Is The Pandora Actually Powerful At All?

[Kyo]

Besides, I'd be quite angry at the crew if they did make a 256MB version rather soon, because I'd be stuck with a crappy launch pandora

 

[chad78]

Buuuuuuut isn't the biggest-selling home-console currently the only one that doesn't have multiple versions...? </pedant>
Not to continue this off-topicness, buuuuuuuuuut... Doesn't that same company have multiple versions of every handheld device they've ever made? (GBA, GBA SP, GB Micro, GBA SP with a better screen / DS, DS Lite / Game Boy, Game Boy Pocket, Game Boy Light, Game Boy Color...) And they also made multiple versions of the NES, the SNES, and the N64. Not to mention all the different models if you count changing the color of the case as a new model, and I assure you that Nintendo does count them as different models.

Of course, all of this is off topic, because the Pandora is not being built by Nintendo, or any other huge company that can afford to make multiple versions of the same product. Of course, it is likely that the second batch, or perhaps the 3rd batch with be slightly different, if our friends at GPH are any indication.

Chad if you dont like it go buy a linux umpc with more ram and let me buy this unit
et. al. you whiny brats who think you have the right to tell another human being what to do... I'll buy what I please. I might buy 10 just so some of you idiots won't get any.

Actually, Nokia announced that the next version of their N-Series Internet Tablets will have the same CPU that the Pandora has. And given that there software has been proven for years, has a ton of apps already finished and working, and I like the N800 - I will probably get one of those eventually, after they come out. No word on when that will be, which is far better than saying "February, no wait, April, no wait, June, no wait, August, no wait, October, no wait..."

 

[Prometheus]

Buuuuuuut isn't the biggest-selling home-console currently the only one that doesn't have multiple versions...? </pedant>
Not to continue this off-topicness, buuuuuuuuuut... Doesn't that same company have multiple versions of every handheld device they've ever made? (GBA, GBA SP, GB Micro, GBA SP with a better screen / DS, DS Lite / Game Boy, Game Boy Pocket, Game Boy Light, Game Boy Color...) And they also made multiple versions of the NES, the SNES, and the N64. Not to mention all the different models if you count changing the color of the case as a new model, and I assure you that Nintendo does count them as different models.

Well, yes, but as far as I know, none of those were treated in the same way as the PS3 and Xbox 360 models, as far as I'm aware. Although I may have misunderstood, I think I was responding to the notion of there being "standard" and "premium" versions available at the same time, not to the concept of later revisions with identical innards in the vein of the GBA SP/DS Lite/revised-home-consoles and so on. Again, though, I could well have misunderstood.

</off-topic again>

 

[_VWV_]

Actually, Nokia announced that the next version of their N-Series Internet Tablets will have the same CPU that the Pandora has. And given that there software has been proven for years, has a ton of apps already finished and working, and I like the N800 - I will probably get one of those eventually, after they come out. No word on when that will be, which is far better than saying "February, no wait, April, no wait, June, no wait, August, no wait, October, no wait..."

We don't know the detailed hardware specs. What we know almost for sure it'll cost a fortune. If this mysterious N900 comes with 256 MB of RAM on board and with the same SoC and for a reasonable price, I'll think of it. I doubt the first and the third conditions will come true in the nearest future.

 

[chad78]

I was responding to the notion of there being "standard" and "premium" versions available at the same time
You are right. I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me. To my knowledge, Nintendo has never released 2 versions of the same console in a "Basic" / "Pro" fashion.

</off-topic again>

 

[ashdjones]

I think it's already been stated that the Omap3 comes with the 128MB RAM built in and it cannot be changed.

No the OMAP3 doesn't come with any ram built in (apart from a small amount of sram). Instead, you use POP technology to solder the appropriate ram/flash module onto the top of the OMAP. However, when the Pandora was designed, only a 128MB RAM version was available. Also, it goes without saying that once the ram/flash module is married to the omap, it's not really possible to seperate them again without destroying one or the other.


Thanks. That clarifies things a bit better as it seems some misinformation was flying around.

It seems to me that 128MB is more than enough. Probably time some linux apps were put on a diet anyway!

 

[sdedalus83]

No RAM manufacturers even list a 2 Gb LPDDR PoP module right now. Nor do any companies offer an off the shelf MCP with 2 1 Gb modules. They do; however, offer 1 Gb Ram, 2 Gb NAND stacked modules. 256 MB of RAM would require a custom product, and that sort of thing is not something a startup with a launch of 3000 units can reasonably expect to base a product on.
The same thing is true of HDMI/DVI/DisplayPort output. HDMI has a $10,000 a year license fee, and implementing any of them would require a separate video interface chip, along with the connector and a very complex digital switch. So let's say it ends up being $12 - $15 in additional hardware and DisplayPort is used to avoid the HDMI license fee. Now the board becomes considerably larger, since the current PCB is pretty densely packed and now you add 2 rather large chips and one connector. So with the increased board size and complexity, along with the cost of the extra parts, simply adding an external video output probably adds 10 - 12% to the manufacturing cost of the Pandora. Instead of $330, it ends up being close to $400 and then the users who wanted more RAM start bitching, and their request just has to be filled, so a custom MCP is ordered, adding another $30 to the BOM, and bumping the price up to $450. The next wave of complaints are from the people who wanted a larger screen, and now that the Pandora has gotten pretty fat, the devs can't argue that increasing the screen size would make the device bigger. After a series of heated arguments, the new screen ends up being a 7" 1280x800 monster, pushing the price up around $550 and the size nearly to that of an Eee. Now everyone is bitching about how the handheld, pocketable computer is over 1 kg, costs as much as a premium netbook, and won't run windows.
The devs scrap everything and just design an Atom Centrino netbook with integrated gaming controls.

 

[PolloLoco]

et. al. you whiny brats who think you have the right to tell another human being what to do... I'll buy what I please. I might buy 10 just so some of you idiots won't get any.

LOL @ the Irony.

*Edited to be less offensive.

 

[anexanhume]

No word on when that will be, which is far better than saying "February, no wait, April, no wait, June, no wait, August, no wait, October, no wait..."

The quintessential difference is who the creators are. The pandora team is new at this, in that they are releasing their own device for the first time. They had no ability to anticipate some of the delays they've been given, and they don't have the clout or money to strong-arm their suppliers into meeting their schedule. If anything, they have been too willing to please us by mentioning dates that they anticipated the device would be ready. We were given insight and knowledge of the device long before traditional companies would have spilled they beans on it (for instance, we learned about the Wiz when it had a design finalized and complete prototypes were in developer hands). So, you can accuse the team of being too willing to please the followers, but that is about it.

 

[fusion_power]

"Not enogh RAM"? :lol: My first (386) PC had 4MB RAM and I've played some of the best Games of it's Time on this machine, even "X-Wing".

We should make a Thread and ask all Devs here in this board:

"Coders, what can you do with a OMAP and 128MB RAM?"

 

[x68000]

If chad still feels the need to whine and moan about Pandora this and Pandora that, why does he still hang around these boards when it is apparent that nobody wants him here and he seems to have little intention of buying one?

Can one of the mods please give him a final warning as calling fellow community members, 'idiots' is hardly acceptable round here according to the forum T&C of membership.

 

[anexanhume]

If chad still feels the need to whine and moan about Pandora this and Pandora that, why does he still hang around these boards when it is apparent that nobody wants him here and he seems to have little intention of buying one?

Can one of the mods please give him a final warning as calling fellow community members, 'idiots' is hardly acceptable round here according to the forum T&C of membership.

That's not fair either. Lately, he's only been doing that when someone attacked him first. Compared to the previous things he got in trouble for, he's only responding to people criticizing him. In that case, both people need reprimanded and neither is booted unless there are some serious violations.

We say to Chad to go away if he doesn't like it, but in kind, if you don't like his posts, don't read them or look or respond to them.

 

[PolloLoco]

If chad still feels the need to whine and moan about Pandora this and Pandora that, why does he still hang around these boards when it is apparent that nobody wants him here and he seems to have little intention of buying one?

Can one of the mods please give him a final warning as calling fellow community members, 'idiots' is hardly acceptable round here according to the forum T&C of membership.

That's not fair either. Lately, he's only been doing that when someone attacked him first. Compared to the previous things he got in trouble for, he's only responding to people criticizing him. In that case, both people need reprimanded and neither is booted unless there are some serious violations.

We say to Chad to go away if he doesn't like it, but in kind, if you don't like his posts, don't read them or look or respond to them.


No, it's a totally invalid defense to say that he's no longer instigating. Besides his comments on this thread, read his contributions to this other thread about the Wiz:

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...3869&st=270

Specifically galling is the fact that in a totally unrelated argument, he taunts a developer for daring to attempt psp emulation on the Pandora. This forum really needs a guy who styles himself after "comic book guy" from the Simpsons and annoys Pandora producers and developers. In his own words he'd rather purchase a product where he's in the dark with respect to development and potential deadlines. So he's definitely not cut out for this kind of community. I wonder if Chad or the mods will figure that out first.

I've actually wondered if he's a troll or a GPH plant, because on the thread I mentioned - at least one other member (I agreed) commented that a benefit of buying the Wiz is the fact that Chad won't be part of the community.

 

[MilanC]

wrong.

Erm... sorry, I meant, more powerful than the original eeePC. Which here did sell at 250€-300€ at the time. I checked, the newer ones are better

Simplistic comparison:
Both the eeePC and Pandora can overclock to 900MHz, and both celeron M and A8 deliver around 2 DMIPS per MHz.
But Pandora has a C64x+ DSP, while the eeePC hasn't.

 

[sdedalus83]

The Celeron M at 900 Mhz is generally faster than an Atom at 1.6 Ghz in CPU benchmarks, and the Atom is about 2.4 DMIPS/Mhz. Out of Order Execution renders theoretical performance comparisons with In Order Execution processors useless. In real world situations, the Celeron M is considerably more powerful per Mhz than the Cortex A9/Via C7/Intel Atom. Luckily for us, the apps built for the Pandora will be heavily optimized for the hardware, while Eee users get stuff meant to work on pretty much any 686 platform.

Case in point: My old 1.3 Ghz Celeron M 350 could run Conker's Bad Fur Day in Project64, scaled to 800 x 600, at full speed.

 

[Firewolf]

As someone who owns one of the first generation eeePCs I can tell you that the actual speed on them is locked at 630 mhz even though 900 mhz appears in most linux apps that show clockspeed. This is because the FSB is locked at 70 instead of 100 mhz; this can be adjusted by overclocking with certain apps specifically designed for the eeePC or by a BIOS flash, but the stock original eeePC is not as much of a workhorse as you seem to be assuming Don't get me wrong, I love the little guy and he's great for taking notes on my unusually small desk but the pandora will outperform it in most instances.

 

[MilanC]

Pages I saw seemed to suggest 2 DMIPS/MHz for celeron M, but then didn't find anything very clear. Sdedalus, that would mean 4 DMIPS/MHz ?

 

[Svartalf]

Simplistic comparison:
Both the eeePC and Pandora can overclock to 900MHz, and both celeron M and A8 deliver around 2 DMIPS per MHz.
But Pandora has a C64x+ DSP, while the eeePC hasn't.

I'd avoid simplistic comparisons.

Instructions per second has become an irrelevant measure of system performance. If you have double the IPS, but do 1/3-1/4 the work compared to something else, the "slower" processor is more powerful and actually "faster".

Now, having said this... The Pandora, with an optimal instruction mix, will be about 1.5-2.5-to-1 to the Celeron M with a similarly ideal instruction mix, at the same clock. The DSP helps on some things. The GPU does as well. Now, if you were to need x86 instruction capability, the A8 will be a weaker play- in order to gain the comparable or better performance, you will need to recompile the code for the A8. So, unless a commercial game vendor doesn't make a Pandora/Beagleboard port of, say, Jack Keane, you're not getting it at all on the Pandora- even if the Pandora's capable of running it's ARM version (if it were to exist) whereas the eeePC would be bogged down to slideshow framerates trying to allow you to play it as it was provided.

 

[sdedalus83]

Pages I saw seemed to suggest 2 DMIPS/MHz for celeron M, but then didn't find anything very clear. Sdedalus, that would mean 4 DMIPS/MHz ?

No, because the Celeron M is an out of order processor, it's much easier to get close to the theoretical maximum than it is with an in order processor. The other issue is that the Celeron M is much better at FP calculations, and has a very well established, mature set of SIMD instructions. DMIPS just shows the theoretical integer performance of a processor, and really is not a good indication of real world performance, where multiple processes, unoptimized code, and complex, FP heavy programs are all commonplace.

 

[x68000]

If chad still feels the need to whine and moan about Pandora this and Pandora that, why does he still hang around these boards when it is apparent that nobody wants him here and he seems to have little intention of buying one?

Can one of the mods please give him a final warning as calling fellow community members, 'idiots' is hardly acceptable round here according to the forum T&C of membership.

That's not fair either. Lately, he's only been doing that when someone attacked him first. Compared to the previous things he got in trouble for, he's only responding to people criticizing him. In that case, both people need reprimanded and neither is booted unless there are some serious violations.

We say to Chad to go away if he doesn't like it, but in kind, if you don't like his posts, don't read them or look or respond to them.

The same applies to your post too, if you don't like what i say, you don't have to repsond (and so it continues).

The problem is that there is no positivity with this guy. He puts a massive downer on almost every topic he enters. It eventually starts to wear you down when you hear it over and over again.