Ethics And Morality Of Emulation

[Epicenter]

It's becoming tiresome to see the same "Yeah, X emulator will/won't run but you're a stupid warez kiddy for trying to run it" or "No X emulator won't run, go buy the console" and the much more aggravating "How dare you think of running emulators on the Gp2x" debates breaking out in every thread about the capabilities of the GP2x, so I am starting this thread so we can have one central place to discuss what is and isn't moral (in our own opinion..) about various aspects of emulation.

My own take on it? There's no reason to criticize people for buying the console to run emulators and not to make their own homebrews or commercial games for the machine-- the commercial games have proven to be few and rather unpopular, and expecting everyone who buys the machine to be a fluent C/C++/SDL/ASM developer is an unrealistic goal (and we can all agree sales to reflect such use would bankrupt Gamepark Holdings.) I intend to write a game or two (or more) for this console, as I feel it's very well designed and an exellent platform for independent game development, but the majority of people buying the system (let's not kid ourselves) won't be picking up the console and diving into development as their first priority (if at all.) Even if GPH can't make this their official stance, this is clear regardless that emulation will be a large part of what makes the system profitable.

Do I think it's ethical to download and play 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit and arcade games and play them on the GP2x? In most cases, yes. An affection for the games of these (bygone) eras indicates the person who wants to emulate these titles had owned the games and in some way supported the developers/publishers to have gained such respect for them.

Now, this doesn't really work as well for more modern games and systems. People posting threads like "Can I run PSP/NDS/Gamecube/XBox/PS2 games on my GP2x?" are not only making wildly ridiculous suggestions that such high-calibre hardware could even BE emulated on the console (it can't), but also make it terribly clear they have no intention to go buy the real systems and games which the developers and publishers stand to profit from TODAY, and would instead seek to play them for 'free' on a GP2x. This isn't really respectable, even if there are exceptions (e.g. I wouldn't buy a PSP for one game, but I might not feel too awful playing it on the GP2x, were it possible) and this sort of behavior should not be encouraged.

But for those of us, like me, who would love to play the titles they enjoyed over 10, or 15, or 20 or more years ago and cannot profit their developers anymore and carry around their favorites in their pocket, and have a sizable pile of cartridges over by the TV, I feel there are no real moral or ethical repercussions for doing so, nor should there be.

Where do you stand on this issue?

(Also, could this be pinned please? I'm really tired of every thread turning into this same old flamewar.)

 

[lucoxade]

Good grief! we desperately need these consoles to play with or something else to discuss if we have to revert this old old debate.

Somebody please invent some rumors or start a flame war or I'm gonna bring back that Anna Hong thread again

 

[WoD]

Developers would profit from game sales if I could afford to buy the damned things on top of everything else we need to survive and enjoy ourselves in this world.

It's a dog eat dog world out there, we're being sold anything and everything so we'll naturally cut corners and rip off developers so we can enjoy life more.

I would feel, I think, something for those developers if we were buying games directly from them, but just like music the old publishers get a massive slice of the pie for not actually doing anything more than take the game from the developers, put it on a shelf and make a lot of noise about it. I don't need to have things to buy frequently forced down my throat in a variety of creative ways, and neither does anyone else.... we're paying a company money so they can piss us off with irritating advertising.

I'm not suggesting I know a better way, but It's been said once and I will surely say it again- if you see your customers obtaining games in an entirely new way then GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT and stop arsing about kicking up a fuss. Games for sale online without all the superfluous packaging and marketing crap and the price that comes with those things would be quick and easy to get hold of and often worth buying.

As for classic console emulation, I'm all for it- anything that is not stocked in high-street stores and sold first hand is happy gaming ground for me... albeit I have also downloaded a few GBA ROMs in my time to try them out on am emulator, and have downloaded the odd PC game too... I don't think I am in to mainstream gaming enough to warrant buying anything anymore, which makes it pretty irrtating that my whole gaming site gig fell through.

 

[craigix]

We're all going to hull.

 

[WoD]

Most delayed double post, Ever.

 

[aQwaBlaz3]

I believe in God and go to church and abide by the 10 Commandments, but I downlaod all the time....it becuase I want to check out games or they are old games that are rare...

 

[junker]

I share your views, Epicenter. I don't see much wrong in emulating old games from old hardware that no longer make profit, especially if you have the games/systems or contributed something back then. Emulating newer systems is entirely different, though, since this is known to attract a lot people that want to play the game that just hit for free, and would stop people that may buy the few games they were interested in before from buying them.

There are benefits to emulating newer systems like the gba, though. You don't have to worry about carrying multiple carts, bigger screen, etc.. and this is all fine if you have the original games/hardware, but I have to admit, A lot of people, including myself, would be tempted to bootleg new games for that system.
So should this stop the development of something like a gba emulator? Not sure, but I'm not against it.

And WoD, I agree about how it would be better to buy games directly from the developers. Not exactly sure how this would work..things aren't so easy I bet. And I'm sure they would get more money by going through a publisher with a lot of advertising, than by doing it all themselves...advertising/distribution/encryption/etc..

 

[Hanz™]

We're all going to hull.

​

I presume the typo was intended.

 

[Jarska333]

Having a portable X-box would be cool, though. Not that there are any interesting games for it, mind you.

When it comes to digital entertainment, I am a regular hamster, or a packrat. I download 11Gigs of Mame roms, burn them to DVD, and showe them to a box somewhere, never to be seen again. I don't feel like I'm breaking a law...

 

[psj3809]

This old chestnut turns up at every emulation forum from time to time.

Firstly i cant stand 'do gooders' who make out theyre angels and dont do anything wrong.

I dont copy PC games which are out, i dont copy PSX2 games which are out, i admit i do download and use 20 year old roms/games i didnt own though. Yes its illegal but to me its not as bad as some kid downloading PSX2 games or GBA games.

Like i say yeah i'm as bad as him but i'm the one playing 20 year old games which have a zero value in todays computer shop.

If anything because of our boom in emulation and retro gaming many companies like Sony, Nintendo and others have now got another revenue stream coming in which is from re-released games from 15 years ago.

Take one game though for example, i bought a few NES games when i was a kid, i dont have them now, probably thrown out in the rubbish but 20 years on i'm not going to buy that game again to play on the PSX2. I personally dont think its wrong to download the ROM of that game which i paid for years and years ago.

Dont get me wrong, the majority of games i download werent always ones i owned as a kid. A few are though

But the way i look at it is that on the list of 'being bad' i'm not that high up at all.

I dont smoke so i'm not polluting people and giving them lung cancer by passive smoking, granted i drive a car so i'm screwing up the environment. I'm paying my taxes though and not sponging off the government so i dont feel too bad about myself for downloading 20 year old games.

What really winds me up as i said are the do-gooders who preach on and on about how bad we are. Do they go to a smoking forum and moan to those people about passive smoking and lung cancer ? Do they go to a website about fast cars to moan at how these cars could kill lots of innocent people. Do they go to a site about drinking alcohol and go on about alcohol deaths and how much money is used for police to stop idiot drinkers at a weekend ? Course they dont.

In the eyes of the law i know what i'm doing is wrong, but playing 20 year old games which arent on sale anymore i dont feel that bad at all.

But playing games which can make profit, eg GBA, PSX2 etc, then yeah thats much worse but 20 year old games, hell no

 

[reallynotnick]

Do they go to a smoking forum and moan to those people about passive smoking and lung cancer ? Do they go to a website about fast cars to moan at how these cars could kill lots of innocent people. Do they go to a site about drinking alcohol and go on about alcohol deaths and how much money is used for police to stop idiot drinkers at a weekend ? Course they dont.

​

I liked your post, but where the heck is a forum about smoking and drinking? :lol:

 

[junker]

yeah, heh

 

[garteth]

I just moan to the people themselves instead of on forums damn smokers, I have asthma

 

[murak]

I agree with the topic creator.

I downloaded and payed for Half Life 2 via Steam, wich worked like a charm, a good example of how things should work.

I agree that it would be nice if more developers did the same, but the fact that a game is not for sale as a download does not make it ok to steal it. Classic rule: If u like it, Buy it!

As for classics emulation, I cant see the harm.

 

[idigital]

In some cases, emulation and piracy has actually led to the original companies/developers re-releasing their old games in emulation packs.

Well, I'm not sure how many cases, but not so long ago First Star Software released a pack of it's games (Boulderdash etc) with a custom build of a c64 emulator. The games they supplied were actually cracked versions distributed by pirates, that had the intros and trainers removed.

Also the C64 DTV (c64 emulator on a chip inside a joystick that plugs into your TV) came with a bunch of classic titles that had been licensed for re-release by the company that produced it. These games were also pirated copies that had the intros and trainers removed.

So, the evils of emulation and piracy can actually lead to legitimate revivals and even money in the pockets of the original developers.

Funny ol' world innit.

Also, I promise to shut up about c64 as soon as I get my gp32 in the mail

 

[skeezix]

Agh, not this again I'll have to look aroundf for my morality/ethics/legal essays about this stuff.

Morally and ethically, emulation is cool -- you buy a cart, its your every right to play the game; if yours every right to play 5 carts from 5 different systems on your preferred platform, especially when the company ceases to exist oir drops support.

Legally sometimes agrees, and it varies vary much by country, but doesn't alqays coincide with morality since money is on the line. ie: In the US, the DMCA has some provisions to circumvent protection to allow you to play old games on new media etc, when the company stops supporting you, for instance. Certainly, buying a swipe-card for the GBA Player so you get the 'license' to use a NES ROM is cool too. As always, the legals are simple - no one has the right to distribute a ROM file, disk image etc,l unless the company specifically allows them to (not bloody likely -- so you can, and always have and always will be, able to emulate pretty much anything you want.. but you cannot legally download the ROMs (the uploader is certainly breaking the law,and in most places the downloader too.. it may look the same, but its not your particular purchase.)

The real truth of it is.. the companies aren't likely going to come after you, but thats irrelevent; what is relevent is if you own the license to a game, no one will care where you got it. (ie: For instance, if you bought Retro Gamer magazine you've got the license to a few hundred assorted games there. If you bought the Atari packs for PSX and PS2, you've got hundreds more licenses there. With a few bargain bin buys, you'll have licernses to thousands of arcade and console and PC games.)

Ethics and morals.. check, you've paid, you have the right. You have the right to open your car, you have the right to open your SNES. But you don't have the right to zip up your collection and send it to someone

jeff
Just call me "foams at the mouth, since this comes up three times a week"

 

[scoobydew]

I myself have downloaded a few roms in my time but if it is okay or not really has little to do with how you or I feel about it.

The important thing is if the companies that made these games think it is okay or not. They are the people who made them and if they don't profit from us playing their games they worked hard to create long ago or last week well I can see where I would be wrong in doing such a thing. Besides if you do a search on google you'll find that rom sites don't seem to last very long. Could be bandwidth usage or could be the legal issue. Just try to find a working site that has N64 roms to download from even though the system is no longer being sold(at least not in the USA).

Is it legal to play a game that is no longer being circulated? Nintendo and their lawyers doesn't think it is. We can argue that we are being nostalgic about the whole thing and by playing these games we are appreciating them more by remembering them but that is simply a bending of the truth to fit our needs. Lets be real here. :rolleyes:

Will I continue to play game roms of games I don't have in my possession anymore? Sure, but I do feel the twinge of guilt every now and then when I do. Emulators and movies are why I purchased the machine in the first place. Shocker, I know, but that is the reason for the GP2x plain and simple no matter how we or the Hongs in Korea sugar coat it(Anna if you read this your still hot!!!). :lol: gp32_console

...and smoking is bad too.

 

[skeezix]

_Of course_ N doesn't think its cool for you to do what is legal and ethical.. they want the cash But company desires don't make law (thank god).. well, often they do, but not all the time The DMCA very specifically documents the legal ripping of things that are no longer in circulation, and if a company says 'no you can't do it'.. well, they'd better start supporting the thing or they're opening themselves up for a lawsuit.. I don't recall Wing Commander 1 saying in the packaging that I could only play it for 5 years....

jeff

 

[Draken]

I agree with the topic creater. I wouldn't download games that are still for sale in my country.
Old games that are not available to buy except from companies or people selling theirs, or are not available in my country, I download and play, even if I don't own the cart.

But yes, this is ethics and morality, I could just as well download a lot of gba games that are still for sale and run them, both is illigal.

But as said, the creators won't storm down your house and sue you.

 

[speedmike]

I agree with the topic creator.

I downloaded and payed for Half Life 2 via Steam, wich worked like a charm, a good example of how things should work.

I agree that it would be nice if more developers did the same, but the fact that a game is not for sale as a download does not make it ok to steal it. Classic rule: If u like it, Buy it!

As for classics emulation, I cant see the harm.

​

I just wanted to say that I hate steam! I had to buy HL2 twice!! because my steam account got messed up somehow and the only way I could play it and not wait weeks and weeks was to buy it again and make another steam account! I have steam so much!

I see no harm in emulation especially if you already own the system. who wants to drag all of that stuff around when they can just use say... a laptop to play 4 diffrent systems or a gp32 or gp2x. Go Emulation!