Free Lossless Image Format (FLIF)


ible

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yeah, as _wb_ mentioned to me earlier in this thread, don't use a lossless format to encode a lossy file (e.g. jpg)...
 

levi

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Actually, now that it's got lossy support built in, it actually seems to be not to bad for storing photos. I just processed all of the photos off my old 10MP camera into flif via PNG format using the -lossy 50 argument, and comparing the original JPEGs to restored PNGs out of the FLIF files showed that only a little colour resolution was lost I think. The sea lost a few turquoise highlights, while trees appeared slightly more green, but all shapes were maintained, and skintones were all good, and all of that in a file less than a quarter of the size of my original JPEGs! If I weren't comparing them at 1:1 resolution side by side, I probably wouldn't notice any changes.

I couldn't get flifview to run on my machine fwiw. It complained about a missing so.0 file, but that file had been previously installed via make install. Setting my LD_LIBRARY_PATH (which seemed to be unset, to my surprise) didn't help either.
 

levi

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Thanks! I'd already tried gdb and clang's static analyser, but both managed to skip over what I wanted.

It seems the path to libflif.so.0 is hardcoded to be /usr/lib. The install target of the makefiles put it in /usr/local/lib, so viewflif will fail if built and installed from git source. I'll raise an issue, I think.

Edit: Seems it's an Arch issue. The trick is to use the flif from AUR, not build it yourself from the makefiles it seems.
 
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Magic Sam

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[BUMP]
Hi all,

@_wb_ : are you involved in this one ?
Code:
https://jpeg.org/jpegxl/
https://www.slideshare.net/cloudinarymarketing/imagecon-2019-jon-sneyer
Cheers, Magic Sam
[/BUMP]
 

FBnil

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Yup, that's him!
[doublepost=1566339504,1566324221][/doublepost]The real question now is how much of FLIF is in JPEG-XL ? And can it stand on it's own, as a format, in a hostile world (where other formats reign).
 

levi

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I'd expect everything learned during the devlopement of FLIF went into JPEG-XL, therefore almost everything in FLIF made it through. Maybe some things that were in FLIF turned out to be suboptimal in practice and were therefore dropped for JPEG-XL, but otherwise I'd expect JPEG-XL to be a direct development on top of FLIF.
 

Silent-Hunter

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So are both formats going to be maintained? I was hoping to use FLIF for my photos when it is finished. Should I use JPEG XL instead? Also I see a third one now, FUIF!

I remember using FLIF for a bit for some images as a test and it worked quite well I thought.
 

levi

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Yes, I also tried converting some of my JPEGs to FLIF. They came back rather a lot bigger, but that's unsurprising as FLIF had to encode all of the JPEG artifacts losslessly as well as the actual image data. I then found that I could crop the end of the file to a fraction of the size of the original JPEG and still get perfectly usable images out of it. I never spent enough time to figure out how much to actually cut them to store them though, and storing an already lossy JPEG as a cropped FLIF felt doubly lossy to me. If I could actually process my camera RAW files into GIMP out to a flif file, I'd be happier cropping that and saving that, but as far as I can see GIMP still doesn't support FLIF. I don't really want to have to go via a mahoosive PNG if I can avoid it.

Seems to me that FLIF for us was effectively a preview of JPEG-XL for us, and it's unlikely to be improved on from now on. JPEG-XL meets the requirements set by the Joint Photographic Experts Group, so I'd expect to have better tools support.
 

elvissteinjr

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The main thing stopping me from using FLIF was less the overall support, but rather the lack of highly optimized tools. Viewing bigger collections of high-res images was kind of tedious with the load times, let alone the initial conversion process. The bigger backing could hopefully change this. I know that kind of compression doesn't come without computational complexity, but still.
 

FBnil

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was kind of tedious with the load times,
I hope intelligent image viewers will come out, that know to stop reading at 1/3 of the file because I only have SVGA resolution and the image is 4K.
 

levi

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Here's the first public drop of prototype code for JPEG-XL.


I'm currently building it (via the AUR recipe on Arch) so we'll see how it goes.

Edit: Nope, It's spit out some libraries and a lot of test scripts, but it failed to build fully even after disabling AVR2 as per the instructions in the readme. It hasn't spit out cjpegxl for example.
 
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ible

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i'm also having trouble building, but i at least got cmake to work. seems like i don't have a JPEGXL_VERSION defined somewhere, so it's complaining.

Code:
Scanning dependencies of target cjpegxltool
[ 75%] Building CXX object tools/CMakeFiles/cjpegxltool.dir/cjpegxl.cc.o
/home/$USER/code/jpeg-xl/tools/cjpegxl.cc:118:42: error: expected ')'
    fprintf(stderr, "cjpegxl - version " JPEGXL_VERSION "\n");
                                         ^
/home/$USER/code/jpeg-xl/tools/cjpegxl.cc:118:12: note: to match this '('
    fprintf(stderr, "cjpegxl - version " JPEGXL_VERSION "\n");
           ^
/home/$USER/code/jpeg-xl/tools/cjpegxl.cc:126:55: error: expected ')'
            "            /\\ |_   e n c o d e r    [" JPEGXL_VERSION "]\n\n");
                                                      ^
/home/$USER/code/jpeg-xl/tools/cjpegxl.cc:125:12: note: to match this '('
    fprintf(stderr,
           ^
2 errors generated.
make[2]: *** [tools/CMakeFiles/cjpegxltool.dir/build.make:63: tools/CMakeFiles/cjpegxltool.dir/cjpegxl.cc.o] Error 1
make[1]: *** [CMakeFiles/Makefile2:5844: tools/CMakeFiles/cjpegxltool.dir/all] Error 2
 

levi

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I don't think that's actually complaining about the JPEGXL_VERSION, it's complaining about the second argument to fprintf being a series of space separated strings. I don't even know what that's meant to do. As it says, after the first term it expects a close bracket.

I think my problems are more to so with the vintage of the machine I'm trying to build it on, a 2008 vintage core 1 system, which is still perfectly fast enough for me running linux. But that tops out at SSSE3 and don't do SSE4 let alone AVR.
 

FBnil

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@ible I know it is inside a make file and I think the initial thought was for the variable to be replaced by the value, like in a template, however it is not doing that, it is defining the variable as if a define.
So fprintf wants: fprintf(file, template, variable,variable,...), so it looks like in cjpegxl.cc the

fprintf(stderr, "cjpegxl - version " JPEGXL_VERSION "\n");
needs to be rewritten as:
fprintf(stderr, "cjpegxl - version %s \n", JPEGXL_VERSION);
or if all fails, as:
fprintf(stderr, "cjpegxl - version CUSTOM_IBLE \n");


edit: Reading https://gitlab.com/wg1/jpeg-xl/-/blob/master/tools/cjpegxl.cc
The JPEGXL_VERSION is a variable at make time, and is used in cjpegxl.cc and djpegxl_main.cc
The variable JPEGXL_VERSION is given at compilation time through a -D parameter, as we see from:

Code:
fbnil@vm1:~/CODE/C/jpeg-xl-master$ find . -type f -exec grep JPEGXL_VERSION {} /dev/null \; |grep =       
./build/CMakeCache.txt:CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS:UNINITIALIZED=  -DJPEGXL_VERSION=\"\" -DJXL_DEBUG_WARNING -DJXL_DEBUG_ON_ERROR
./build/CMakeCache.txt:CMAKE_C_FLAGS:UNINITIALIZED=  -DJPEGXL_VERSION=\"\"
./ci.sh:JPEGXL_VERSION=${JPEGXL_VERSION:-${CI_COMMIT_SHA:0:8}}
./ci.sh:CMAKE_FLAGS="${CMAKE_FLAGS:-} -DJPEGXL_VERSION=\\\"${JPEGXL_VERSION}\\\""

EDIT: added the concatenated form:

A short demo of that #DEFINE is:

fbnil@vm1:~/CODE/C$ gcc -D'JPEGXL_VERSION="1.44kb"' test.c ; ./a.out
cjpegxl - version 1.44kb
cjpegxl - version 1.44kb

can also be called with escaped quotes (as the ci.sh has):
fbnil@vm1:~/CODE/C$ g++ -DJPEGXL_VERSION=\"1.44kb\" concat.c && ./a.out

code snippet for test.c:
C:
#include <stdio.h>

int main(void){
  fprintf(stderr, "cjpegxl - version %s\n", JPEGXL_VERSION);
  fprintf(stderr, "cjpegxl - version " JPEGXL_VERSION "\n");
  return 0;
}
works with gcc and g++ (C and C++).

knowledge source: http://addisu.taddese.com/blog/inserting-svn-revision-number-in-your-cc-code/
 
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ible

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i imagine JPEGXL_VERSION is supposed to be a macro (#define JPEGXL_VERSION "12.345"), in which case the space-separated strings would just automatically concatenate at compile time. but i shouldn't have to muck around with the source.

fprintf doesn't need formatting arguments, if it's just a string.

seems like cmake should be defining JPEGXL_VERSION as some string, based on a quick grep...
Code:
~/code/jpeg-xl$ grep JPEGXL_VERSION *
ci.sh:JPEGXL_VERSION=${JPEGXL_VERSION:-${CI_COMMIT_SHA:0:8}}
ci.sh:echo "Version: $JPEGXL_VERSION"
ci.sh:CMAKE_FLAGS="${CMAKE_FLAGS:-} -DJPEGXL_VERSION=\\\"${JPEGXL_VERSION}\\\""
[edit]ahh, maybe i'm supposed to be using the ci.sh to compile things. i assumed it would be a `mkdir build; cd build && cmake ..` idea. i'll try again a bit later...
 

levi

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Yes, the website lists debian building instructions if you don't want to use docker, but that seems to be behind a login wall so I couldn't view it for you.

Edit: I can confirm all of your previous findings. My copy of the cjpegxl source contains the same odd-looking line, and JPEGXL_VERSION is defined in ci.sh. My AUR pkgbuild doesn't call ci.sh directly though, it invokes cmake with options -B build and -S jpeg-xl then make with -C build and test. I've limited experience with cmake though, so I don't know exactly what any of that does.
 
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FBnil

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@levi although the README.md says "doc/building_in_debian.md", maybe that file is actually "./doc/developing_in_debian.md" ? Also: edited previous post to add the auto-concatenate-at-compile in the example.
@ible I did the same before I read the README, but then ran the ci.sh and my tools are too old :( (will have to look into the mechanics of PortableAnsible that has a make that actually builds a docker from scratch to build there)
 

ible

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looks like i got it to build (after deleting my old attempt's build dir). not sure what i'm doing with it at this point, though!
 

FBnil

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Awww... AVIF got chosen over JPEG-XL :(

edit: Fixed the URL, thanks @levi
 
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