Eds Status On The Pandora Os - Disheartening


Pleng said:
Sorry don't want to get in on the Windows vs Linux debate but felt I needed (nah I guess I didn't need, perhaps I wanted...) to point out a couple of things...

EvilDragon said:
On the other hand, Windows is really bugging me since I switched to Linux mostly.
Want to update all apps on Linux? Simply do an upgrade. Finished.
On my Windows box, I have about 50 apps installed. Updating them means: Visiting every single website, downloading and running setup. Takes about a day to upgrade all those apps. A big Windows flaw, if you ask me.

Pretty much all Windows apps have an auto-update feature. And most can do updates without having to visit websites or download executables

There are also a lot of simple things that do annoy me on Windows:
As said, I have a lot of programs and therefore also have a lot of quickstart icons. They need about half the size of the taskbar. Of course, on the right, there's the tray - so in the middle there's very little space for the currently running tasks.
On Linux, this is easy: I simply put that to the top and keep my menu, quickstart items and trays on the bottom. On Windows? Not possible.

This is fixed on Windows 7. You can set icons to show themselves on the quickstart bat or not. There's a little button next to the quickstart which will display the hidden icons.

On old computers, Linux is also way better. The latest Linux still runs on old PIII machines. I have an optimized Arch Linux running. It only starts what I really need. I use a minimal GUI. The system runs snappier than another old P4 Windows machine.
Because you can't really optimize Windows. You can't really remove what you need. Yes, you can switch off services and things like that, but the plain GUI still needs a lot more CPU and RAM than an optimized Linux needs.

I tried using Ubuntu on my 5 year old Laptop (for uni work) and the display simply did not function correctly. The graphics driver didn't feature my screen's native resolution. Selecting a smaller resolution would make the display skewed, covered in red lines, doubled up and unusable, and selecting a mode bigger than the screen could handle meant I couldn't access the taskbar. The display didn't scroll when the mouse went off screen as I had come to expect from Linux distros.

Windows XP and 7 worked fine.

I had other issues trying to use KUbuntu on my mums PII 600 laptop. I couldn't find any way to downgrade the desktop environment, which was far to resource heavy for the laptop. Windows 2000 worked out of the box.

Maybe they're isolated incidents, who knows. But on the two recent occasions that I've tried to use Linux, I've had to resort back to Windows.


So, from an objective view:
Both Windows and Linux have flaws and both have their uses.
If you like flexibility and are not afraid of learning new things, Linux by far surpasses Windows.
If you like a standard system which everyone knows and that gets commercial support with drivers for the latest hardware, Windows surpasses Linux.

It's up to you :)

Now this is an opinion I can get along with. It's not often you hear Linux guys admit that Windows can be useful. And in fact, it's not often you hear Windows guys admit that Linux can be useful.

Anyway. There's no doubt in my mind that Linux was the best decision for the Pandora's OS

Linux was really the only option they had to make this device...
 
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Pleng said:
On my Windows box, I have about 50 apps installed. Updating them means: Visiting every single website, downloading and running setup. Takes about a day to upgrade all those apps. A big Windows flaw, if you ask me.
Pretty much all Windows apps have an auto-update feature. And most can do updates without having to visit websites or download executables

Well, that Auto-Update is mostly that they check the website theirselves, download and run setup. And they only do that when you start them.
I've never seen anything else (except for the normal Windows Setup and maybe some Adobe apps).

When I update a system, I simply want it to automatically update all installed things. And there's no way yet to do that in Windows.
I don't want to start each application manually so that it looks for updates, etc.

Maybe I'm using the wrong apps, but I use OpenOffice, Gimp, Canopus EDIUS, Filezilla, 7zip, etc.

No autoupdate here, only when program run and on user interaction.

There are also a lot of simple things that do annoy me on Windows:
As said, I have a lot of programs and therefore also have a lot of quickstart icons. They need about half the size of the taskbar. Of course, on the right, there's the tray - so in the middle there's very little space for the currently running tasks.
On Linux, this is easy: I simply put that to the top and keep my menu, quickstart items and trays on the bottom. On Windows? Not possible.
This is fixed on Windows 7. You can set icons to show themselves on the quickstart bat or not. There's a little button next to the quickstart which will display the hidden icons.

I don't want to hide the items. All I want is the Quickstart icons + Startmenu + Tray on the bottom and the tasklit on the top of the screen.
I'm using Windows 7 at work, as I need at least 10GB RAM :)

If this really works, then tell me how, I haven't found it out yet.

On old computers, Linux is also way better. The latest Linux still runs on old PIII machines. I have an optimized Arch Linux running. It only starts what I really need. I use a minimal GUI. The system runs snappier than another old P4 Windows machine.
Because you can't really optimize Windows. You can't really remove what you need. Yes, you can switch off services and things like that, but the plain GUI still needs a lot more CPU and RAM than an optimized Linux needs.
I tried using Ubuntu on my 5 year old Laptop (for uni work) and the display simply did not function correctly. The graphics driver didn't feature my screen's native resolution. Selecting a smaller resolution would make the display skewed, covered in red lines, doubled up and unusable, and selecting a mode bigger than the screen could handle meant I couldn't access the taskbar. The display didn't scroll when the mouse went off screen as I had come to expect from Linux distros.

Old hardware generally is well supported. But as said below: For quick, easy and commercial driver support, Windows is better.
You might have one weird laptop with a rare graphics adaptor. However, I didn't say it should run out of the box.
(Ubuntu is about as bloated and slow as Windows anyways, since it includes a lot of stuff you probably don't need).

On ALL old machines I tried to optimize Linux and Windows, Linux won. All the time.
Yes, you need to know what you're doing and how to help yourself.

To be fair, plain WinXP also had a lot of problems with Laptop graphic cards. Often they were OEM crippled cards where you need the driver from the manufacturer to make it work correctly. Yes, when you buy it, they are included. For Linux, someone needs to do that. The mainstream hardware is supported well, but not a special laptop-crippled graphics adapter.

When you want to use Linux, you should check what hardware is supported first.
No big deal, same for Windows: I have some hardware that didn't have XP drivers (too old) and never got some. An old serial HP 3D Spacemouse, for example. Could never get it to work on Windows. Do I blame Windows? Nope, it's a rare and old device and if the company doesn't support it anymore, you can't get it to run.

I had other issues trying to use KUbuntu on my mums PII 600 laptop. I couldn't find any way to downgrade the desktop environment, which was far to resource heavy for the laptop. Windows 2000 worked out of the box.
Maybe they're isolated incidents, who knows. But on the two recent occasions that I've tried to use Linux, I've had to resort back to Windows.

Nope, it's not an isolated incident. It's like trying to run Windows 7 on a P4: It doesn't work.
If you read yourself into Linux, you could find out that Ubuntu is meant for recent computers. It's probably the most bloated Linux distribution out there. Installing Kubuntu on a PII 600 is like installing Windows 7 on that system.
For minimal system, you need to get a minimal distribution. There are a lot out there, I do prefer Arch Linux. A bit more advanced to setup, but once you're used to Linux, you'll love it.

So, from an objective view:
Both Windows and Linux have flaws and both have their uses.
If you like flexibility and are not afraid of learning new things, Linux by far surpasses Windows.
If you like a standard system which everyone knows and that gets commercial support with drivers for the latest hardware, Windows surpasses Linux.
It's up to you :)
Now this is an opinion I can get along with. It's not often you hear Linux guys admit that Windows can be useful. And in fact, it's not often you hear Windows guys admit that Linux can be useful.

Oh, you will probably find quite a few of those when you talk to them :)
Each OS has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Linux is still some hacking around. Once someone who knows what he's doing set it up, everyone can easily use it.
But you first need to take some time (well, A LOT of time) to find out how it works and how to optimize it. Then you have probably one of the best systems there is. It's flexible, you can suit it to your likes.

Windows is definately better for normal users when you run it out of the box. However, you don't have the power to make it as flexible and optimized as a Linux system.
 
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DroneB Dev said:
isnt that a reply? XD. i didnt know your posts and signature were deleted/modified.

No, a reply for me is something more than "XD", one of my replies would contain point by point why I think he is wrong/right.

So you are the one changing my signature then?
 
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EvilDragon said:
Pleng said:
On my Windows box, I have about 50 apps installed. Updating them means: Visiting every single website, downloading and running setup. Takes about a day to upgrade all those apps. A big Windows flaw, if you ask me.
Pretty much all Windows apps have an auto-update feature. And most can do updates without having to visit websites or download executables

Well, that Auto-Update is mostly that they check the website theirselves, download and run setup. And they only do that when you start them.
I've never seen anything else (except for the normal Windows Setup and maybe some Adobe apps).

no, you're quite wrong, there's quite much software that update themself, without having to launch them... you know theses apps that setup an "update service"... you know that kind of bad behaviour that makes your system slow as hell to boot... I tend to call that kind of software viruses as they clog up my PC without valid reasons...
 
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Pleng said:
So, from an objective view:
Both Windows and Linux have flaws and both have their uses.
If you like flexibility and are not afraid of learning new things, Linux by far surpasses Windows.
If you like a standard system which everyone knows and that gets commercial support with drivers for the latest hardware, Windows surpasses Linux.

It's up to you :)

Now this is an opinion I can get along with. It's not often you hear Linux guys admit that Windows can be useful. And in fact, it's not often you hear Windows guys admit that Linux can be useful.

Anyway. There's no doubt in my mind that Linux was the best decision for the Pandora's OS
That's because he uses both :D

I started with MS and DR DOS, then to Windows, then Linux (Standard X11 and Motif, but pretty much only terminal), then to windows, now I'll be running both when I've got my Pandora if you include it as a pc in it's own right.

It really is what suites your needs most of the time. And if your need is, only using windows because that's what your used to then so be it.

In regards to Pandora, the fact it's running Linux, shouldn't be a big deal to the people who doesn't actually care what it's running, it should be simple enough for anyone. Especially with the other launchers, pnd etc. Most people don't say I'll only use a phone with Windows mobile, because I like and use windows. Why, because most phones are made to be easy enough for most people to use.
And in this regards I believe the Pandora will be easy enough for most of the tasks that people will use it for. It's not a radical four dimensional brainwave interface. Go to the menu select what you want to do, same as in Windows. It even has the clock in the same place :D (If you want it to be)
 
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megabyte said:
DroneB Dev said:
isnt that a reply? XD. i didnt know your posts and signature were deleted/modified.

No, a reply for me is something more than "XD", one of my replies would contain point by point why I think he is wrong/right.

So you are the one changing my signature then?

I changed your signature, I guess you want to know why ?.

Links to a site that contain pictures of dead people and other such paraphernalia are not wanted on these boards. We do have young kids that frequent these forums, And while they can view that sort of stuff anywhere else on the internet, We will NOT have it linked from here.

Could you now please remove it yourself.

Trooper
 
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Elwing said:
no, you're quite wrong, there's quite much software that update themself, without having to launch them... you know theses apps that setup an "update service"... you know that kind of bad behaviour that makes your system slow as hell to boot... I tend to call that kind of software viruses as they clog up my PC without valid reasons...

Okay, then please tell me how to enable that feature. I've got about 50 apps installed and want to tell the system to update them NOW!
Not just that few apps that use an autoupdater (which I disable as it REALLY wants to slow down the system).

All I want is to tell the system:
I've got a ton of apps. I'm going to grab some coffee, when I come back, all of them should be up-to-date.

So, if that's possible in Windows 7, please tell me how, I will most certainly try it out.
 
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trooper said:
megabyte said:
DroneB Dev said:
isnt that a reply? XD. i didnt know your posts and signature were deleted/modified.

No, a reply for me is something more than "XD", one of my replies would contain point by point why I think he is wrong/right.

So you are the one changing my signature then?

I changed your signature, I guess you want to know why ?.

Links to a site that contain pictures of dead people and other such paraphernalia are not wanted on these boards. We do have young kids that frequent these forums, And while they can view that sort of stuff anywhere else on the internet, We will NOT have it linked from here.

Could you now please remove it yourself.

Trooper
sadly thats his personal webpage, so you get what kind of person if he is making mock of that kind of pictures.

he is way beyond any heavy metal band over that sort of things.
actually his former webpages got down mostly because of the contents.

about the actual topic, well i use both systems, and i have no issue between both.
tell me when theres a winner meanwhile, can we get back talking about the pandora OS?
 
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I think ED point is there's no single standardized system for updating software on windows. Eg. no apt-get update or yum upgrade.

Regardless it's a moot point. Windows doesn't run on ARM.
 
Trey said:
I think ED point is there's no single standardized system for updating software on windows. Eg. no apt-get update or yum upgrade.

Regardless it's a moot point. Windows doesn't run on ARM.

its no use to push this, but win CE does!. XD (that counts as windows)
 
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DroneB Dev said:
trooper said:
megabyte said:
DroneB Dev said:
isnt that a reply? XD. i didnt know your posts and signature were deleted/modified.

No, a reply for me is something more than "XD", one of my replies would contain point by point why I think he is wrong/right.

So you are the one changing my signature then?

I changed your signature, I guess you want to know why ?.

Links to a site that contain pictures of dead people and other such paraphernalia are not wanted on these boards. We do have young kids that frequent these forums, And while they can view that sort of stuff anywhere else on the internet, We will NOT have it linked from here.

Could you now please remove it yourself.

Trooper
sadly thats his personal webpage, so you get what kind of person if he is making mock of that kind of pictures.

he is way beyond any heavy metal band over that sort of things.
actually his former webpages got down mostly because of the contents.

about the actual topic, well i use both systems, and i have no issue between both.
tell me when theres a winner meanwhile, can we get back talking about the pandora OS?

Er... disgusting... I'm a little bit embarrased this Megabyte guy is from latin america :(

He's not changing his signature; at least there it is still. And appearently he's making some kind of DoS attack on the forum... at least, he's saying so on the unnoficial blog. I really haven't noticed any difference to be honest.

So... ban?

And sorry for the off-topic-ness.
 
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What is the latest version of the kernel in which Wifi over SDIO works? Why not use this version until the SDIO issue in latest kernel is solved?
 
LastPucho said:
Er... disgusting... I'm a little bit embarrased this Megabyte guy is from latin america :(

He's not changing his signature; at least there it is still. And appearently he's making some kind of DoS attack on the forum... at least, he's saying so on the unnoficial blog. I really haven't noticed any difference to be honest.

So... ban?

And sorry for the off-topic-ness.

Who in his right mind thinks that admitting to start a DDoS attack on the forum is a good idea? I'll quote his words here in case he decides to delete it later from his personal page:

megabyte said:
Like I said, one of the moderators changed my signature on the boards, I think that is really childish, so I decided to act childish too.

If you don't agree with my opinion that's fine, but don't edit my signature or delete my posts just because "you can", I told you don't mess with me, you never know who you might encounter on the other side of the keyboard.

The attack will stop as soon as the moderator apologizes in public for changing my signature.

Peace

This behaviour is beyond pathetic.
 
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aq21 said:
What is the latest version of the kernel in which Wifi over SDIO works? Why not use this version until the SDIO issue in latest kernel is solved?
i think it worked but it was a closed source driver so it was nearly useless for further development
 
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EvilDragon said:
Elwing said:
no, you're quite wrong, there's quite much software that update themself, without having to launch them... you know theses apps that setup an "update service"... you know that kind of bad behaviour that makes your system slow as hell to boot... I tend to call that kind of software viruses as they clog up my PC without valid reasons...

Okay, then please tell me how to enable that feature. I've got about 50 apps installed and want to tell the system to update them NOW!
Not just that few apps that use an autoupdater (which I disable as it REALLY wants to slow down the system).

All I want is to tell the system:
I've got a ton of apps. I'm going to grab some coffee, when I come back, all of them should be up-to-date.

So, if that's possible in Windows 7, please tell me how, I will most certainly try it out.
try windows update. It really works. It updates itself with.......nothing but bullshit, but hey it works.
 
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aq21 said:
What is the latest version of the kernel in which Wifi over SDIO works? Why not use this version until the SDIO issue in latest kernel is solved?
I believe it's a later kernal.
The problem with just moving to a newer one is that there could just as easily be things that was working broken in it.
That's why their trying to back port the code from the newer kernal to the one their currently using.
It's a bit late in the day to switch now, and try to make sure that everything that was working still is, and fix things that end up being broken.
After release, I'm sure they'll move to a newer kernal even if they get the working SDIO back ported.
 
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RajTakhar said:
can mplayer play mkv files without any issues - is this awaiting h264 update

I think it can with correct codec - but its unclear x264 (MKV) and h264

anyone have any ideas
It's important to make the difference between container and codec. The container format doesn't matter, so much. MKV is just a container format, it can contain any type of video data (xvid, h.264, x.264, blah) as can AVI, or OGM. The important bit to the Pandora is the codec. xvid is a more processor friendly codec, and it's easier for CPUs to decode without hardware help. Until the hardware decoder is made available to us, any container with h.264 or x.264 video will not play properly. Xvid should play OK, as long as the bitrate isn't too high.

x.264 and h.264 are actually two different implementations of the same codec. h.264 is Apples closed source variant, and x.264 is the open source equivalent.
 
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DroneB Dev said:
aq21 said:
What is the latest version of the kernel in which Wifi over SDIO works? Why not use this version until the SDIO issue in latest kernel is solved?
i think it worked but it was a closed source driver so it was nearly useless for further development

I don't think that's correct. The closed source driver would have the same SDIO problem that the open source driver has, unless that backup communications method works better with the closed source (kinda fuzzy on this one). And, as far as I've read, while the SDIO issue is being looked into by other groups, and patches have been submitted for newer kernels, there has not been a fix to date that does not break something else, like the ability to use SD cards. What ED had said about the newer kernels was that the DSP was supported in a newer kernel version, and somebody else mentioned that their beagleboard was much more stable under the latest available kernel.

ED also stated that they will not be moving to a new kernel until sometime after the unit ships. I really think that this is necessary, as there would be too much work involved in bringing everything already done to a new kernel and testing it thoroughly. If they did move to a newer kernel, it's likely that we would receive something that doesn't have a lot of the features implemented in the working kernel.

In terms of the OS itself, I wouldn't have pre-ordered if it wasn't running Linux. To me, it is by far the most useful OS. There are so many things that you can do with it, and it will be as useful on a small device like the pandora as is on my desktop, especially since I use mostly terminal apps, firefox, vlc and amarok.

EDIT: @borgqueenx - ED was talking about updating all apps, not just the OS. Windows update is terrible, and can really get in your way, by default. Under most Linux distros there is a simple way to update absolutely everything that's out of date. In Arch Linux, for example, the command is 'pacman -Syu'.

On the h.264 question, I had a similar question about 480p h.264 videos, but the answer was that under the current pandora kernel, these will not work. Newer kernels enable the DSP; so when we upgrade the kernel, we will be able to use the omap-mplayer which has support for h.264.
 
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