Giving the right impressions, being open-minded (split from GPD palmtop thread)

[b_o_b]

ED has even mentioned Android being a possible "secondary" option.

I think adding Android to Pyra is indeed possible but would add additional costs to an already expensive device. ED will just start without it and if sales are good it can be added later, who knows. I don't see the problem. Personally I don't like to pay for something I don't want/need.

Pretty sure that if the Android folks start a kickstarter to finance implementing Android on the Pyra ED would be thrilled and support that.
BTW what is wrong with one small community defending an alternative Linux solution? Isn't there enough Windows, Apple and Android in the world already.

 

[pmprog]

Personally I don't like to pay for something I don't want/need.

I agree, but even if ED invests in Android for Pyra there's no guarantee he'll put that charge onto the Pyra price! He might just hope that the Android release would be enough to sell more Pyras to Android users and developers.

If you get some sort of Android runtime you may attract other Android devs to the Pyra platform, which is also more Pyra sales.

This is all speculation, but brings me on to...

BTW what is wrong with one small community defending an alternative Linux solution? Isn't there enough Windows, Apple and Android in the world already.

Nothing wrong, apart from the way people go about it...

I'm still waiting for somebody to answer the question "What is there to defend?" You aren't going to lose Linux on the Pyra regardless of what other platforms are made available

 

[WizardStan]

there wouldn't be a bunch of posts about how much mario sucked every single time he's mentioned.

I don't see that happening, though. To continue carrying the analogy, worst that I see is when someone tries to promote a Zelda fan game which is basically just SMB3 with Zelda sprites, the blowback from which would be pretty bad because it completely misses the point.

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/linx-vision-8-windows-10-tablet-with-gaming-controls.76719/

I see no unwaranted negativity. There's a lot of people saying they intend to get it, even commenting on how useful Windows 10 is. The closest you get to negativity is a complaint about the dpad and the size which are both legitimate, and even those are steeped in "not for me, but someone else probably likes it".

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/jxd-singularity-192-new-console-android.76472/

Only one person said anything remotely negative about Android, and that was just calling it a "[totally useless] generic Android handheld". The rest of any perceived negativity are complaints about battery life, which is totally fair even if the original post was just a typo, and statements about how ugly it is in a "form over function" way, which is less fair but I don't see why that would make anyone hate us. Page 2 devolves into discussions about how to get the same SOC that was in it, and then page 3 further into discussions about getting an Atom (a ship which sailed long ago but some people still like to dream. The future is still bright). I remember reading your post in the middle now, and being as confused by it then as I am now, I just ignored it: I didn't know what you were talking about and it didn't affect me, so no harm, but now you're saying that it isn't just you, that an entire community which we should be friends with actually harbors animosity towards us and that troubles me greatly.

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside.69668/

63 pages and I will read through the entire thing to try and understand (only gone 5 pages for now) but from the start there's no negativity, it's actually very positive, a lot of excitement, including the discussion about Android: in four pages only two people vehemently complained about it running Android, while several others made positive comments about looking forward to some Android gaming. Some more discussion about it being ugly because it won't fit in your pocket, but that's one of the key features that brought us all to the Pandora, and most of those are, again, steeped in "not for me" style, and anyway many others commenting on how stylish it is in contrast. Again, nothing I can see would warrant any hate.

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside.69668/

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/th...mes-usa-another-android-gaming-console.75337

The OBOX got negative comments because it is negative: it had anti-root hardware intentionally designed to lock you out from many things. If that's enough to make people hate us then there is nothing I want to do to fix it. The OBOX was a terrible idea and I wouldn't encourage anyone to get one ever, least of all a community of DIYers. Some additional discussion came from that about getting Android on the Pyra which should actually disprove your point.

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside.69668/

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/mad-catz-project-m-o-j-o-android-game-console.71518/

This starts out with some negativity framed in "oh look, ANOTHER Android console, how original" sarcasm, which it is, but if you read more than the first few posts it quickly becomes "actually, ths is different/better than the other consoles. Perhaps we were too harsh though, maybe look to the Dingoonity forum for guidance, see how they reacted to the M.O.J.O.s news release. Oh look, they reacted in almost the exact same way. "Android useless, doesn't have the games I play", "seems everyone is getting in on Android consoles", and then "oh hey, this isn't just another OUYA, it does stuff", "I want one". There's even a few knee-jerk reactions to it simply because it was Mad Catz, the way I'm sure some people here react to JXD sometimes.
Seems like we're more alike than unalike, quite literally.

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside.69668/

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/wikipad-quad-core-tegra-3-199-tablet.66553/

I remember the wikipad discussion, it was basically 10 pages of "this is awesome and I want 50!". To be fair, it was a lot of you, but you weren't the only person calling for more, it was everyone, hoping that it would come out, being constantly disappointed when it was pushed back, disheartened when it looked like it wouldn't, disappointment when it finally preordered priced for more than double what they'd originally claimed, and then sad defeat. If there was negativity against Android or anything "not Pandora" in that thread at all it's buried under so much praise you'd have to be really salty to consider it even remotely indicative of the community.

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside.69668/

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/gcw-zero-open-source-gaming-handheld.66534/

Ah, the Zero. GCW Zero. Yes. There's even more discussion about that than the Shield. I think it safe to say the entire campaign was a cluster. To begin with, it was a direct call out to the Pandora community, the creator of the Zero went out of his way to make incorrect and unflattering comparisons against the Pandora, so to think we would just get slapped in the face like that and not respond in some way is not very understanding of human nature.
Second you've pulled from a time when Craigix was still an active member. He considered the Pandora his creation and was even more defensive about any perceived slight than any other member of the community, whether it were real, suggested, or completely imaginary. He got into many arguments with prominent members of this forum on a seemingly regular basis about how to improve the Pandora. He was so tied into the Pandora that he stopped selling everything else in his store for fear that it would compete with his precious baby, and it cost him his job, his car, and his home (probably). Any thread with craigix should automatically be disqualified as indicative of the community's opinion about anything "not Pandora"

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside.69668/

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/ouya-android-based-open-gaming-console.69530/

The OUYA was the first Android console. Announced in 2012 it was met with a lot of skepticism for the simple fact that not a lot of non-touchscreen games existed for Android at the time, and the claim that they could do it for just $99. And again, it's a very craigix heavy thread, take any overal opinion gained from it with a healthy grain of salt. I don't see any anti-Android sentiment, just healthy skepticism of a product making some questionable claims.
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside.69668/

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/gpd-g5a-gamepad-handheld-device.73550/

Seven posts between four people, nothing anti-Android. You've got one person saying it's ugly and another saying it isn't needed when you have a shield. I really have no idea what you're seeing, not even an idea that I may be missing something.

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/amazons-game-console.73920/

Ok, that's fair. Everyone is pretty disillusioned in the number of Android consoles coming out. I'd look to the dingoonity board to see how they handled the announcement but I can't find any discussion about it at all.
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside.69668/

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/huawei-tron-android-gaming-console.73385/

Ok no, that's a hilarious thread. Nothing interesting to talk about so it's just jokes about size and shape. One person wondering why, in a sea of Android, there isn't a single linux console, which is a bit of a stretch to anti-Android.
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside.69668/

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/razers-project-christine.73377/

Like you yourself said in that thread, "excellent design, flawed concept". Calling a fish a fish shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. Again, I don't see anything here that anyone should find elitist or anti-non-pandora, just standard discourse.

You've said you've had this feeling of "elitism" and tried to provide examples of why you felt that, but so far all I've seen is

 

[SNESFAN]

I think this conversation needs split into it's own thread, but in the end I don't feel like continuing to argue this point either.

I state something that may or may not be happening, you argue, I present examples, you justify their responses and don't see a problem. So there's no problem.

 

[levi]

FWIW, I tend to agree with SNESfan, or at least I'll say that I've generally stopped commenting in the threads of things that don't interest me, because I know there'll always be other people to say they're not interested, and I suspect I'd add very little other than extra negativity.

 

[WizardStan]

I state something that may or may not be happening, you argue, I present examples, you justify their responses and don't see a problem. So there's no problem.

That is the problem though, me not seeing the problem. You've made a very compelling case that there is this opinion of us outside the board, so bad that other communities which we have a shared interest in, should be friends with, warn strangers away from us. That's a very, very bad thing. The fact that I can't understand at all where this opinion is coming from means that I'm stuck being complicit in that attitude, whether I'm directly contributing to it or not.
Yes, I'm justifying responses, because I don't understand why people would hate us for them. We're generally enthusiastic about new things, promote other devices, and yet there's a very real stigma that if you so much as mention Android or Windows around here you'll get your head bit off. Where did that come from? It is actually important that we figure that out. If the Pyra is going to be successful and this is going to remain the official forum, it needs to be thought of as a safe place people can come when they have questions or problems, not somewhere to be avoided out of fear. If someone needs some troubleshooting and they punch "Pandora forum" into google, and just below the main URL is a different post from another forum with a snippet saying "don't go to the Pandora forum, they eat babies" or whatever, it's going to reflect very poorly on their interaction.
And that's not just a hypothetical. When I wrote that sentence it suddenly reminded me of an instance where that happened: someone came to us with a problem, said they'd been having it for months but was afraid to ask about it because they'd been warned about how sensitive we were to criticism.
Fuck that noise, we need to fix that. We need to be welcoming to people that want to come here, people that like what the Pandora and Pyra are and want to learn more. People that have already taken the plunge and encounter problems.
The Pandora isn't perfect, it's got a lot of kinks. There's a piece of tape holding my case together because the screws were stripped, the buttons are squeaky, the wifi is quite flaky even on devices where it's pretty good, the bluetooth audio used to be a pain to get working although I'm taken to understand that it's much better now.
The Pyra is also going to have it's flaws. We can hope they're fewer than the Pandora but there'll be something, eventually, that breaks down and someone needs to ask for help and when that time comes I don't want them to be afraid to ask it.
But I can't help fix something if I can't even see the cause.
If porting Angstrom to another device is what it will take to make that happen then I'm willing to put in the effort, even if I don't see how it'll help.

 

[Neelix]

Yes, I'm justifying responses, because I don't understand why people would hate us for them. We're generally enthusiastic about new things, promote other devices, and yet there's a very real stigma that if you so much as mention Android or Windows around here you'll get your head bit off. Where did that come from? It is actually important that we figure that out.

You dismissed the threads that involved Craigix in that list, but perhaps you're overlooking the obvious. Craigix did a lot of damage to this community and it's reputation. That damage doesn't just go away because he's no longer here. Could it be that simple?

-Neelix

 

[Christoph.Krn]

Over the last one to two-ish years or so, there have indeed been a sizable number of new people asking questions or looking for clarifications etc. on these boards, who left for good very quickly because instead of there being an actual discussion, there would be things such as other people reinforcing each other about why the newcomer isn't making sense or such, often times followed by trolling or the like.

However, such reactions have not actually been limited to those kinds of threads. For example, when the keyboard discussions were going on, there were posts by people who've been reacting to these keyboard threads in quite a similar manner. But the end results were very different. Think about that.

I've been trying to get through to the moderation team many times for over a year now actually, I believe that they too for some reason have been going into a direction that has helped this place's discussion culture to develop that way (for example), but the moderation procedures here suck balls...

Another random thing that I've been writing about a while ago is that the way that "Likes" are being used may have had an influence on the discussion culture. "He's just a troll and obviously wrong \n $MEMEIMAGE" as a post may have a higher chance of receiving "Likes" compared to a well-thought-out, balanced argument, which, even for those people who are not actively trying to collect "Likes", may tend to weight the entire communication into a certain direction over time.

Then again, what I've just written here may contain traces of nuts, may make you go nuts, or may nuts make sense after all.

 

[TrashyMG]

So, maybe I'm not privy to private conversations held by the other moderators, but when did this happen? And what procedures suck balls?, not that we are given really any formal guidelines for moderating... I'm fairly light on censoring, kick out spammers when they show up and usually just stick to splitting and merging threads if they need it. I know the keyboard threads were an epic passionate battle, it took a lot of work to get anything productive out of it and I'm glad it's over. I felt censorship there would've made things worse.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Perhaps a mod can split this conversation that has been going on now into a separate thread .

 

[Binky]

When it comes to newbie questions, I think people here have a tendency to forget that debates that have burnt out among community members are still baffling to newcomers.

When someone asks "Why are you using a resistive touchscreen" without taking the time to trudge though endless forum archives, its still worth giving them a civil answer, outlining the reasons for the decision, and linking to a few pages of discussion.

When it comes to moderation, its always difficult to balance the people who are offended by profanity against those who are outraged by censorship.
Having said that, I'm not aware of any major weaknesses in the moderation arrangements here. If there are any, they should probably be discussed in a different thread, instead of clogging up this one.

 

[DaMummy]

When it comes to newbie questions, I think people here have a tendency to forget that debates that have burnt out among community members are still baffling to newcomers.

When someone asks "Why are you using a resistive touchscreen" without taking the time to trudge though endless forum archives, its still worth giving them a civil answer, outlining the reasons for the decision, and linking to a few pages of discussion.

When it comes to moderation, its always difficult to balance the people who are offended by profanity against those who are outraged by censorship.
Having said that, I'm not aware of any major weaknesses in the moderation arrangements here. If there are any, they should probably be discussed in a different thread, instead of clogging up this one.

If you expect me to be civil to *random newcomer that tells me what features I want but he wouldn't buy anyways*, you have to bring Prometheus back.

 

[Yoyobuae]

So you hate Microsoft for intrusive checking of their computer and automatic updates that will potentially keep them safe (despite what else they may do), but you want to "protect" those users by restricting their choice of OS to something they potentially don't want?

There's certainly no lack of reasons to hate microsoft and windows.

 

[b_o_b]

I'm still waiting for somebody to answer the question "What is there to defend?" You aren't going to lose Linux on the Pyra regardless of what other platforms are made available

Just a line of thought.

Even when you include the issues with Craig and all delays you can consider the Pandora was / is a success - at least how ED handled it. I am not sure how much profit the investors made but all produced Pandora’s are or will be sold.
Ed has proven there is money to be made with a mini Linux PC / Handheld. There is a nice community built around the Pandora and for the Pyra more professionalism is added by involving Nikolaus Schaller who has a lot of experience in creating and supporting Linux devices. Would he have been interested if ED told him he would like to make an Android device?

Linux enthusiasts are the backbone of this community. I am pretty sure hat the average Linux user can and is willing to spend more money for his gadgets. I am also sure if there is Android on the Pyra from day one, it will be discussed as being an Android device and might lose some of its appeal because of that. Adding Android to the mix could change the membership of this community and even shift towards a majority of Android users.
The Android users will probably be mainly gamers, not techies or developers. Android will also result in selling and promoting closed source Android software and not homebrew, OS customized ports and indie Linux software. An Android focussed community will definitely change this community and how the device will be reviewed and this community will be perceived.
I am usually all for change and choice, but in this case I am not so sure. I bought a GP2X and Pandora not only because it was nice hardware but also because it was a Linux device and the community was 'Linux friendly'.
Being niche and staying niche will keep it interesting for a minority but financially stable group of enthusiasts.

What ED is doing seems to be the best approach, start with a free Linux solution and see how this works out. If he is not selling enough or there is still interest in Android it can always be added later. And who knows, maybe a wizard like Notaz will port Android to Pyra - it happened before.

 

[Caine]

SNESFAN, I want to make some observations about your choice of words. You want to bridge the gap between communities as you perceive hostility between them, yet your own words occasionally sound as if you look down on them.

I was presenting an idea that would appeal to the cheap ass DIY guys in that forum to get them interested in the pandora's ecosystem.

If you are passionate about a device then having it called "cheap ass" is not a compliment. Some devices are cheaper because they cover less use-case. For instance, the Pandora/Pyra have overlap with the other devices w.r.t. gaming but differ by being a full-fledged miniature PC. If you do not care about the latter use-case then the Pandora/Pyra are just expensive devices.

To me your phrase cheap-ass comes over as implying lesser quality, which is arguable as the Pandora is not the epitome of high quality hardware itself, especially not the earlier versions (purple tint of death, poor quality shoulder buttons, case cracks and gaps in the corner etc..).

But for right now, just like I look at someone driving a jaguar, I'm full of resentment on something I can't afford, and immediately classify them as snobbish assholes without even meeting them. But if I were to test drive a jaguar myself, or maybe just get a cheap mod for my current piece of shit car (my car really isn't so bad) so it looks and drives like a jaguar, I might just change my mind about them a tad bit.

Again, if I put this statement into context then you are basically calling the other devices a piece of shit. Not exactly the phrasing I would use to bring people together.


The Pandora/Pyra differ from the other devices in that they do not try to be gaming handhelds but try to be desktop computers instead. They can play the role of the gaming handheld and there lies the overlap with other communities. The potential gain for both communities is shared development of new games. If we want to bridge the gap then that is something to focus on.

 

[levi]

So if it's just all tribalism and misdirected envy, why do we even need to play that game?

 

[Yoyobuae]

Pandora and Pyra are pretty much the epitome of this:
https://xkcd.com/644/

Just give us the hardware (and a running Linux environment), and we (the community) will write the software.

Hopefully with Pyra the kernel and low level stuff will be a bit less obscure and difficult than as with Pandora, so that the device is more accessible to porting other OS into Pyra (or Pyra OS customizations to another device).

 

[WizardStan]

I just spent 10 hours driving, had a lot of time to think, and I had an idea. I need to do more digging to see if this pans out but I think it's worth looking into. I'm going to sleep soon, spend a day relaxing perhaps, and come back to it, but I'll get the gist out and see if anyone else thinks the same.
The amount of passion that goes into things like the keyboard threads has been pointed out as a possible sticking point, people see those and might get the wrong impression. But I look at it like this: I've been online for over 20 years, been a member of a lot of different groups, and every single one has had similar discussions, things that get heated, but ultimately the heat dies off and we're all friends again, ready to fight about something else next week. There's absolutely nothing unusual about this. Seems like Gamefaqs has a civil war every couple of days over some new release, for an extreme example, and I'll bet I can dig into the Dingoonity forums as well and find at least a couple of instances of people getting really sensitive about one console over another. I don't actually have to go that far, just look at the GPD Windows device thread for an example, lots of fiery debate over processors and keyboards and designs and the games that they expect it to run. Pulling in at 15 pages now it's not that different from some of the debates we've had here.
But there is one key difference between this board and others: here we have significant, consistent encouragement for user input. Someone hears about a community driven device with a history, they like the idea, they want to be part of the community and voice their opinion, and drop right in the middle of a war they didn't even know was going on, a war that's not distinctly different from those happening all over the internet but still unexpected all the same. It leaves them with a bad impression which they then share. Random people are dropping in all the time because this is the official Pandora forum, and we encourage user input.
If I'm right about this, and I strongly suspect there's at least something to this hypothesis, then I have no idea what can possibly be done to fix it. It's not like we can ban all hardware debate threads, those are the bread and butter of sanity until release.
Thoughts? Yes, no?

 

[levi]

Was there all that much bad feeling within the keyboard threads? Perhaps I missed it, as I ducked out fairly early when it became a bit too repetitive for me. Sure there were differences of opinions, but I didn't see much ad hominem stuff there.

 

[WizardStan]

ad hominem or not, they did get very hot. To an outside observer it might look like we're quite unapproachable to criticism.