GPS, compass, etc

[Eddward]

From https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/ t looks like you need the 4G versio to get the gps and other extra sensors. (Stop me here if I'm wrong.)

Do you need to have a sim card to use the non-phone/non-cell network features? (Like, GPS, compass, barometer, etc)

Do you need to have the cellular radio even on?

Sorry if these are stupid questions or if I didn't google enough.

 

[ible]

yes, you need the 4G model to have these other sensors.

i'm not an expert on the modem stuff, but i think you should be able to use GPS/compass without the cellular stuff (sim in or radio on). someone more knowledgeable will surely refute or corroborate this.

 

[slaeshjag]

The GPS module is built into the 4G module. I doubt you need an active sim card in it to use GPS.

The other sensors are completely separate from the 4G module and should work fine with the entire 4G module switched off.

 

[the_marshal]

I would also think using the GPS on the mobile chip would work without SIM card. That being said unless somebody tests it or go through the technical doc, it might be difficult to confirm.

I guess another question is how well the GPS will work without Mobile network connectivity. Most phone Geo-localization use a combination of Mobile network and GSM data (as well as nearby Wifi points...) to get your position quicker/ more accurately.

I remember some bad experience with my old Nokia N900. While you could turn on the GPS without any SIM card/ network coverage, it would struggle to get the initial GPS fix (often if was impossible if inside a city). I think those where pretty specific issue down to the hardware and/or software (most likely software from what I remember reading on form but it was never clear to me).

Normally modern GPS can be made sensitive enough to get a fix inside a city. And hopefully the one in the Pyra works properly. As always it might only be depended on the software.

Android/iOS likely have some pretty intelligent geo-localization that can use multiple data source (GPS, A-GPS, Glosnav, Wifi AP info, Mobile network). That can even include barometer input to correct GPS reading (better height approximation from what I understand).

 

[Eddward]

Most phone Geo-localization use a combination of Mobile network and GSM data (as well as nearby Wifi points...) to get your position quicker/ more accurately.

I guess I had hoped/assumed the GPS could work as well as my Garmin.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

I guess I had hoped/assumed the GPS could work as well as my Garmin.

It very well might, we don't know yet.

 

[Agricola]

As you can see in the datasheet of the PLS8-E, you don't need a SIM to use the GPS (Page 374: AT^SGPSC).
That datasheet is, by the way, the newer version of this one which was often spread around these boards. I searched for a newer version as this doesn't contain any SMS AT commands, but GPS can also just be seen on the newer documentation. Really cool read if you're into it! I didn't know before that there's a list of available emergency numbers stored in the SIM so you can't call 110 in Germany if you have a foreign SIM, but if you don't use any SIM at all, you can call whichever emergency number you want.
(Sorry for OT)

 

[Caine]

Good questions. I assume the GPS will work without SIM.

 

[Agricola]

I guess I had hoped/assumed the GPS could work as well as my Garmin.

There's a huge software difference between GPS on a Garmin and a smartphone: When your Garmin is activated, it connects to satellites all the time while a smartphone, even if you activate its GPS in the OS, just connects when a task needs it. This is done to save energy. Especially because the triangulation is a lot more accurate when you've been connected to multiple satellites for a few seconds, this can make the accuracy go down a lot. To circumvent this, Google Maps uses the W-LAN connections that your smartphone can receive to get more short-term accuracy if you just started the programm. That's not too great for data privacy protection, as it lays down all the networks near you on a map and stores it on a server. When your GPS connection gets more accurate, you support the servers accuracy by sending your position and all the networks near you to Google.

So, in short, if you don't want to use Google Maps and Android, you won't get a lot of accuracy out of your Pyra if you use it's GPS like a smartphone does. However, the AT command datasheet that I posted before lists 3 modes the PLS8-E's built in GPS can use (Page 326/327: <AntVal>), one to deactivate it completely, one to use it just when a programm requests it and one to connect it to satellites all the time like a Garmin. As the battery of the Pyra is quite big, you may be able to use this third mode for a lot longer than most smartphones, and as it also does support GLONASS (aka Russian GPS), it should work quite well (more available satellites = more accuracy), assuming we get good software that can use the information and the antenna is not completely broken.

tl;dr: The Pyra can work like a Garmin while smartphones mostly don't. The PLS8-E supports both.

 

[Eddward]

@Agricola. Thanks for the good info. So it sounds like the hardware will allow it and it might just be a question of software. With a nomarl debian install, I assume I'll be able to get something to work.

Based on current conversations in preorder thread, it sounds like the PLS8-E is the EU version. Think the US version would be different? I found the command sheet you mentioned AntVal. I couldn't find a similar sheet for the PLS8-US.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

@Agricola. Thanks for the good info. So it sounds like the hardware will allow it and it might just be a question of software. With a nomarl debian install, I assume I'll be able to get something to work.

Based on current conversations in preorder thread, it sounds like the PLS8-E is the EU version. Think the US version would be different? I found the command sheet you mentioned AntVal. I couldn't find a similar sheet for the PLS8-US.

From what I understand, they are identical except for the mobile phone frequencies they connect to.

 

[Agricola]

Thanks for the good info. So it sounds like the hardware will allow it and it might just be a question of software. With a nomarl debian install, I assume I'll be able to get something to work.

I'm not sure if this can just be done with normal software from the Debian ARM repository as I have no idea how the LTE chip is connected to the rest of the system. Nomally, those chips are wired up via USB or PCIe to notebooks, and even then it's rare to use them with Linux. But we'll know more when the prototypes get in the hands of developers, which will hopefully happen before the preorders end.

Based on current conversations in preorder thread, it sounds like the PLS8-E is the EU version. Think the US version would be different? I found the command sheet you mentioned AntVal. I couldn't find a similar sheet for the PLS8-US.

You are correct about the PLS8-US being the US version, the PLS8-E is pretty much a "rest of the world" version because the whole world except for the United States agreed on using specific frequencies for mobile phones, but I can sadly only assume that it won't be different concerning GPS/Glonass, this official sales brochure says that all PLS8 versions support it, but to get the specific AT command list, you have to be a business partner of the manufacturer Gemalto (downloadable here if you are by any chance). In fact, even the versions I linked before were just leaked, there's a big fat "Confidential" on the bottom of each page.
I sadly also can't find any similar documents for the PLS8-US, but as the only difference seems to be the phone frequencies, the producer would be crazy for changing the AT commands for the US units.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

but to get the specific AT command list, you have to be a business partner of the manufacturer Gemalto (downloadable here if you are by any chance). In fact, even the versions I linked before were just leaked, there's a big fat "Confidential" on the bottom of each page.

This is very bad, as all Pyra customers need to know those commands to interact with their modems!

 

[Agricola]

This is very bad, as all Pyra customers need to know those commands to interact with their modems!

I just hope ED can get these papers. Most commands are very similar/the same to other mobile chips (there's a standardized basic command set for them), Nikolaus has done a great job supporting his customers abridged command lists of similar ones (his other phones also use Gemalto products) and theoretically there just has to be one person to write good phone software for the Pyra.
The longer I read these papers, the more I'm actually interested in doing this myself - no promises though. There are some really cool things you can do if you can use all of the commands that are not available on normal phones. I think I'm going to read the terms and policies on the Gemalto website to find out what exactly has to be done to download these documents later this week to confirm that the GPS commands are the same on the PLS8-US.

 

[ashcloud]

What is all the fuss about this? You can just create an account on their site, log in and download the datasheets.

 

[WizardStan]

What is all the fuss about this? You can just create an account on their site, log in and download the datasheets.

You need to be approved. Unless that's changed in the last several months since I tried. I will try again.

edit: oh... well... that was easy.
edit edit: and of course the E version for completeness
edit edit edit: these documents seem to be very incomplete, missing information on features I know are there. Fortunately, Gemalto made everything forwards compatible and the documentation for the PHS8 is much more robust.

 

[FBnil]

What is all the fuss about this? You can just create an account on their site, log in and download the datasheets.

The problem is that, for all Pyra users to use it, we would need to write a program that creates a user, logs in, and download the datasheet, accept their EULA. (much like downloading the Windows fonts on Linux).
It's the words, not the availability.

 

[Agricola]

The problem is that, for all Pyra users to use it, we would need to write a program that creates a user, logs in, and download the datasheet, accept their EULA. (much like downloading the Windows fonts on Linux).
It's the words, not the availability.

No, not if you make closed source software. I think.
Edit: Just chill, I'll look if I can talk to a German lawyer and ED in the next couple of days.
[doublepost=1462361290,1462360159][/doublepost]

You need to be approved. Unless that's changed in the last several months since I tried. I will try again.

edit: oh... well... that was easy.

You don't seem to get my point: The terms and policies of that website are not the stupid, copied thing you should just agree on and do whatever you want. It's a business network, not an iTunes Update. They define everything you can download there as confidential documentation you are not allowed to discuss outside of there boundaries. By producing Open Source Software with it, you directly share this information, which can get quite messy for you, your software and in the worst case OpenPandora GmbH, who probably are officially allowed to get this information and use it, but if they distribute your "stolen" program (like through a repo) this could be terminated. Because of all this legal bullshit, I held back from even getting an account there and won't do anything before I haven't talked to a lawyer and/or ED.

 

[WizardStan]

There's nothing I can see in their EULA saying users of software, even open source software, need to agree to anything. There's even example scripts with very specific purposes (ie, programs I guess) littered all throughout their knowledge base and forum that aren't behind any EULA at all, most findable via Google even, existing with Gemalto's blessing. The only thing you need to agree to is to download the documentation: of course you can't share and discuss it, it is copyright protected.
The problem I was having, when I first tried (which is apparently years ago, not months, curse my inability to measure the passage of time), was that you needed to tell them what you were doing and be approved in order to get the documentation. I was not approved. They've apparently gotten past that, and now anyone is free to look at the technical specs, all you need is a login.
But if you want to have a lawyer look it over go right ahead, it doesn't hurt to be sure.

 

[levi]

FWIW, in the last big company I worked for, everything you wrote was confidential by default. If you really didn't want it spread around you marked it 'secret' (and there was a level above that I think, but I never used it, and never read anything under it). That doesn't affect the legal position that you've signed a contract to download it, and further propagating it would be breach of that contract, but just because they marked it as such and made you sign a contract doesn't automatically mean they wouldn't want to help us.

Edit: Is Wizardstan saying the license doesn't restrict our use? As far as I know, 'confidential' on its own doesn't have much legal standing if there's nothing else stopping you using it as you wish, but IANAL.

Edit2: Ah, you're discussing software derived from the documentation. I'd be very surprised if they sent lawyers after us for that, since we'd be helping make their hardware more usable, but you'd have to check the fine print to see if it exerts any such restrictions for yourself if you're unsure.