Is evildragon who we think he is ;)

[rygD]

I ran out of likes.

A few minutes more or less of pain, no matter how excruciating, is ethically relatively insignificant compared to the overall picture of ending a life.

Not so sure about that. Dying without pain isn't that bad. You just stop. It's worse for your friends and relatives than it is for you. /Pain/ is bad.

This is very true.  I still don't understand why there is so much resistance to suicide, especially things like assisted suicide.  Rather than opposing it perhaps a better option would to explore why the individual wants to end their life, and perhaps have policies in place that, if it is the best option long term for the individual, they can reach out to those who can make sure they are successful with as little pain as possible.  If the opposition to suicide is because of the selfishness of others, or the state getting involved (and wanting to use the person some more) I think there are many problems unrelated to the legality of suicide.

Well yes, obviously "humane execution" is a contradictio in terminis, much like "animal-friendly meat".

Well... animal-friendly meat is possible... by only eating meat of animals who died of a natural death...

Not sure that old meat would be that tasty though

It may be less tasty, but I, as an animal loving person who also loves eating them, find this to be a really good option.  There are positives and negatives related to this regarding the life of the animal.  First off, many animals used for food aren't living the best life.  Extending an unpleasant life isn't really a good option, imo.  Even if we could make sure they had great lives, with daily back massages and such, the cost of taking the animal from birth until natural death would increase the cost of meat, and if you include the cost of medical treatment and losses due to disease it might be more expensive.  I still think it might be a good option.  Things would be much easier if we had replicators, such as those in Star Trek: The Next Generation and such.

Why don't we eat dead people instead of burning them?

Would it be feasible to burn them, or use decomposing corpses to create electricity or something else?  On a related note, Soylent Green may just work out.

Nobody ever asks, what is in sausages...

Generally I dislike sausage, but for the varieties I do eat I have found that better ingredients make stuff I enjoy.   Mmmm, long pig sausage...

Making other people "stop", i.e. killing them, with or without pain, without their consent, is pretty much the worst thing you can do to them. It's not "not that bad".

I disagree with this, for a variety of reasons I won't get into here.  The above can probably lead you to a few.

Of course making people suffer is also pretty bad.

I would say it can be much worse than death, especially if killing them is an option (it always is), if the person would rather die than suffer. 

Making someone suffer and killing them is of course worse than killing them without suffering.

However killing them to end the suffering may be preferable, but anyone forcing them to live in any circumstance they find worse than death should be considered unacceptable.  I am probably mistaken, but it sounds like in the context of your post you are suggesting this is better than allowing them to die.  I agree a quick and painless death is better than a long and painful one, and no pain and no death may be better, however pain comes in many forms.

I'm in favor of euthanasia and abortion (obviously depending on the circumstances) because both can prevent unnecessary suffering, but I'm against capital punishment.

Just out of curiosity, do you favor imprisonment?  What if the person refuses that, and is willing to kill anyone who tries to capture them?  What if the person in question would rather be dead than whatever the alternative is?

Regarding the title of this thread, EvilDragon needs to live up to his name!

 

[Saber]

Well yes, obviously "humane execution" is a contradictio in terminis, much like "animal-friendly meat".

Well... animal-friendly meat is possible... by only eating meat of animals who died of a natural death...


Not sure that old meat would be that tasty though

Oops, you're right, I forgot about that possibility.

Is it even legal though to sell meat from animals that died a natural death? Natural death is typically old age (probably inedible) or disease (probably a health issue), I guess.

A few minutes more or less of pain, no matter how excruciating, is ethically relatively insignificant compared to the overall picture of ending a life.

Not so sure about that. Dying without pain isn't that bad. You just stop. It's worse for your friends and relatives than it is for you. /Pain/ is bad.

Making other people "stop", i.e. killing them, with or without pain, without their consent, is pretty much the worst thing you can do to them. It's not "not that bad".

Of course making people suffer is also pretty bad. Making someone suffer and killing them is of course worse than killing them without suffering. Like it's worse to shout insults at a girl while raping her than to rape her in a polite manner.

I'm in favor of euthanasia and abortion (obviously depending on the circumstances) because both can prevent unnecessary suffering, but I'm against capital punishment.

I'm for capital punishment. If a person actively sought to rape, molest, or murder another human being then they should be treated as a threat and not fed and clothed with free Cable TV and free weights using tax dollars from their future prey. Providing mercy to those without mercy doesn't sound right. 

 

[Glyph Reader]

I'm for capital punishment. If a person actively sought to rape, molest, or murder another human being then they should be treated as a threat and not fed and clothed with free Cable TV and free weights using tax dollars from their future prey. Providing mercy to those without mercy doesn't sound right. 

Playing devils advocate for the sake of devil's advocate, wouldn't that be the same as stooping to their level?  Does the context of the action matter, such as capital punishment, or are both the crime and the punishment equally wrong? 

-Glyph Reader

 

[klapse]

The State makes far too many mistakes (prosecuting the wrong people) for the death penalty (irreversible) to be ethical.

 

[Granitehead]

@_wb_: What rygD said. I completely agree.

And to add just a personal statement: I'm pretty sure if I have the choice between torture and death, I'll choose death unless I have some not strictly egoistical motives for wanting to survive, like getting revenge or keeping the torturer from doing the same to other people or sparing some (very) loved ones the pain of me dying (if I had a child below a certain age and maturity I certainly wouldn't choose death).

@Saber: When there is capital punishment, there are innocent people killed by the state. This is a fact. You can't change it no matter how good the legal system is. Errare humanum est. How do you cope with that?

Now when you have someone with a bomb in a school (filled with children) with the detonator in hand and finger on the first button of the 4 button launch code then I'm all for shooting that person in the head.

But when you have someone who committed a crime (say, had an argument with a friend who was carrying his child on his arms and shoved them off a roof, both dead. Or someone who planned and executed the murder of his father because the father beat him as a child and still oppressed him psychologically), then should that person really die? What good will that do society? Will it revive the dead? Rather not. Will it prevent them from murdering anyone in the future? Sure, but would they have murdered another person? Quite likely not. Will it keep other people from murdering? Statistics proof: Nope (go find your own statistics. Search for murder rate in different countries with capital punishment and without).

Edit: If I'd seen the previous two posts before submitting my own I might have phrased some stuff differently and referred to klapse's post, but I would say it's still valid.

Edit 2: I would just like to emphasize more than klapse that it's not "the state" which makes mistakes, it's /humans/ who make mistake. It doesn't matter for the argument how those humans are organized. It could as well be a corporation (we aren't that far yet) or a family (still a reality in some places of the world).

 

[Saber]

I'm for capital punishment. If a person actively sought to rape, molest, or murder another human being then they should be treated as a threat and not fed and clothed with free Cable TV and free weights using tax dollars from their future prey. Providing mercy to those without mercy doesn't sound right. 

Playing devils advocate for the sake of devil's advocate, wouldn't that be the same as stooping to their level?  Does the context of the action matter, such as capital punishment, or are both the crime and the punishment equally wrong? 

-Glyph Reader

You tell me. Is the punishment of the criminal(execution after trial) equal to the lives lost of the innocent? 

@Saber: When there is capital punishment, there are innocent people killed by the state. This is a fact. You can't change it no matter how good the legal system is. Errare humanum est. How do you cope with that?

Capital punishment in my opinion should be reserved for the most violent inmates. How you ask we determine which ones are which?  Oh I don't know, we'll just have to figure it out and believe the guy with the collection of severed heads of his neighbor's children in his living room isn't a good person.  

 

[EvilDragon]

Automatic message

This topic has been moved from "Pyra → General Talk" to "Off topic → Offtopic General talk".

 

[rygD]

Automatic message


This topic has been moved from "Pyra → General Talk" to "Off topic → Offtopic General talk".

bosbeetle was right.  ED, stop trying to control us! 

 

[FBnil]

On the other hands, once the blade is done, it's done...

Not true. There are records of heads falling upright, and following spectators with the eyes for minutes. As the head does not get oxigen, it suffocates and the grimases they make are unsettling.

 

[Granitehead]

@Saber: When there is capital punishment, there are innocent people killed by the state. This is a fact. You can't change it no matter how good the legal system is. Errare humanum est. How do you cope with that?

Capital punishment in my opinion should be reserved for the most violent inmates. How you ask we determine which ones are which?  Oh I don't know, we'll just have to figure it out and believe the guy with the collection of severed heads of his neighbor's children in his living room isn't a good person.

This seems like a very lazy cop out to my question. Unless when you wrote

I'm for capital punishment. If a person actively sought to rape, molest, or murder another human being then they should be treated as a threat and not fed and clothed with free Cable TV and free weights using tax dollars from their future prey.

you forgot to add"But it should be used extremely sparingly for only the worst and most clearly guilty criminals and is extremely overused today in the jurisdictions where capital punishment exists."

But this is not what your statement sounded like. Your statement appeared like you want capital punishment for everyone judged guilty of

1. any kind of rape

2. any kind of murder.

In that case my question remains to be answered.

 

[elwing]

anyone who thinks differently than me deserve punishment anyway... Thought Police!

 

[Saber]

@Saber: When there is capital punishment, there are innocent people killed by the state. This is a fact. You can't change it no matter how good the legal system is. Errare humanum est. How do you cope with that?

Capital punishment in my opinion should be reserved for the most violent inmates. How you ask we determine which ones are which?  Oh I don't know, we'll just have to figure it out and believe the guy with the collection of severed heads of his neighbor's children in his living room isn't a good person.

This seems like a very lazy cop out to my question. Unless when you wrote

I'm for capital punishment. If a person actively sought to rape, molest, or murder another human being then they should be treated as a threat and not fed and clothed with free Cable TV and free weights using tax dollars from their future prey.

you forgot to add
"But it should be used extremely sparingly for only the worst and most clearly guilty criminals and is extremely overused today in the jurisdictions where capital punishment exists."


But this is not what your statement sounded like. Your statement appeared like you want capital punishment for everyone judged guilty of


1. any kind of rape


2. any kind of murder.


In that case my question remains to be answered.

No, I think capital punishment is underused but yes I wouldn't want it for all criminals convicted of rape, molestation, and murder. I thought this was obvious when I said it but I forgot how literal and black and white with words some of you are here. I expected further thinking not reflexing from the reader. 

What's interesting is since people are always proclaimed fallible, this automatically throws any decision they can make out the window as if their competence can never be trusted in all conditions. It seems they see it as if few were innocently sentenced then the rest could be as well so no one can legitimately be called "evil". If only this denial protected us. I guess we'll just continue to wall most of the worst up for safekeeping until release.   

 

[Granitehead]

No, I think capital punishment is underused but yes I wouldn't want it for all criminals convicted of rape, molestation, and murder. I thought this was obvious when I said it but I forgot how literal and black and white with words some of you are here. I expected further thinking not reflexing from the reader. 

What's interesting is since people are always proclaimed fallible, this automatically throws any decision they can make out the window as if their competence can never be trusted in all conditions. It seems they see it as if few were innocently sentenced then the rest could be as well so no one can legitimately be called "evil". If only this denial protected us. I guess we'll just continue to wall most of the worst up for safekeeping until release.

So you still didn't answer my question (or maybe you did, but in the wrong way. But that would probably be interpreting too much into your words. See below).I can also phrase it as an accusation: So you are okay with killing some innocent people as long as the guilty are also killed.

And (but please reply to the other point first, not this one) I don't consider myself to do black and white logic at all, black and white logic is rather what I'd call the way /you/ are arguing.

I have absolutely no problem writing in metaphors and letting the reader guess what I mean either, but in discussions this is bad practice. Phrase yourself clearly. Don't take things for given.

 

[klapse]

Lets not forget capital punishment for infidelity. That's real important. And for selling drugs. Kill em all, yeah. Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill!

EDIT: But seriously, "a team of researchers has concluded that about 4.1 percent of criminal defendants who are sentenced to death are falsely convicted" http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/many-prisoners-on-death-row-are-wrongfully-convicted/

That is just fucking atrocious.

 

[Granitehead]

Lets not forget capital punishment for infidelity. That's real important. And for selling drugs. Kill em all, yeah. Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill! Kill!

And of course for apostasy.And non-liberal political opinions.

And working on Sundays.

But lets keep the discussion serious.

Edit: Yes it is.

 

[WizardStan]

That is just fucking atrocious.

Literally 4.1% higher than I am comfortable with.

using tax dollars from their future prey

I understand what you're getting at, but consider this a good place to start considering whether you want money to drive your opinion, and then begin doing further research. Ultimately it costs more to sentence someone to death than it does to incarcerate them for 25 years.Don't use taxes as an argument for capital punishment unless you're ok with that 4.1% going way up.

 

[rygD]

@Saber: When there is capital punishment, there are innocent people killed by the state. This is a fact. You can't change it no matter how good the legal system is. Errare humanum est. How do you cope with that?

Capital punishment in my opinion should be reserved for the most violent inmates. How you ask we determine which ones are which?  Oh I don't know, we'll just have to figure it out and believe the guy with the collection of severed heads of his neighbor's children in his living room isn't a good person.

This seems like a very lazy cop out to my question. Unless when you wrote

I'm for capital punishment. If a person actively sought to rape, molest, or murder another human being then they should be treated as a threat and not fed and clothed with free Cable TV and free weights using tax dollars from their future prey.

you forgot to add
"But it should be used extremely sparingly for only the worst and most clearly guilty criminals and is extremely overused today in the jurisdictions where capital punishment exists."


But this is not what your statement sounded like. Your statement appeared like you want capital punishment for everyone judged guilty of


1. any kind of rape


2. any kind of murder.


In that case my question remains to be answered.

If you use capital punishment for "lesser crimes" it might make humans a little more kind.  If people can be executed because they drive while talking on a fone I bet a lot less will do it.

Before people get carried away with what I said, it is only a little bit serious.  Sometimes (or maybe that should be "usually") I think Hannibal Lecter did it right.  I was going to go into this a bit more, and mention the code used by Dexter Morgan, but I really don't feel like debating this stuff.  Humans in general are pretty bad, and I often wish the population had stayed small.

So you are okay with killing some innocent people as long as the guilty are also killed.

Kill 'em all, including those not convicted of a crime.  Apply the same disclaimer from above here, I suppose.

Lets not forget capital punishment for infidelity. That's real important. And for selling drugs. Kill em all, yeah. Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill!

Jaywalkers should be shot on sight.  Little white lies should result in little white mounds of bones.

EDIT: But seriously, "a team of researchers has concluded that about 4.1 percent of criminal defendants who are sentenced to death are falsely convicted" http://www.scientifi...ully-convicted/  

That is just fucking atrocious.

Compared to what?  Have you seen what humans as a whole do to everything they encounter?  THAT is atrocious.  Then they try to justify or ignore it, and everyone pretends it is ok, which is even worse.  "Oh, but I didn't do these bad things."  Chances are your daily routines make use of the things I am talking about.

 

[Saber]

Let me share with all of you something I was told in person about what happened one night a few years back. Judge for yourself the authenticity of this account. I have no way to prove it really happened though. 

A couple of years ago a friend of mine had his brother over for a visit. This was the first and only time I’d ever meet him but he was a rather large, rugged sort of fellow. Quiet yet intimidating to look at. Well, after a time, he started talking about a job he had worked in his travels along a route in the U.S.. 

He began with how his traveling companion and him along with others in his work group witnessed a young girl dragged to the center of an open parking lot by two men. It turned out this teenager worked in a local gift shop that had just closed up for the night. With dozens of work weary onlookers shadowed a little ways distance on the sidelines, these two men brutally raped this girl in plain sight. That’s the nice way of putting it for, without being too graphic here and beyond all the blood, it was enough to also rip her jaw away from her face. 

Now you are all wondering why didn’t someone do something to stop this? Well, my friend’s brother did try to but, as he had the crowbar in hand, his work companion gripped his arm firmly and told him to sit still for unbeknownst to him at the time, those two monsters(okay to call them that?) had armed companions who were filming the act. He was later told his sudden movement to attempt to stop the "show" had almost got them killed for his sudden stirring had not gone unnoticed. With tears in his eyes, my friend’s brother, this bear of a man, couldn’t settle his nerves to stop shaking from the tale he had told us. 

Yes, I agree if 4.1% of the people executed are found innocent later on then 4.1% is too much and the system should be overhauled to bring this figure to nil, but I also believe it isn’t worth keeping nightmares of the kind described above around when the price is more victims, which are far more precious than any ancillary(over incarceration) costs associated with indefinitely removing those who would harm them from this world. 

No, I do not agree that human beings have an innate evil about them or that most of them do evil liberally. What I believe is there are bad people and there are good ones, and I’d like to think the latter have the lion’s share of humanity’s pool. 

Enjoy your discussion people.    

 

 

[Tenka]

Quick response to Saber's rape and stuff story above, just to their moral really.  I'll summarize it as "People have done really REALLY bad stuff and so I think they should be killed in order to stop them from doing more bad stuff."

Your point is moot if there are alternate ways of preventing this behavior than killing those people.  Because I'm simple like this, it brings to my mind people beating dogs for peeing in their house or biting them or something.  It's completely subjective just how bad the dog's crime was, that's up to each and everyone personally, but the reasoning for beating the dog being "they bit me REALLY hard, they were REALLY bad" is moot if the effect of beating the dog isn't as efficient a means of changing the dog as putting them in a more comfortable environment and using positive reinforcement training.  "You guys don't know what you're talking about because you've never seen such a bad dog.  I saw this one bite off a kid's hand!"  Scary stories like this offer no evidence that any preventative method works, besides that whichever one was in place obviously didn't.

 

[rygD]

I had a dog bite me in the face when I was very young.  I still think the value of the life of one bad dog is greater than the lives of a handful of humans.