Got Psp - But Waiting For Craiginator!

[lithium]

Hello all. long time reader, first time poster.

Just thought I'd swing in and say hi. As a long time gamer (well over 25 years now) I've lived through the euphoric days of early arcade games and must admit having an arcade in your hand brings me a nostalgic tear every time. About 2 years ago when the PSP was initially launched I picked one up after hearing it could be software hacked to run unsigned code (and therefore emulators).

Although there's been a constantly running battle with Sony in regards to software and allowance of running unsigned code, I stuck with it because for a handheld, the PSP packs a hell of a punch and the emulators for a lot of the older systems is quite crisp and clean.

About a year ago I came across an article which discussed handhelds for old school emulation and came across the GPx. When I read about an open platform hand held my heart was instantly in my throat as I knew it would also mean more mature and stable emulators. However, my joy was short lived when i compared the specs of the two machines (GPx and PSP). The GPx just didn't stack up.

Now more recently the F200 was ready to roll and I admit the addition of the stylus is absolute GOLD - there's potential there that's very obvious, even in the old school emulation department.

Imagine my disappointment when I read the spec sheet hadn't changed and that it was still running at about 2/3 the power of a standard PSP.

So I've been continuing to go with the PSP until I recently came across the next generation of the GPx handheld - the 'craiginator'.

I have to admit this looks to be the first handheld in the series that will definitely push me to move across. If it's got the power and punch to take out the PSP with a decent battery and stylus with an open software platform, then you have a PSP killer in my books and I'll be lining up to buy one.

A quick question though - what actual clock speed can we expect out of the new system?

Just looking at the wiki it's not mentioning much in the way of raw speed and I'd be very keen to see what's it going to deliver. An overclocked PSP delivers 333mhz and it's definitely the fastest of the current generation of handhelds out there and as we all know, Emulators never say no to more raw power!

The only downside will be power consumption, but if you can get at least 4 hours out of a single charge I'm going to be delighted.

I have my PSP sitting in a charging cradle on my desk at work and one at home. I never have to swap out batteries and I really value this convenience. This is one of the other main reasons why i can't commit to the current generation GPx handheld.

So for the moment, whilst the GPX-F200 looks very pretty and the feature additions perfect, I admit I'm going to have to stick with the PSP until the new model launches next year. I just don't see any point in 'upgrading' at this particular stage.

I have a lot of friends here at work who also have a PSP and share a similar view. Most of us are old schoolers and appreciate solid emulation - the more we can emulate cleanly and smoothly on a handheld, the bigger the kudos with us and if the Craiginator can really outperform the PSP solidly, we'll all switch over quicker than you can blink!

So congrats to the Developers for listening to the consumers on what they want and roll on 2008...

Can't wait for the Craiginator!!!

Cheers

 

[DaveC]

Hello all. long time reader, first time poster.
About a year ago I came across an article which discussed handhelds for old school emulation and came across the GPx. When I read about an open platform hand held my heart was instantly in my throat as I knew it would also mean more mature and stable emulators. However, my joy was short lived when i compared the specs of the two machines (GPx and PSP). The GPx just didn't stack up.

I have a lot of friends here at work who also have a PSP and share a similar view. Most of us are old schoolers and appreciate solid emulation - the more we can emulate cleanly and smoothly on a handheld, the bigger the kudos with us and if the Craiginator can really outperform the PSP solidly, we'll all switch over quicker than you can blink!

So congrats to the Developers for listening to the consumers on what they want and roll on 2008...

Can't wait for the Craiginator!!!

Cheers

If you just compare specs yeah the PSP wins. Specs aren't everything. Most of the emulators on the GP2X are more optimised to run well on the GP2X. Many emus on the PSP aren't as optimised, so that extra power is used up running the less optimised code.

If you look what actually runs on both it is a different story. Most emus other than PSX and GBA run just as well on the GP2X if not better than on the PSP. You mention "old school" and the current GP2X is better suited for that regardless of power. The screen resolution matches much better on the GP2X which means you can run most emus at their native 1:1 resolution and still have a decent image size (larger than PSP at 1:1). On the PSP you get that blurry fractionally scaled image to fit that odd vertical res resulting in a loss of contrast and detail. Then when the screen moves you also get that ghosting. The GP2X is smooth right now for old school games, more power isn't going to make much difference for those.

The Craiginator will be powerful. We don't know yet how the controls will suit the "old school" stuff you mention as we don't know what sort of digital controls there will or will not be (we only know it has analog right now). Hopefully we will see soon.

It may still be worthwhile to get a GP2X cheap from ebay now until the Craiginator comes out. GP2Xs are dirt cheap used.

 

[lithium]

Certainly sounds like a plan and thanks for the feedback.

Only concern other than that I have is the battery issue. I have to admit the concept of rechargable AAs for a power source isn't really inspiring, I really don't like the idea of having to put batteries into a recharger every few hours.

That said, It might not be THAT bad and I really am just nit picking at this point.

The question for me is do I stick with the PSP and put up with slightly less optimised code until the Craig hits, or do I buy a GPx2 100 or the upcoming 200?

I have to admit that whilst the MAME emus on the PSP are lacking, the rest are pretty damn solid. The SNES EMU is slightly underpar in terms of raw speed and the Amiga EMU is still very slow as well, but other Emulators (especially ones done by the coder NJ) really are top notch and full speed.

Tough choice really, isn't it?

 

[namco]

QUOTE
That said, It might not be THAT bad and I really am just nit picking at this point.



Yes you are. Buying AA batteries isn't too bad, esp if you get the high drain batteries. Search on ebay for 2800mah batteries and you'll find they sell them for about £15 for 24 batteries. 2800's give me about 4 hours gaming, alternatively you can get a PSU.

QUOTE
The question for me is do I stick with the PSP and put up with slightly less optimised code until the Craig hits, or do I buy a GPx2 100 or the upcoming 200?


If you want to "old" gp2x, ie the F100, then I'd get a MK II version as the joystick has been improved.

QUOTE
I have to admit that whilst the MAME emus on the PSP are lacking, the rest are pretty damn solid. The SNES EMU is slightly underpar in terms of raw speed and the Amiga EMU is still very slow as well, but other Emulators (especially ones done by the coder NJ) really are top notch and full speed.


I'm not sure about the SNES emu difference over here but there was an article by a PSP owner showing the diffferences. As for the Amiga emulator, well I can tell you as of now, I can run about 90% of games, full speed, at an overclock of 225mhz!

 

[dosteridge]

I have a gp2x and a psp, and davec is spot on with his reply.

I am with you on the battery point, but it really is nothing to have 2 in the 2x whilst 2 are on charge.

My son wants a 2x, so I plan on getting him a f200 for christmas, which I can play when he goes to bed until the 'craiginator' arrives.

I was over the moon when he said he wanted the new 2x, perfect reason for the wife to buy one without complaining

 

[javaJake]

Wasn't there an excellent article done recently on GP2X vs. PSP in terms of emulation? Someone did a complete list of consoles and their emulation speeds, etc., on the GP2X and PSP...

 

[DaveC]

Certainly sounds like a plan and thanks for the feedback.

Only concern other than that I have is the battery issue. I have to admit the concept of rechargable AAs for a power source isn't really inspiring, I really don't like the idea of having to put batteries into a recharger every few hours.

That said, It might not be THAT bad and I really am just nit picking at this point.

The question for me is do I stick with the PSP and put up with slightly less optimised code until the Craig hits, or do I buy a GPx2 100 or the upcoming 200?

I have to admit that whilst the MAME emus on the PSP are lacking, the rest are pretty damn solid. The SNES EMU is slightly underpar in terms of raw speed and the Amiga EMU is still very slow as well, but other Emulators (especially ones done by the coder NJ) really are top notch and full speed.

Tough choice really, isn't it?

Well there ARE some advantages for AA batteries. For one thing if you are out and you run out of juice, a pack of batteries to keep you going are only a drug store away. With custom ones you are out until you can get to a charger. Sure you can swap out custom batteries on the PSP too, but then you are doing the dreaded and arduous task of changing a battery Then there is the fact that custom batteries are great, until they stop making them. When the battery is discontinued you have a nice and pretty, but worthless, brick. While that is not too much of a worry with the PSP as Sony won't be going anywhere anytime soon, it is a concern for devices made by smaller companies. Too many devices with special batteries have been orphaned by their makers. This is a concern for niche systems like this, I am glad that I have piece of mind knowing I will always be able to use my GP2X no matter what happens to its maker. An antique dealer will still be able to fire up a GP2X in 50 years, try getting a battery for the PSP then

It seems that the emus that are rough on the PSP are the same ones that are rough on the GP2X. SNES can be slow with many games, and Amiga is way too choppy on the GP2X too. Other emus are top notch such as Neo Geo, CPS2, MAME, Genesis, NES though. Neo Geo and Genesis match the GP2X screen res almost perfect at 1:1 too, they look sharper than they do on the PSP when you are displaying the same image size. There are alot of systems that run very well on the GP2X such as Atari 2600, Atari 800, Atari 5200, C-64, Atari-ST, GB/GBC/ SMS, Atari Lynx, ColecoVision etc. I do have a PSP too but I don't use it for emus, I probably would if I liked PSX more though.

By the way look at the picture in my sig called "GP2X screenshot gallery" it will give you an idea of how stuff looks. I took the pictures right off of the screen with a camera so it looks sharper in real life though. The black borders show the actual screen edges relative to the game image at 1:1. I ran the emus unscaled and 1:1 as they look better. Stretching is available too if you don't mind the artifacts.

 

[KeyboardCommando]

Just looking at the wiki it's not mentioning much in the way of raw speed and I'd be very keen to see what's it going to deliver. An overclocked PSP delivers 333mhz and it's definitely the fastest of the current generation of handhelds out there and as we all know, Emulators never say no to more raw power!

Seems my old account has been doomed to some strange state of limbo wherein it believes I'm suspended until 14 August 2007. Needless to say it's now, um, October. Sheer boredom has prompted me to deal with it now rather than .. 2 months ago. Maybe someone could look into that. Anyway.

I feel it necessary to mention that raw clock speed is not indicative of performance when compared across multiple microarchitectures. For example, if you compare 2 ARM9 processors at 200 and 300 MHz, the 300 MHz unit will yield more raw performance given an identical platform to work within. However, you're comparing a 200 MHz ARM9 to a 333 MHz MIPS-architecture processor-- similar performance but not identical. You also have to take into account other factors, such as processor cache, the bus the CPU is placed on, and architectural components such as presence/absence of an FPU, VFPU, etc.

Further complicating matters, much of emulation is graphical, rather than a matter of raw computation-- giving the PSP an automatic advantage due to its true hardware graphics accelerator. In comparison, the GP2X relies on software graphics in most applications with only rudimentary hardware acceleration. If the GP2X's successor provides a true 2D/3D acceleration block, as it appears it will, the CPU will be less burdened by these tasks, which would result in an automatic performance boost even at the same raw clock speed. I could go on and on about memory bottlenecks but you get the point.

Oh, and what's with this "Craiginator" business.. Craig is a liason to a company developing a gaming device, not some godlike entity capable of concieving, designing, building and marketing a console by himself. He's one of a few people who provide information to the community regarding its development, but even "Mystery Handheld" seems more appropriate than "Craiginator". (Come on, Craig isn't even a verb.)

 

[Exophase]

However, you're comparing a 200 MHz ARM9 to a 333 MHz MIPS-architecture processor-- similar performance but not identical.

Yeah, you wish. Every time you make CPU comparisons I cry.

Also, craig isn't a "liason to a company".. whatever you said. I don't know where you even get this stuff. I probably can't say everything here but suffice it to say, craigix is in charge of this project. You can deny it all you want but no matter how much you hate him that won't change this fact.

 

[KeyboardCommando]

OK, so your argument is that, tick for tick, every CPU architecture is identical. That's why a Core 2 Duo at 2.4 GHz outperforms a 2.4 GHz Athlon 64 X2, and a 2.4 GHz Athlon 64 X2 outperforms a 2.4 GHz Pentium-D. Or why a 400 MHz XScale struggles to outperform a 200 MHz ARM9 in the vast majority of tasks. A stunning argument to be certain.

No indication given on this forum has indicated anything but that Craig is giving ideas to, and acting as a liason to the community for, a third party company who is physically producing the handheld in question. This could very well be incorrect. I have very low expectations for any machine Craig heads the design of, however. Particularly after his remarks about ... CPU architecture.

You see, Craig told me this little tale about how whatever handheld GPH made to replace the GP2X (whose very existance would be, or not be, necessitated by winter sales figures.. sound familiar?), were it up to him would have the fastest raw CPU clockrate possible, and no 2D/3D acceleration of any form to cost further money. According to him, all that mattered was big numbers, because big numbers sell handhelds. The analogy he made was to truck engines-- everyone just wants the big engine because it's the most effective to market to a lowest common denominator.

And why would clock speed matter before anything else, even though history has proven that the console with the most well-rounded featureset typically prevails over the one with the most powerful processor and other cut corners to make up for the CPU's cost? Because "no one would ever use" a 2D/3D accelerator. That's right, no programmer on this forum has any idea how to utilize complex hardware to its limits! :rolleyes:

I can't blame Craig for thinking like a businessman. But I can blame anyone who thinks buying a handheld from GPH/Craig is a religious experience or an 'investment in homebrew/the community/linux/communism/freedom/fighting the man/freeing tibet/recycling/giving a hoot/not polluting/whatever'.

 

[EvilDragon]

Seems my old account has been doomed to some strange state of limbo wherein it believes I'm suspended until 14 August 2007. Needless to say it's now, um, October. Sheer boredom has prompted me to deal with it now rather than .. 2 months ago. Maybe someone could look into that. Anyway.

Hm, maybe it has been doomed as we did ban you completely a while ago, right Epicenter?
And please don't try to tell me you're not Epicenter... I'm a mod, I have magical IP-Lookup powers... and strangely some posts of KeyboardCommando and Epicenter turned out from the same IP...

You know, ban means ban, right?
We had a lot of talk in the moderators section of the board, and we decided the ban.

I doubt a person who can not understand the simple meaning of the ban has a lot of experience with good hardware, eh?

BTW: There's no mystery company, sorry to burst your bubble. Did you think Sony bought us?

 

[Exophase]

OK, so your argument is that, tick for tick, every CPU architecture is identical. That's why a Core 2 Duo at 2.4 GHz outperforms a 2.4 GHz Athlon 64 X2, and a 2.4 GHz Athlon 64 X2 outperforms a 2.4 GHz Pentium-D.

Okay, don't give me that newb "mhz is a myth look at pcs lol" argument. Just because I said you were wrong doesn't mean that I said all architectures perform similarly at the same clock speed.

Or why a 400 MHz XScale struggles to outperform a 200 MHz ARM9 in the vast majority of tasks. A stunning argument to be certain.

Yeah, this crap again too. You can't prove that at the CPU level they're that much different, clock for clock, certainly nothing in the cycle timings/block diagrams support this. Obviously there are other factors which would affect benchmarks.

FACT: You don't have a technical argument for why SINGLE ISSUE ARM (ie, typically one instruction per clock) is so much superior (over 50%!) to SINGLE ISSUE MIPS (ie, typically one instruction per clock too). I made a decent one on these boards about why they're not much off, and zomg testing on say GP2X vs PSP will back this up. So try something better than "but it's true when I compare these other platforms!", okay?

No indication given on this forum has indicated anything but that Craig is giving ideas to, and acting as a liason to the community for, a third party company who is physically producing the handheld in question.

On the contrary, no indication has been given of a third party at all. I like how you need proof that something ISN'T true to assume it.

This could very well be incorrect.

And is.

I have very low expectations for any machine Craig heads the design of, however. Particularly after his remarks about ... CPU architecture.

You see, Craig told me this little tale about how whatever handheld GPH made to replace the GP2X (whose very existance would be, or not be, necessitated by winter sales figures.. sound familiar?), were it up to him would have the fastest raw CPU clockrate possible, and no 2D/3D acceleration of any form to cost further money. According to him, all that mattered was big numbers, because big numbers sell handhelds. The analogy he made was to truck engines-- everyone just wants the big engine because it's the most effective to market to a lowest common denominator.

And why would clock speed matter before anything else, even though history has proven that the console with the most well-rounded featureset typically prevails over the one with the most powerful processor and other cut corners to make up for the CPU's cost? Because "no one would ever use" a 2D/3D accelerator. That's right, no programmer on this forum has any idea how to utilize complex hardware to its limits! :rolleyes:

I can't blame Craig for thinking like a businessman. But I can blame anyone who thinks buying a handheld from GPH/Craig is a religious experience or an 'investment in homebrew/the community/linux/communism/freedom/fighting the man/freeing tibet/recycling/giving a hoot/not polluting/whatever'.

Yeah, okay, everyone knows you hate craig, etc. However he is definitely trying to get good hardware on this. That's why Squidge is actually performing tests. You can rag on GP2X all you want but craig didn't design GP2X, and honestly, I'm sure he was misled too, although not nearly as much as you THINK you were. Hate GPH, not their distributors.

No one thinks it's a religious experience, they're just excited.

 

[housemonkey]

Hmm. Without getting into the whole PSP vs. GP2X thing (I own and like both systems for different things) I must say the batteries are a plus on the GP2X from my point of view.

One of the fist things I did when I got my PSP was buy a wall charger and extra battery so that one could charge while I play. Honestly, that is one of the aspects of the GP2X that I though edged out the PSP and DS in the convenience department. When I can pick up a charger and a dozen high capacity batteries at Costco for the same price or less than the cost of a secondary battery for the PSP it just seems like a more sensible way to go.

 

[MiL0]

I have all 3 handhelds now (GP2X, DS and PSP) and I realise this isn't gonna go down very well but the GP2X is my least favourite of the three at the moment. I only got a PSP about a month ago pretty much because of what DaveC has said countless times on this forum; that the PSP screen isn't suited to playing most emulated games because of the stretching involved. However, once the PSP Slim came out and at the price I got it for I couldn't resist... PSX games perfectly emulated on my HDTV! And I really wish I got the PSP instead of the GP2X. Here's why:

The screen: Yeah, the GP2X can do better 1:1 nonstetched images but when you stretch an image on the PSP screen is it really that bad? In my opinion, DEFINITELY not! I was expecting the worst after everything DaveC has said and it honestly isn't that bad. At least its got a decent viewing angle... on my GP2X it looks like GPH put the screen in upside down!! The viewing angle is optimal when you hold the GP2X at a -20 degree angle to your face - ridiculous!

The controls: I got my GP2X mk2 d-pad modded and while this makes things comparable to the PSP d-pad why the hell should I have to pay extra money to fix something that is absolutely unuseable in its original factory form. And yeah the analogue nub on the PSP is pretty poor but at least its there - the GP2X doesn't have anything like that.

The emulators/homebrew: Okay, so this is supposed to be the GP2X's strong point. Unless something miraculous has happened in the past 6 months then again, the GP2X loses out. I can play very playable GBA, PSX, SNES, Genesis, Amiga, CPS1/2 and MAME emulators with virtually no problems at all. The GP2X's small fps advantages on some of those emulators doesn't compare to the PSP's variety of playable emulators. And we're talking about VERY small fps differences imo. GBA, PSX, Amiga and SNES imo are better on the PSP. MAME and perhaps CPS1/2 are better on the GP2X. But honestly, I'd rather just use the PSP versions for conviences-sake.

The batteries - why some of you think that AA batteries are a good idea is beyond me!! Are you likely to be using your GP2X in 50 years as DaveC said earlier?! No of course not - the same as you don't use a Spectrum +2 now! Okay, so my batteries die and I can go to the shop and buy some spares - great. Except these spares aren't 2800mah recharchables; they're some crappy alkalines that are gonna give you 20 minutes of gameplay. I travel a LOT and I very rarely take a journey that's longer than 5 hours. If I do, I'll take my DS or read a book! For me personally, the AA battery decision is one of the weakest points of the GP2X.

Build quality: Compared to the PSP and DS, the GP2X feels very cheap. I realise it's not made by a massive company with enormous R&D funds but come on! Another few weeks on the drawing board and the GP2X could have 'felt' much better - I doubt it would have cost too much more either.

I realise this is all totally my opinion and hardly any of you guys will agree with me but please bare in mind that I own all 3 and just like most of you I am/was a pretty hardcore fan of the GP2X when I got it. Having said that, the GP2X just doesn't get a look in these days for me. The one true advantage it had was that it could natively play DiVX's but again, I'd rather just convert them to a Sony format and watch them on the PSP for conviences-sake (by that I mean, I would rather spend the time re-encoding the video so that I can just take one handheld with me).

About me: I'm originally from the UK but I currently live in Thailand. For the past 3 years I've been working, travelling and playing videogames(!) in over 15 countries around SE Asia and Australia.

 

[DaveC]

The screen: Yeah, the GP2X can do better 1:1 nonstetched images but when you stretch an image on the PSP screen is it really that bad? In my opinion, DEFINITELY not! I was expecting the worst after everything DaveC has said and it honestly isn't that bad.

Well I guess you don't mind blurry distorted images with the details all smeared out. Some of us may not like that. I can't see how anyone actually thinks blurry images with reduced contrast/detail actually look good. And after all that stretching and blurring you get an image that is the same size as it is on the GP2X if you keep the aspect correct, it isn't even bigger. The PSP is a good system for 3D, but emulators on it look like shit. I have a PSP too and tried all of those you mentioned except PSX. The blurry screen due to the stretching is bad enough, then the image moves and many of the colors leave trails and shift hue, at least on the old version PSP, ick! While the viewing angle on the GP2X is more fidgety, The PSP screen is no gem either

 

[housemonkey]

Meh. The ghosting is bad on ceratain games to be sure, but I think you are over blowing the the stretching aspect to make your point.

I slightly prefer the GP2X for certain games, but others look better on the crisp screen.

 

[DaveC]

Meh. The ghosting is bad on ceratain games to be sure, but I think you are over blowing the the stretching aspect to make your point.

I slightly prefer the GP2X for certain games, but others look better on the crisp screen.

How is it "crisper" on the PSP if it is blurred out with the bi-linear filter? Filtering is not "crisper" it is the opposite. There are stretching routeens that, while not as sharp as 1:1, look ok. Unfortunatly bi-linear filtering like used on the PSP for emus is not one of those. It just takes everything and makes fuzzy. I guess they use it because it comes "free" with the hardware and it is easy to use.

 

[housemonkey]

I have done side by side comaprisons myself and cripser simply means better looking on the PSP screen IMO. Nothing tech about that.

If you think it looks fuzy or washed out then okay. I frankly do not see it, and certainly not to the extent that you are trying to imply.

Like I said, ghosting on the PSP is a probem, and with ceratin games it will make me play the same thing on the GP2X instead. But I like the color saturation and screen general screen (aside from the ghosting obviously) better on the PSP.

Now maybe if I had an MK2 I would change that opinion somewhat, but I still dont see how it would worsen the PSP screen.

I have done side by side comparisons myself and crisper simply means better looking on the PSP screen IMO. Nothing tech about that.

If you think it looks fuzzy or washed out then okay. I frankly do not see it, and certainly not to the extent that you are trying to imply.

Like I said, ghosting on the PSP is a problem, and with certain games it will make me play the same thing on the GP2X instead. But I like the color saturation and general screen quality (aside from the ghosting obviously) better on the PSP for other games.

Now maybe if I had an MK2 I would change that opinion somewhat, but I still don’t see how it would worsen the PSP screen. And really that’s my only disagreement here. I do not see this compromise in picture quality you are talking about in regards to the emus.

 

[lithium]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I didn't think it would get so heated though.

Like it or not, it really is a comparitive exercise so I do place a lot of stock in the comments from those who have both.

I have to say that the EMUs on the PSP by and large are actually superb quality and really run well.

But I would sincerely love a really solid Amiga EMU - and the F200 with the Stylus conjurs images of grandure with me in that regard.

That said, it looks like I might have jumped the gun a little, as the Amiga EMU on the GPx2 isn't 100% either. No matter, I can wait.

The battery thing really is a big deal to me, for a couple reasons. I don't like the idea of rechargable batteries with shorter lifespans than the PSP's Lithium battery. I can regularly get over 4 hours gaming time on the PSP no probs before a recharge and there's no fiddling with swapping anything out. The PSP has a cradle attached to the usb on the pc which I just dock and walk away. I prefer this kind of convenience, but that's a personal choice.

If anyone has any links to further threads that do a direct comparison from the GPx to the PSP I'd be most interested to read them, but for the moment it would seem that it's a decent decision for me to just wait and bide my time until the new model ships next year.

Thanks guys.

 

[housemonkey]

I wasnt heated so much as hung over...

It tends to blur the line in text form.