Man Page Usage Debate

[javaJake]

We're having a bit of a debate on #openpandora about how many users use the terminal, and whether man pages are a good idea to include by default or not.

So, vote away, and feel free to reply if your vote isn't descriptive enough!

 

[Bosbeetle]

I dont know because this is my first linux machine, I tried to open some man pages but I couldnt because they are not available on the pandora if Im correct. I voted often since I owned the thing for 4 weeks and already tried to reach man pages (unsuccesfully) about 6 times (as a sort of reflex apparently)

 

[Polossatik]

Why simply don't let the user decide? "Install man pages (takes ... MB) yes/no"

how much space is this taking anyway?

 

[JayFoxRox]

My opinion is that "--help" is usually enough.

With the small display of the pandora you don't want to have multi-page man pages anyway (Unless you like to work with lots of workspaces, as switching terminals is not possible using the normal keyboard) and a lot of users probably don't even use the terminal, and if, they will just live with "--help" or follow instructions on the internet.
Additionally one can still see manpages on the internet or install them manually.
For packages which depend on the manpages (and those should be RARE - but they exist, ptor gave the sample "git help commit"), they are probably included in the package, "--help" gives enough info or they have some fallback to a minimalistic description

Additionally, those who use the terminal from time to time, know those commands they work with and don't even need manpages. So unless you are working with TONS of different commands in which case you can't remember all switches etc, you wouldn't really need a manpage neither (And even then, "--help" would be enough to remind you of the available switches)

 

[VRAndy]

I use the console a lot. In fact it's part of the reason I got Pandora and not some other thing.

I tend to use man pages a lot (on other systems), but I can live without them when I'm within range of a wifi point, and in most cases my question can be answered with a --Help. I guess what I'm saying is that man pages are a "nice to have", but in most cases it's not a real inconvenience not to have them.



(Oh P.S. I am also opposed to forum polls on general principal, and still believe that their accuracy approaches a random number generator in usefulness.)

 

[WizardStan]

Why simply don't let the user decide? "Install man pages (takes ... MB) yes/no"

Because there isn't some "man pages" package that can be installed: every package is responsible for installing its own man pages. If you install a package out of the angstrom repo, you also need to install package-docs in order to get the man page.
So it isn't just "should man pages be installed?", but "which man pages should be installed?"

 

[Mofokubik]

Since i'm the only no terminal guy, I figured i'd post..

I'm new to linux and so far I haven't touched the terminal, but mainly because I don't know what any of the commands are. Too lazy to learn atm..

I don't know what man pages are so I can't answer that. I assume man as in manual? If so then also no.

 

[elwing]

I'm new to linux and so far I haven't touched the terminal, but mainly because I don't know what any of the commands are. Too lazy to learn atm..

I don't know what man pages are so I can't answer that. I assume man as in manual? If so then also no.

I'm using the terminal, as it's quite necessary, but I avoid it as much as possible, and I altogether don't use the man page as it's much faster to look for information on internet for a specific problem rather than reading all the involved man page (and sometimes the required info are not in the man page anyway...)

 

[SomeGuy99]

My opinion is that "--help" is usually enough.

With the small display of the pandora you don't want to have multi-page man pages anyway (Unless you like to work with lots of workspaces, as switching terminals is not possible using the normal keyboard)

My terminal is mapped as followed:

Right-shoulder-t = make new tab
Right-shoulder-q = close tab

Left-shoulder-<left + right dpad> = change tab

 

[sebt3]

I voted often, as I use it regularly and I've already got "man command not found" a few times on my pandy.

But realy I don't care having then in my pandora.

maybe a gman.pnd (containing gman and manpages) would do the trick for most

 

[jdbye]

--help is usually enough for me and I hate scrolling through the man pages, a lot of them are just a huge wall of text that I have to sift through to find what I want, but some commands don't have a --help or it just doesn't explain what any of the switches do. So man pages are occasionally useful, useful enough that I'd say it's worth including depending on how much space it takes (only care about the size of the man pages for everything that comes with the Pandora, since I imagine you won't be installing that many things onto the NAND that it'll significantly increase the size of the man pages)
I have a linux server and no X server installed on it so whenever I do anything on it it's through the terminal.

EDIT: Where might I find #openpandora? Couldn't find the IRC server info anywhere (not that I really looked that hard)

 

[pder]

If space is an issue on the NAND, I like the idea of creating a seperate pnd package of the man pages you can install on an SD card.

 

[tsh]

Waste of space. If --help is not adequate, I will generally look for online documentation. Failing that, I can always refer to man pages on my desktop. I think the value of man pages on the pandora is very limited. Very few people will be learning from scratch using the man pages, I'd have thought.

 

[mitosis]

The lack of man pages on the n810 is one of my biggest frustrations with it.

IMHO, no linux install is complete without the man pages for at least all the default installed cli-based programs.

And you guys... not ALL of us have internet 24/7. In fact, my primary usage model for my Pandora will be for when I'm NOT at home, and thus DON'T have easy access to the internet to look things up. So the whole "just use the internet" argument is kinda narrow minded.

Just because you live in a world of always-on broadband doesn't mean we all do.

I would say that the easiest way to make everyone happy is to NOT include them by default (yep that's right, even though I can't live without them). There should be a program or script of some type that is included in the base OS that can be launched to download all the man pages for all the default installed cli-based programs only.

Now that I think about it... do people even MAKE man pages for gui-based programs?

edit: My reasoning why I think they're so necessary is that I can never remember what all the switches and options for commands are... --help usually just says what switches and options are available but rarely has a good description of each switch or option. Not to mention the fact that some commands don't have --help, and it never fails on my n810 that the one command I need help with DOESN'T have a --help option.

 

[javaJake]

Interesting responses so far. I'm falling down on the side of "allow easy install later" myself. Everyone gets what they want in the end.

(Oh P.S. I am also opposed to forum polls on general principal, and still believe that their accuracy approaches a random number generator in usefulness.)

You've got a point. I'll avoid them in the future.

EDIT: Where might I find #openpandora? Couldn't find the IRC server info anywhere (not that I really looked that hard)

irc.freenode.net, and you can get quick-n-easy access by logging in via java.freenode.net.

 

[God Ginrai]

Now that I think about it... do people even MAKE man pages for gui-based programs?

Yes.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

EDIT: Where might I find #openpandora? Couldn't find the IRC server info anywhere (not that I really looked that hard)

irc.freenode.net, and you can get quick-n-easy access by logging in via java.freenode.net.

http://pandorawiki.org/IRC

 

[cosurgi]

(Oh P.S. I am also opposed to forum polls on general principal, and still believe that their accuracy approaches a random number generator in usefulness.)

RNG giveth, RNG taketh away, as people on adom's usenet group used to say, when someobody found some great artifact only to die about an hour later (because he became too confident having it)

I am using man pages when I need to check something that I don't remember. Hard to measure how often, but they are useful and I'd like to have them. btw, the base linux manapges aren't a too big package.

 

[crade]

I really hate it when I try to man something and it doesn't frickin work.

 

[WizardStan]

So what I'm hearing is that you need a man to tell you what to do.