU speed; if a game can run and output sound instantaneously (say <10ms latency) then so can the recording software. In fact, it's more likely that the recording software will have a low latency setup than the game.

Now if your argument really had nothing to do with the sound chip and you were really saying "the CPU is too slow to run lots of VSTi's at once" then that's a different point altogether and I don't think you should mention the sound hardware. And even so, I don't agree with you. I don't think you realize the pathetic processor speeds we have on a lot of current music hardware. The Pandora's processor is a revelation in comparison. Also, we have a DSP (which arguably is not useful in most cases 'cause most software is written without regard to the DSP, but it can be used for newer software to speed up certain effects.)

So basically you need to be much clearer about your argument for it to be taken seriously.

 

[relapse808]

I can see some simplisitc recording software of maybe even a virtual instrument or two, but I dont see the pandora sound chip being able to handle a lot with low latency.

Edit : Spelling

You still spelled simplistic incorrectly, but that's neither here nor there...

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. Are you sure YOU know what you're talking about?

VSTi's and the recording software run on the CPU. The sound is output using ALSA or PulseAudio (possibly routed with JACK) to the sound card at some sampling frequency (say 44.1khz). The latency of the sound going from the software to the hardware outputs is not dependent on the CPU speed; if a game can run and output sound instantaneously (say <10ms latency) then so can the recording software. In fact, it's more likely that the recording software will have a low latency setup than the game.

Now if your argument really had nothing to do with the sound chip and you were really saying "the CPU is too slow to run lots of VSTi's at once" then that's a different point altogether and I don't think you should mention the sound hardware. And even so, I don't agree with you. I don't think you realize the pathetic processor speeds we have on a lot of current music hardware. The Pandora's processor is a revelation in comparison. Also, we have a DSP (which arguably is not useful in most cases 'cause most software is written without regard to the DSP, but it can be used for newer software to speed up certain effects.)

So basically you need to be much clearer about your argument for it to be taken seriously.

I never said CPU, so dont assume that I am talking about that. I am talking about the sound chip itself and its ability to run apps with a latency under 20ms. Most built in sound cards for a PC that I have seen have a latency close to 1000ms. I doubt the sound chip for pandora is better than a soundmax chip built into a mobo.

If this wasnt the case then devices from companies like MOTU, Maudio, Presonus, etc. So I am talking about the time it takes from me hitting a note on my controller to the time it takes for me to hear the audio output. This has nothing to do with the CPU and I never said anything about. Why dont you try reading what I wrote and not acting like a complete dick!!

 

[BaDToaD]

Latency has been discussed before and deemed not to be an issue on the Pandora.

Latency pro audio etc.

 

[cobaltage]

Most built in sound cards for a PC that I have seen have a latency close to 1000ms.

The latency is dependent on the audio driver. For Windows PCs, check out ASIO4ALL. You can get low latencies with the built in sound card on most PCs with it. It's not useful for everything (it won't change the number of inputs or outputs obviously), but it's useful for all sorts of simple tasks.

For PC DAWs, CPU cycles are needed for almost everything -- effects, synthesizers, etc. However, it's possible to run optimized software for simpler or less powerful systems.

I once got into a forum discussion on KVR with that dude, MDA, who wrote all of those free VST effects. He was commissioned to write the effects for Griff (or whatever that Palm OS software studio is called). He mentioned that the trick to writing the effects for Palm OS was to cut out the requirement for hardware FPU (floating point unit) support, which Palm devices don't have.

I think we'll have to see how capable the Pandora is at these things. For a single software synthesizer, Pandora will be able to do that, no problem. It definitely won't be able to run 20 instances of a convolution reverb plugin with low latency. It probably won't be able to do a live mixdown of 32 audio tracks. Outside of that, I really couldn't say.

 

[Loon]

Talking of USB Sound cards for DJing, wonder if these would work with Pandora?

For portability and price over quality : check this out from deal extreme.

For quality and a damn reasonable price then how about : this one from ebuyer.

Both apparently work under linux, which I guess is a start. Though optical out is apparently a problem for the Asonic card.

Both are also USB2 which IIRC means they could be plugged directly into the Pandora.

 

[Luminous]

since this subject is opened for the third time and is a little more closer to my needs..

I am seeing if I could use the OP for playlisting for radio broadcasting by using a custom program/OS like some here have mentioned about similar audio programs. So I don't need to switch around a bunch of CDs or go the new route and use a hard drive and a regular computer program. Also it including the ability for me to speak over the radio, of course I hope such a setup wouldn't be hard to put together.

 

[deise]

Hi, I'd say you would have on problem creating a playlist in the media player and over dubbing your voice with an external mic, but how will you broadcast the radio, over wifi ? You will need an app to encode the audio to internet quality and I have know idea how quickly the Pandora can do that live.

 

[Luminous]

Thanks for the response, Deise. I was trying to convey old school broadcasting over the airways, not using the internet, using with the pandora the appropriate broadcasting box and all, as a portable lightweight appendage to it. I just need the playlist prog custom 4 ARM linux so I can use that instead of the other equipment usually needed to play the audio over the airwaves It would be super cool lessening my loadout.

 

[b1llygo4t]

wow what an active forum! im very excited after reading that pro audio thread. i really want to do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= kind of stuff, i love beatboxing, and having a way to distort/loop/record/sample vocals (or instruments for that matter) would just be amazing. now im glad i dumped cash into this instead of a new saxaphone. i could see the pandora being used by alot of digital artists for alot of different applications.

to think i originally wanted to get one for gaming...

 

[zevdawg]

hi there folks. iv been lurking here for a while, just never had any questions or anything to add, so hello, im billy.

hope im posting in the right place.
i did a quick search but couldnt find any discussions for either music recording/mixing OR digital dj software. i plan on using my pando as a portable recording device (among other things). iv seen alot of touch screen midi-controllers/turntables/mixing interfaces poping lately, and i would love to be able to do those things on my pandora. i guess this is more of a preemptive port request as i havnt looked into any apps yet, would any devs be willing to port over music software?

AFAIK torpor appears to be actively coding/porting audio software for the Panda.
I will direct you to this thread over here to check out what he's got on the platter at the moment for all things audio.

Cheers!

 

[rabidpoobear]

...
So basically you need to be much clearer about your argument for it to be taken seriously.

I never said CPU, so dont assume that I am talking about that. I am talking about the sound chip itself and its ability to run apps with a latency under 20ms. Most built in sound cards for a PC that I have seen have a latency close to 1000ms. I doubt the sound chip for pandora is better than a soundmax chip built into a mobo.

If this wasnt the case then devices from companies like MOTU, Maudio, Presonus, etc. So I am talking about the time it takes from me hitting a note on my controller to the time it takes for me to hear the audio output. This has nothing to do with the CPU and I never said anything about. Why dont you try reading what I wrote and not acting like a complete dick!!

Perhaps you need to read http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html . It might help you deal with internet forums more aptly. As for me taking the time to read what you typed, I think the problem is that I read it too closely and you contradicted yourself, and I just wanted to clarify which point you were trying to make. Did you read what I typed as well? I was pretty clear about my point, but here, let's go again.

I wasn't being a complete dick. I was maybe a bit harsher than I needed to be, but it was pretty clear you didn't know what you were talking about. You said that the pandora would be too slow to run "more than a few VSTi's at once". That is a completely different argument than audio latency. If the Pandora had a latency issue, then _ONE_ VSTi would not be able to run efficiently. Audio latency has NOTHING to do with the QUANTITY of software that is generating audio output *, it has ONLY to do with the latency from copying audio from the software to the hardware device at the kernel level and then performing a D/A conversion. Therefore the number of virtual instruments you're running has absolutely no bearing on latency. So your original point made no sense, where it referenced the inability to run "more than a few VSTi's at once."

If you still can't see why I asked you to clarify your original post, that's fine, I won't mention it again. Now that you have clarified what you really were talking about, I can say with satisfaction that the Pandora will not have an audio latency problem *.

I'm sorry you feel I've been less than courteous. I'm just trying to make sure we're clear on the real situation. Isn't that the real goal, after all? Clarity? To pass information between each other as efficiently and directly as possible?


*(okay technically if you run so many VSTi's that the CPU can't keep up you will have lost data / lag / skips / etc. but this is not really the same thing as latency.)

 

[torpor]

The HARDWARE latency on the Pandora is going to be at least as good as most professional audio equipment, no question about it. The components used are industry-standard, and well selected for the job.

The SOFTWARE latency on the Pandora is an open question, and is something we will only be able to investigate once we actually have the devices in our hands. It could be terrible, to be honest, depending on how the OP devs have been treating their build of the kernel.. there is *much* tweaking to be done to make a Linux kernel perform very well as an Audio engine, and fortunately this is very possible and fun to do with Linux, actually.

There is also COMPUTATIONAL latency, which is the amount of processing power required to compute buffers for output. Depending on the algorithm of the plugin/softsynth/audio app, this can be very, very bad or it can be very, very good. In typical experience, I would imagine we'd be able to get a pretty tight sound out of a drum machine and a couple of softsynths on the Pandora .. but this is really dependent on too many factors that are unknown right now to make speculation worthwhile.