First Batch Advice

[juniorm33]

@mali
Yet no one has been able to tell me when the advice changed, and why apart from the fact that it's been delayed.

That was always possible, and doesn't really answer my question of why the change in advice.

If the Dev's come and say yep we're fine with not giving that advice any more then fair enough.

During the delay, it doesn't mean they worked on it non stop, without any changes.

 

[gruso]

These videos are why we don't need to worry.

http://pandorapress....ages-in-action/

http://pandorapress....ome-pnd-action/

 

[juniorm33]

These videos are why we don't need to worry.

http://pandorapress....ages-in-action/

http://pandorapress....ome-pnd-action/

Riiiigggghhhhht...... lol
That's called the happy path.
Considering that there always seems to be someone new to pick up a first batch I don't think a couple videos showing things working perfectly should be enough to change our advice, when someone new who fully understands what their getting is also around the corner.
Personally I'm not worried, I just like to believe I'm giving a fair and balanced advice.

 

[gruso]

Well I'm still not sure exactly what your concern is. You've seen how far the OS has come, and it's not much use wringing hands about first batch advice now, when the first batch is all but sold out. As long as people know it doesn't run Windows or Windows apps, they should be fine.

 

[juniorm33]

Well I'm still not sure exactly what your concern is. You've seen how far the OS has come, and it's not much use wringing hands about first batch advice now, when the first batch is all but sold out. As long as people know it doesn't run Windows or Windows apps, they should be fine.

Huh, all but out? And that's your answer why we shouldn't care about what we tell new comers?
Yet we still tell people to order as there's still a good chance they can get hold of one.
Just because we've possibly become lax in our advice, it doesn't mean that we should not tell the people who still have a chance to get hold of one the correct advice.
Seeing how far it's come from snippets of videos, showing specific tasks is hardly saying that it's totally solid for any newb who may not be prepared for an OS that may have bugs that cause them a lot of problems as EvilDragon pointed out himself in this very thread. That is my concern.
We've only seen snippets, we've not used it, my point is I don't think it's up to us from that to determine that it's solid enough for everyone, it's for the DEV's and if they say they think it is I'm fine with that. Simple

 

[Monk]

Huh, all but out? And that's your answer why we shouldn't care about what we tell new comers?
Yet we still tell people to order as there's still a good chance they can get hold of one.
Just because we've possibly become lax in our advice, it doesn't mean that we should not tell the people who still have a chance to get hold of one the correct advice.

Can I have a stab at this? I think the reason that people have tended to be more "gung-ho" about advising "newbies" to get hold of Pandoras is multifold. It would include at least (IMHO):

The Pandora has had an extra year of development, during which we have heard of specific things which probably would have been a stumbling block for newbies (like Wifi not working properly/smoothly/easily a year ago) but which have now been fixed. Like circuit board revisions (we've passed what, about 3 or 4 board changes since Sept 2008?).

We've had another year of experience of other devices - which nowadays need so many frequent updates that it's frankly incredible to me... if you told us that you had to flash your washing machine last week I doubt there would be many that would disbelieve you. We've gotten used to the idea that technology is, well, a bit crap really and needs to be fixed regularly (but cheaply!).

We've had numerous occasions where things have looked so bad for OpenPandora that there has seemed to be a real risk that they could go bankrupt, taking our money and any hopes of ACTUALLY getting our Pandoras down the drain with them. So we have, collectively, become something of an unpaid slave-labour sales force for OpenPandora, out of self preservation. We WANT this project to succeed, and natuarlly do what we can to try and ensure this.

We have, of course, also got excited by any number of videos being posted, and promises of ports of our favourite games (Aliens Vs Predator, anyone?) being made by the time we get our grubby mits on the hardware. So... we get excited. Excited people want to share their joy (it's one of the few redeeming features of mankind, IMHO).

Where are "newbies" coming from? Has Pandora been advertised on national telly? In Argos catalogues? No... when it's been seen, AFAIK, the target audience so far has mostly been gadget or tech freaks. People who may well not be Linux folk (I am not one, for example) but who are already engaged in the techno-junk world of game computing. So it's seemed increasingly reasonable to assume that anyone coming here before the product has even been released is at least PARTIALLY tech savvy, and not someone still wet behind the ears. Not, perhaps, folk we'd have recommended the device to a year ago - but a year ago there wasn't even a hint at a console-style simplified front end IIRC.

Those few "reasons" encompass a lot of individual instances, and probably miss out on quite a bunch even though I've tried to make them blandly generic... but the main thrust of my argument is that we didn't change from one position to the other overnight. Over the last year, the device has seemed to improve, our understanding of the device has improved, and our understanding of who is arriving on these boards has hopefully improved. It's NOT a brilliant polished final article - but neither (IMHO) is Windows Vista. It does, however, look like "on release" it's going to be an awful lot more useable than it would have been a year ago. A year ago the software would have been in a horrible state, and the number of applications ready to use on it would have been tiny compared to what it is (albiet hidden away, out of sight) today. So we have gradually relaxed our caution on who to advise purchasing the product.

Bugs? You betya. But then - Vista is still being patched too.

 

[Dunny]

Well I'm still not sure exactly what your concern is. You've seen how far the OS has come, and it's not much use wringing hands about first batch advice now, when the first batch is all but sold out. As long as people know it doesn't run Windows or Windows apps, they should be fine.

Huh, all but out? And that's your answer why we shouldn't care about what we tell new comers?
Yet we still tell people to order as there's still a good chance they can get hold of one.
Just because we've possibly become lax in our advice, it doesn't mean that we should not tell the people who still have a chance to get hold of one the correct advice.

Tell you what, here's a plan - and I think you'll like it.

When a newbie comes in here asking stuff about the pandora, whether or not he or she should get it... that kind of thing, you can warn them and go into great depth at enormous lengths to scare them off. This will ensure that only the pros and other elite types get in on the first batch, just the way you like it. Not that you're gonna scare many away - there's only about 100 left of the first batch. Whoops, you're a bit late here.

The rest of the forum will continue going "ooooh", "ahhhhh" and "SHINY!" at n64 emulator videos while harping on about just how good the snes and megadrive emulation will be, as normal.

The best bit about that plan? You get to shut up with your damned whining and we get to go back to the status quo.

D.

 

[gruso]

Funny thing is, when people come here asking questions, we do explain it to them. I think Monk nailed it (good post all round btw). Most people coming here are pretty tech savvy. The ones who want WoW, or CoD, or a Sony iTendo appstore are quickly corrected. People ask how apps are installed, is the Lunix scary, and we explain it to them. We're handling it fine IMO.

There will be probably be one or two people who get their Pandoras and unleash a torrent of tears on the forums because it doesn't work how they wanted it to. It's already happened in the Wiz forum. Such is life.

 

[juniorm33]

Tell you what, here's a plan - and I think you'll like it.

When a newbie comes in here asking stuff about the pandora, whether or not he or she should get it... that kind of thing, you can warn them and go into great depth at enormous lengths to scare them off. This will ensure that only the pros and other elite types get in on the first batch, just the way you like it. Not that you're gonna scare many away - there's only about 100 left of the first batch. Whoops, you're a bit late here.

The rest of the forum will continue going "ooooh", "ahhhhh" and "SHINY!" at n64 emulator videos while harping on about just how good the snes and megadrive emulation will be, as normal.

The best bit about that plan? You get to shut up with your damned whining and we get to go back to the status quo.

D.

I'll try to overlook the fact that your an idiot, in fact I'll ignore your ignorant post entirely!


Thanks Exophase, EvilDragon, Monk, (Gruso although we have different views on if it's worth informing last few or not, IF that was required)

Reasoned descusion is always nice, I really wonder when the Pandora Deffence Force really set up shop around here, their getting pretty irratating as much as (if not more so) than the doom and gloomers.

@Monk

Yea, that was what I was saying earlier in thread, that I wonder if our excitement and all the nice videos, and how close it is seems to have subconsciously changed our advice, and if it was for the better or not.
No ones talking about putting people off as there's a steady stream of people hoping to get one it seems, I'm just saying that sometimes the second batch may be a better option for some people. As I said the WIFI is working now which it wasn't, and things seems to be head and shoulders above what they were. If you want to use Vista as an example we can, it wasn't really ready for anybody until the first service pack lol, I think we don't have to worry about that

My posts aren't negative, and infact state that things have gotten a lot better, especially concidering it's by a few people doing it in their spare time. But is it good enough for everyone since it hasn't really been tested by users, especially for people who has little idea of the actual project? I just don't want my own excitement to paper over things when I'm speaking to a potential customer (weather that was a year ago or today).
Oh and a year ago it was meant to be a console like experience easy to use device as it is today, if that's how you want to use it.

 

[juniorm33]

Funny thing is, when people come here asking questions, we do explain it to them. I think Monk nailed it (good post all round btw). Most people coming here are pretty tech savvy. The ones who want WoW, or CoD, or a Sony iTendo appstore are quickly corrected. People ask how apps are installed, is the Lunix scary, and we explain it to them. We're handling it fine IMO.

There will be probably be one or two people who get their Pandoras and unleash a torrent of tears on the forums because it doesn't work how they wanted it to. It's already happened in the Wiz forum. Such is life.

Don't get me wrong I do agree with most what you've just said, but as Exophase said, time is no substitute for testing although they have had time to do more work on it.
I've seen many projects work very well until a user gets their hands on it, and does things in a totally different way.

Although Exophase, EvilDragon seem to see where I'm coming from, I seem to be the only one with concerns, so maybe it's not something that we need to worry about. I just didn't think that since it's only the odd few now we shouldn't get our story straight, so that's that then

 

[Monk]

IMHO it's not so much that there are no concerns but.... hmm....OK. The reason that stuff can't be PERFECT before release, be it Pandora or Vista, is that the people doing the developing aren't normal end users, They are savvier. So they don't think to do things outside their own perspective, mostly. Now - when you have a multi-million pound empire you can afford to pay for lots of beta testers who WILL go outside your comfort zone, and who will find the product doesn't work as well or as reliably in the way THEY want. Betetr still, when you're a multi-million pound empire you're usually popular enough that you can get beta testers to work for free just so they can get your product early. They feed back to the devs, and the product gets improved. Unlike Microsoft, Pandora don't have those funds so yes, in many ways, we WILL be the beta test team... however, if we exclude everyone who isn't brilliantly savvy from batch #1, by the time batch #2 arrives we still won't have THAT much better software. Because if we set the "savvy" level too high, the early users won't find the "dumb things" that make the device go wrong, the users won't report them to the devs because they didn't go "boom", and the devs won't fix it... so batch #2 will still be riddled with loads of bugs for the unwary, and the less-aware batch #2 users are going to be in for a nasty surprise (potentially).

In order for the problems to be found, you have to sacrifice a few virgins. It's just, sadly, the way that our world works now. Mostly to our detriment IMHO.

However - we aren't advising (that I've seen) that complete novices simply pick it up and start trying to make a buck selling PandoraApps. _A_ level of competance and eyes-open is still being maintained AFAICS, it's just a lower level than it was a year ago, based on the fact that the machine and its software have evolved to that lower level.

Having said which, I'm willing to bet my 8yo son will be able to find and start a game, console-like, on the Pandora within 60 seconds of having it handed to him.

 

[Loon]

Nice one Na-Noo, was just about to start a similar thread.

I'm guessing that a lot of Pandora users will have experienced the launch of the GP2X as well. I can only imagine that things will be similar on the software side. i.e. Things will improve rapidly once the community gets their hands on their Pandoras.

I'm sure there will be lots of bugs uncovered and improvements made in the first year or so.

As for the OS my guess is that problems will be sorted out a lot quicker than they were with the GP2X, my experience of support from developers of GP2X apps was nothing short of excellent, let's hope it's the same for the Pandora. Just hope everyone bears in mind that a user has no right to expect / demand bug fixes or support for a free application.

I can only hope the hardware side of things bears no relation to the 1st batch GP2X.

Slightly off topic but it might be worth changing the forum a little with a dedicated section for bug reports etc. Not sure who to ask so this gets done.

 

[Sugar_Kane]

I was concerned before about a lot of people misunderstanding the purpose of the Pandora when they preorded. I suspected that people new to the scene might have superficially read what it is capable of and were expecting it to be a contender in the mainstream handheld console market.

I'm wondering if the forums will be beaten into submission by those first batchers that hadn't fully realised what they were getting in to, and are wondering where to insert the games cartridges, and why they couldn't find any in Asda.

 

[relliker]

Sugar_Kane:

I think a lot of Pandora aficionados feel the same. In the least, a lot of those always whining about the delays, threatening to cancel orders and throwing verbal abuse at the team probably fall into that "new to the scene" category even if they pre-ordered last year and have been long-time forum members because they clearly don't get the idea behind the Pandora and the magnitude of the work involved. BUT, if the team expects the Pandora to be a run-away success and make money off it with future truckloads of Pandies they should also prepare some sort of infrastructure to handle exactly this type of user. We tinkerers never think twice about a bug or two (or even 42!) and usually either patiently wait for a fix or file the bug report ourselves and try to follow it up. Most NDS and PSP-style customers (who never jailbreak or mod anything) don't get that because they expect the product to be wrinkle-free from the start.

 

[Mjlink]

Well I'm still not sure exactly what your concern is. You've seen how far the OS has come, and it's not much use wringing hands about first batch advice now, when the first batch is all but sold out. As long as people know it doesn't run Windows or Windows apps, they should be fine.

Huh, all but out? And that's your answer why we shouldn't care about what we tell new comers?
Yet we still tell people to order as there's still a good chance they can get hold of one.
Just because we've possibly become lax in our advice, it doesn't mean that we should not tell the people who still have a chance to get hold of one the correct advice.

Tell you what, here's a plan - and I think you'll like it.

When a newbie comes in here asking stuff about the pandora, whether or not he or she should get it... that kind of thing, you can warn them and go into great depth at enormous lengths to scare them off. This will ensure that only the pros and other elite types get in on the first batch, just the way you like it. Not that you're gonna scare many away - there's only about 100 left of the first batch. Whoops, you're a bit late here.

The rest of the forum will continue going "ooooh", "ahhhhh" and "SHINY!" at n64 emulator videos while harping on about just how good the snes and megadrive emulation will be, as normal.

The best bit about that plan? You get to shut up with your damned whining and we get to go back to the status quo.

D.

+1
Another idiot

 

[Monk]

In the least, a lot of those always whining about the delays, threatening to cancel orders and throwing verbal abuse at the team probably fall into that "new to the scene" category even if they pre-ordered last year and have been long-time forum members because they clearly don't get the idea behind the Pandora and the magnitude of the work involved.

So..basically...you're a newbie if you complain, regardless of how long you've been involved?

 

[Poem58]

In the least, a lot of those always whining about the delays, threatening to cancel orders and throwing verbal abuse at the team probably fall into that "new to the scene" category even if they pre-ordered last year and have been long-time forum members because they clearly don't get the idea behind the Pandora and the magnitude of the work involved.

So..basically...you're a newbie if you complain, regardless of how long you've been involved?

Exactly what I thought, interesting statement form someone who's been on the boards 1 month. Seems to me I have more of a right to ask why certain info has never been answered or be upset about delays then someone who has been waiting a month. Someone who has been here longer than me has that right even more. We understand the project just fine, some of us don't understand why some things seem to be always unconfirmed and mired in guesstimation. I have made the cancellation comment only because I promised my wife a cutoff point of which 15 months after preorders seemed totally fair. Doesn't mean I don't understand or even support the project or I wouldn't be here now.

 

[Aninhumer]

I think there's a simple reason the response has gone from "wait for 2nd batch" to "BUY NOW!!!11!".
We've now been told the Second batch is going to be months later than we previously thought.

When we thought the first batch would be in two... in a couple of months, and the second batch would be early 2010, waiting for the second batch wasn't such a big thing, and so we suggested people did. In fact, I was intending to at one point (changed my mind for different reasons, but whatever)

Now the second batch is in the distant future that is mid 2010, we want to tell people to get one now so they don't miss it, and also so they actually get one instead of forgetting about it.


I would agree though, we might do well to encourage people who aren't entirely familiar with the scene to wait it out, the device by the time of the second batch is much more likely to be the kind of experience we want people to have as their first exposure to the project.

 

[relliker]

lol, yes I've been on the boards only 1 month but I have been following the Pandora for quite a while. Since I am not a development guru and neither an electronics engineer or case designer I could not contribute to the project except by waiting for the product to be near completion and then help by ordering it. I nearly pre-ordered the first time but decided to see how it goes. We all know how it went. This time my gut feeling was that just observing was not enough so I subscribed to the one-shot email that was to be sent and then joined the forum for some fun because I felt that the final product had become a more solid prospect. I am not sneering at anyone who whines or threatens to cancel his/her order, I am merely saying that these are probably the type of people who are not really into open source or open projects for the "freedom" aspect but more into owning a fantastic gadget that does it all and then some, expecting it to be totally bug-free, fully playable, emulating everything etc. from the go. To those I just say "sorry bro, it ain't gonna happen". These things take time. Look at a lot of open source projects. Some have been around for years, are damned stable and are still at a 0.1 - 0.9 version numbers. They might stay that way for years because open sourcers do not have to (or do not want to) commit themselves to label a version as 1.0 for the sake of "time to market" like commercial developers have to do due to market share/competitivity and profit margin pressure and deadlines. Don't do what a lot are doing right now, i.e. take this as an opportunity to attack someone (in this case me) just for their having given their two cents. I am (probably repeatedly) trying to convey to others what type of product the Pandora is/will be and to stress the need that people should be calm, patient and appreciative of the Pandora team's work. After all they all have a life and day job besides the Pandora project. They are doing this for the love of innovation and openness and maybe to go through the experience of developing a product from inception to market by themselves so that their next ventures are smoother and more successful. Maybe my text monologues are my way to contribute to the project. If I can prevent someone from hurling abuse at someone else by explaining what it's all about then I am happy. If I find out that somebody who can keep his cool and try to lessen the tension is not required then I'll shut up. Until then I will continue trying to mediate and give my two cents where I think appropriate, if you don't mind

 

[Monk]

Mediate? We needed mediating? :blink: