Does The Openpandora Team Need To Communicate More?

[b._.o._.b]

When you've got ten thousand things to do, you can't possibly do them all at once. A lot of them have to go into the "we'll sort that out when we get there" category. A lot of things that you think are important are either A. not really that important compared to everything else that has to be dealt with, or B. are things that chronologically have to come after other things happen, and those other things haven't happened yet. Even now, only a few days from pre-order, things like the keyboard layout or whether or not the case will be shiny are not very high on the list of things which need to be sorted out.

The last time people started bitching about the lack of updates, I started the Official Dev Updates thread (proving that they were already getting the very updates they were clamoring for), and they shut up. Now people are bitching about the "lack of updates" again. I'll admit that there haven't been a ton of updates in the last couple weeks, but there legitimately hasn't been much to say. What do you want me to do, make stuff up?



We are not bitching, but just want to be informed. You said there are ten thousand things to do.. tell us what they are doing. I had the impression everything for production was finished and on hand and only the case mold needs to arrive to continue production. But something tells me that is not the case.
If someone at my work tells me, "can't talk to you, I'm so busy. Working late yesterday, had only 4 hours of sleep". I am pretty sure he/she hasn't got it under control and that would make me worried if deadlines are kept.

Small questions like "can we use paypal" (a question that is important from a buyers pov) takes ages to answer.
Craig would call paypal a couple of days ago, and then silence... 3 days until pre-ordering and there is still no response. Did he call?
For some people this is a big thing. I'm not speaking for myself here. I can pay with creditcard if I want, and also decided not to pre-order.

Is his not responding a sign of too busy (out of control), don't care (if so why don't just tell no) or just a chaotic personal nature?
I like the communication style of EvilDragon. He is relaxed, and I always have the feeling he tells everything he knows even if he made a mistake or something didn't work out.
When Pandora is launched I will probably buy it from gp2x.de because of this.

 

[Squidge]

We are not bitching, but just want to be informed. You said there are ten thousand things to do.. tell us what they are doing. I had the impression everything for production was finished and on hand and only the case mold needs to arrive to continue production. But something tells me that is not the case.

Not everything can be made public, but I will say there is still a lot of software to do. That is the main thing now (well, that and talking to case mfr's). There might also be some things that Craigix isn't telling us (or can't), for whatever reason.

 

[ashdjones]

WOW, some of those choices for communications in the poll really are rich.

Sorry, I have a daft sense of humour - I was going to put 'Personal Visit' but it sounded rather suggestive!

So, this 'intelligent' poll. I want to vote No-they do not need to communicate more, and then I HAVE to say how I want them to communicate more...

I worded it carefully: 'What form would you prefer communication to take?' isn't a loaded question (though it assumes people want some form of communication).

 

[ljones]

I guess the real reason why those making the pandora don't produce tons of replies and information is because they can't! Making the pandora must be a tortureous and complicated task, especially and I think I read this elsewhere they have jobs to go to as most of us here will.

So they aren't going to have ages to spend on pandora. I mean just think about it this way with regards to postings on websites and forums - when you last used your computer to reply to some messages, chances were that when you started to read you thought "Ah, I'll be about 5 mins". Next thing you know you look at the clock and you've been doing this and that for the last 3 hours.

My point is that the amount of time they have must be really small. Pandora is a complicated thing, you just can't wave a magic wand and it's there all ready and all formed overnight. I wonder how many here could start off a project in our spare time like this and carry it all the way through to completion? I'd be willing to bet very few would.

And let's face facts. Just imagine if this computer was being made by sony or nintendo or (yuk!) microsoft. I mean what would you expect - you wouldn't get steve ballmer posting! Demands to a sony, nintendo or microsoft forum would be ignored. You could write 1000 letters and they'd all end up in the bin. So the pandora team has really been very responsive.

>The quality of the end-product is going to be up there with Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony

I hope not -- Microsoft, nintendo and sony's stuff is awful. I'd say that pandora's quality will be *above* these. Just thinking of pysical things I remember once I forget what brand it was now inside an expensive audio amplifier. You'd expect high quality components and a well designed amplifier, yes? Nope - the design was abysmal using a couple of run-of-the-mill amplifier chips of the kind you'd expect to find in a £10 clock radio. My point I'm trying to make is brand name dosen't equal quality.

One more thing - there seems to be a lot of unhappiness and stress around here. So, in order to reduce it follow these instructions;

1. Inhail deeply through the nose.
2. Hold breath for a few seconds.
3. While sticking the tounge out as far as possible and opening the eyes wide, then exhail through the open mouth making a loud "haaaaaa" sound. !

Hehehe !

ljones

 

[Turnip]

I think they should communicate less. Speculation is way more fun than knowing stuff.

 

[Chip]

Small questions like "can we use paypal" (a question that is important from a buyers pov) takes ages to answer.
Craig would call paypal a couple of days ago, and then silence... 3 days until pre-ordering and there is still no response. Did he call?

Have you ever tried to get hold of an actual person (or even an email written by one) at Paypal? They only communicate in auto-generated form letters. Considering the risk involved, it's very sensible to hold off on accepting Paypal without certain assurances.

Try to use just a tiny bit of common sense here. If there was an update to be had, don't you think we'd have it? Would you be happier if Craig or ED posted a message every 12 hours saying "There's nothing new to report", just so you can be totally up-to-date on the complete lack of new information?

 

[ashdjones]

Actually, the posts on this forum have given me the impression they know more than they tell. This is just the impression I get, I don't think it's entirely true however. The tone often suggests, to me, that the team are surprised about the information people would request from them.

Either way, it seems like there's some discrepancy between the expectations of the development team and (a large group of) us (the punters).

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

Small questions like "can we use paypal" (a question that is important from a buyers pov) takes ages to answer.
Craig would call paypal a couple of days ago, and then silence... 3 days until pre-ordering and there is still no response. Did he call?

Have you ever tried to get hold of an actual person (or even an email written by one) at Paypal? They only communicate in auto-generated form letters. Considering the risk involved, it's very sensible to hold off on accepting Paypal without certain assurances.

Try to use just a tiny bit of common sense here. If there was an update to be had, don't you think we'd have it? Would you be happier if Craig or ED posted a message every 12 hours saying "There's nothing new to report", just so you can be totally up-to-date on the complete lack of new information?

Have you ever tried to contact PayPal? Every time I have, I've had an email back within 24 hours from an actual person. They've got these nifty things called telephones now, too, so you can be talking to an actual person in about 10-15 minutes. Go figure! :lol:

I'd agree with bob on this issue. If they've got nothing to tell us, that's fine, but with 3 days before the 30th and not a word on how to pay, where to preorder, the procedure, etc., that's just crap. The team knows the answers to these questions; if they didn't, there wouldn't be a preorder. So why not take 15 minutes out of the day to mass-mail everyone so no one's going in blind? The whole thing is being handled unprofessionally, IMO. It's not like this is a new emulator, a case, or even a GUI; I can understand a delay on those, they take time. This, though, wouldn't.

 

[Username]

1. Where'd you get your time machine? I'm not saying that the quality won't be up there, but I can't say that it will since I (and you, and everybody else in the world) have not seen the final product.

No one has seen the final product because it isn't finished yet (I thought this one was a no-brainer).

2. I still don't understand how your comparison made sense just because you think the quality of the Pandora will be up to par with products from Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony.

The PSP, for example, has several issues such as the analog nub being too fragile, the glaring screen, and the square button jam (all of which Sony knew about but didn't bother fixing until later versions). Careful testing has to be done to assure that they don't have to release newer versions to fix these problems.

3. Who says that a great product and lots of pre-release news/photos are mutually exclusive? This is another common thing I've noticed said by people who say we have gotten more than enough information. Craig already spends 2 hours a day on here. Does that mean that the Pandora will now end up being a mediocre product? Of course not. It only takes a few minutes to update a blog.

He answers as many questions as he can with the timeframe he's given. Maybe if he HAD a time machine (like the one you mentioned earlier), he might have more time to answer questions for you. Though I kinda wish I was better informed, I'm not gonna cry and rant about it on the forums without thinking ahead of why I'm not better informed. Time cannot just get magically pulled out of the Land Before Time, like you seem to think it can.

By the way, for time machines, see here.

 

[Chip]

If they've got nothing to tell us, that's fine, but with 3 days before the 30th and not a word on how to pay, where to preorder, the procedure, etc., that's just crap. The team knows the answers to these questions; if they didn't, there wouldn't be a preorder.

You know the answers to those questions too, you're just not happy with them, so you keep asking.

Want some ironclad, 100% guaranteed-to-work ordering instructions? Here they are:

• Wait for the Preorder email that will be sent between now and the 30th.
• Go to one of the sites specified in that email.
• Enter your credit card number and shipping info.
• Wait 6-8 weeks for the postman to deliver your Pandora.

Anybody capable of following those simple instructions will get their Pandora.

And as for contacting Paypal, yes. About five years ago I got stiffed on an Ebay auction. It was only for about $15 for a used book, but I emailed Paypal about getting my money back. At the time, Ebay payments were "insured" up to $200, though I don't think they still offer that guarantee. I got a form letter asking me to fill out an online form, which I did. After several days with no response, I sent another email and got the same form letter again. I tried a couple different email addresses and only got form letters referring me to either the first address, or the claim form that I had already filled out. I gave up after a week or so. It was only $15 after all.

Perhaps they're more responsive now. Perhaps they respond quicker when you're not asking them to follow through with their guarantees. All I know is that I've had problems with them, and so have a lot of other people.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

If they've got nothing to tell us, that's fine, but with 3 days before the 30th and not a word on how to pay, where to preorder, the procedure, etc., that's just crap. The team knows the answers to these questions; if they didn't, there wouldn't be a preorder.

You know the answers to those questions too, you're just not happy with them, so you keep asking.

Want some ironclad, 100% guaranteed-to-work ordering instructions? Here they are:

• Wait for the Preorder email that will be sent between now and the 30th.
• Go to one of the sites specified in that email.
• Enter your credit card number and shipping info.
• Wait 6-8 weeks for the postman to deliver your Pandora.

Anybody capable of following those simple instructions will get their Pandora.

And as for contacting Paypal, yes. About five years ago I got stiffed on an Ebay auction. It was only for about $15 for a used book, but I emailed Paypal about getting my money back. At the time, Ebay payments were "insured" up to $200, though I don't think they still offer that guarantee. I got a form letter asking me to fill out an online form, which I did. After several days with no response, I sent another email and got the same form letter again. I tried a couple different email addresses and only got form letters referring me to either the first address, or the claim form that I had already filled out. I gave up after a week or so. It was only $15 after all.

Perhaps they're more responsive now. Perhaps they respond quicker when you're not asking them to follow through with their guarantees. All I know is that I've had problems with them, and so have a lot of other people.
Yeah, sure, search "anything" sucks and you'll get a myriad of hate sites. You're basing your opinion of a service from something that happened 5 years ago? Wow. And no, I don't know the answers to ANY of those questions, and neither do you. If you really are in the know, why don't you let us know what payment options will be available? How about the sites we go to preorder for our respective countries, hmm? Shipping options? Exactly.

The point here is that the team knows what they'll be doing, but won't inform us. Despite your qualms, you know as well as I that it takes a few minutes to send out an email, so why not? There's obviously enough people here who care, as seen by this poll. Sometimes running a business isn't about doing whatever the hell you want because you think (or know) you're right, it's about making sure your customers are satisfied. And right now, half of them aren't.

 

[Squidge]

Have you ever tried to contact PayPal? Every time I have, I've had an email back within 24 hours from an actual person. They've got these nifty things called telephones now, too, so you can be talking to an actual person in about 10-15 minutes. Go figure! :lol:

I've tried to contact Paypal before and usually get a response between 24 and 48 hours that is completely useless. It's typically an slightly edited version of a template, which doesn't answer my questions. I then reply, and have to wait another 24-48 hours to get another reply. It can easily go on for a week before you get an answer thats usable.

Secondly, there phone service is next to useless. Each time I ask anything its either "check on our website" or "you'll need to send an email via our contact us form so we can confirm your identity".

I'd agree with bob on this issue. If they've got nothing to tell us, that's fine, but with 3 days before the 30th and not a word on how to pay, where to preorder, the procedure, etc., that's just crap. The team knows the

All will be disclosed in due time. Think about Paypal for a minute - if Craigix is trying to get something sorted, that might be the reason behind the delay. Mass-emailing everyone with "here's the details" and then an hour before pre-order saying "actually, those details have now changed" would annoy a lot of people. It's far better to just wait until everything is confirmed and send out the mail then, even if it's an hour before pre-order time.

QUOTE
Sometimes running a business isn't about doing whatever the hell you want because you think (or know) you're right, it's about making sure your customers are satisfied. And right now, half of them aren't.


How do come to that? If you mean by your poll, then 95 people would like more information. Thats hardly half of the customers, and it doesn't mean they are not satisfied. They just want a little more info.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

I'd agree with bob on this issue. If they've got nothing to tell us, that's fine, but with 3 days before the 30th and not a word on how to pay, where to preorder, the procedure, etc., that's just crap. The team knows the

All will be disclosed in due time. Think about Paypal for a minute - if Craigix is trying to get something sorted, that might be the reason behind the delay. Mass-emailing everyone with "here's the details" and then an hour before pre-order saying "actually, those details have now changed" would annoy a lot of people. It's far better to just wait until everything is confirmed and send out the mail then, even if it's an hour before pre-order time.

As seen in the above post, I've got some disagreements as to their customer service, so I'll leave that one aside.

As for this statement, that would be acceptable. But from the way people close to the team such as Chip are talking, a decision has already been made and everything's straightened out, we're just waiting around for nothing. If there's an issue with ANYTHING, that's a fine reason to wait to send out the email. But if it's just a matter of waiting until "XX:XX O'Clock", then that's a bit frustrating.

 

[Squidge]

As for this statement, that would be acceptable. But from the way people close to the team such as Chip are talking, a decision has already been made and everything's straightened out, we're just waiting around for nothing. If there's an issue with ANYTHING, that's a fine reason to wait to send out the email. But if it's just a matter of waiting until "XX:XX O'Clock", then that's a bit frustrating.

I hardly think it's a "wait until X". If craig can do something to ensure more sales before pre-order time, he's obviously going to do it. More likely it's just he doesn't want to send info out and then change it again later.

 

[b._.o._.b]

You know the answers to those questions too, you're just not happy with them, so you keep asking.

Want some ironclad, 100% guaranteed-to-work ordering instructions? Here they are:

• Wait for the Preorder email that will be sent between now and the 30th.
• Go to one of the sites specified in that email.
• Enter your credit card number and shipping info.
• Wait 6-8 weeks for the postman to deliver your Pandora.

Anybody capable of following those simple instructions will get their Pandora.

I just looked into my crystal ball and I'm pretty sure this scenario will not happen
Paypal or not, is not the biggest issue, some solid statements about pre-ordering a couple of weeks before would have been wise imo.

I think Squidge is right though, the "we want more info" voters can be pretty satisfied with everything and only want a bit more info.
If you compare the openness of this team with GPH, there is a lot more info to and involvement from the community so kudos to them. If you compare the openness of this team with openmoko I think they can learn a lot from that team. They made a lot of mistakes, and always try to do their best to keep everybody informed.

It could be there are some things Craig can't tell us due to contracts with vendors, suppliers. I think we can all accept that, would be nice to know the subjects he can't reveal openly though.
Anyway it is their project, they've taken some major risk investing money into it and they like it to be a success just as we do. I want a Pandora rather today than tomorrow, but I can wait. Wait until this unexperienced team has showed they can produce something that I can hold in my hands.
I also don't really mind the lack of professionalism from the team, that makes the bumpy ride somehow even more interesting. Would be nice to get some more details about that ride, and not having to wait for the memoirs of Craig.

A big part of the community likes to have more info, so it's up to the team to do the next step.. or not..

 

[Chip]

But from the way people close to the team such as Chip are talking, a decision has already been made and everything's straightened out, we're just waiting around for nothing. If there's an issue with ANYTHING, that's a fine reason to wait to send out the email. But if it's just a matter of waiting until "XX:XX O'Clock", then that's a bit frustrating.

What is really frustrating is your insistence that all of this stuff is being deliberately hidden from you. I have no idea how you got that impression, but it is not true. I don't know whether or not Paypal will be accepted, and I doubt Craig knows for sure yet either. We've explained the problems with Paypal, and Craig is looking into it. There is nothing else to say. Stamping your foot and repeating "But I wanna know!" is not going to resolve the situation any faster.

As for your other questions, they are irrelevant. Orders will probably be accepted from GABX.com, GP2X.de, and whatever the Turkish site is. There may be additional sites, but maybe not. Either way, it doesn't matter because you'll find out at the same time as everybody else.

Shipping will be minimal, since the Pandoras will ship from either Canada or the US. Figure $10-$20 unless you want it overnighted. Possibly less if there ends up being a US shipper and they use USPS.

 

[nubie]

And as for contacting Paypal, yes. About five years ago I got stiffed on an Ebay auction. It was only for about $15 for a used book, but I emailed Paypal about getting my money back. At the time, Ebay payments were "insured" up to $200, though I don't think they still offer that guarantee. I got a form letter asking me to fill out an online form, which I did. After several days with no response, I sent another email and got the same form letter again. I tried a couple different email addresses and only got form letters referring me to either the first address, or the claim form that I had already filled out. I gave up after a week or so. It was only $15 after all.

They held up my bank for $20, I changed bank accounts and email addresses (not just for them).

To be fair this was about 8 years ago and they had a major re-structuring and have merged with eBay (you think they could give a discount instead of ripping you off on both sites, meh, whatever.)


On the subject of time frame. I thought they were scrambling to finalize all sorts of parts orders? That takes a freaking long time. (If you want to learn about it read the candid one man saga at dpcars.net of the prototype build, it is in the PAST section. One company promising what they can't deliver can nearly ground a project for months. As it already has the Pandora and the analog nubs/volume slider/whatever else.)

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

But from the way people close to the team such as Chip are talking, a decision has already been made and everything's straightened out, we're just waiting around for nothing. If there's an issue with ANYTHING, that's a fine reason to wait to send out the email. But if it's just a matter of waiting until "XX:XX O'Clock", then that's a bit frustrating.

What is really frustrating is your insistence that all of this stuff is being deliberately hidden from you. I have no idea how you got that impression, but it is not true. I don't know whether or not Paypal will be accepted, and I doubt Craig knows for sure yet either. We've explained the problems with Paypal, and Craig is looking into it. There is nothing else to say. Stamping your foot and repeating "But I wanna know!" is not going to resolve the situation any faster.Ummm...

If they've got nothing to tell us, that's fine, but with 3 days before the 30th and not a word on how to pay, where to preorder, the procedure, etc., that's just crap. The team knows the answers to these questions; if they didn't, there wouldn't be a preorder.

You know the answers to those questions too, you're just not happy with them, so you keep asking.That's what's got me pissed right now. You see the disparity between those two statements?

 

[ashdjones]

I think Chip means the answer to the question is 'I don't know'.

 

[closer013]

Seriously lay off the team for christ's sake! Bitching on these forums about "we need info/bawwwwwwwwwwwwww paypal/the N64 emulator has a chance of not autofellating me" is NOT making any positive effect on this community. CALM DOWN! Wait a few days, then make a decision. No one is forcing you to buy one OR post here...