Did I miss something or...

[matzesu]

So if you only want to drive every morning to the Backer or to work, and you are Loneley, its better to have a Electrical Bycicle than to drive a Tesla whit hundreds of km range and 2500 kg Weight

For my thought, this Teslas are way too heavy, its needs a Electric Car thats far lighter.. why would you need Tesla Arcade or other things that cost weight in a Car??

Therefore: A Electric Bike is the Way to go: Weight about 25 kg, the Batterie ditnt have to be that big than on the Tesla, and you also can use Roads that are forbidden for Cars..

If the E-Motor only supports you up to 25 kmh, its still counts as a Bycicle in Germany, whit every Advanced a normal Bycicle have,
There are also E-Bikes whit 45 kmh, but they need insurance, a Licence Plate and they have to drive on the Road..

 

[ible]

i don't think the physics works out the way you think. losses aren't that bad in summer (and depends on how warm you heat the car in winter).

Electric vs. Diesel vs. Natural Gas: Which Bus is Best for the Climate?

Battery electric buses – the people’s electric vehicle – are becoming more and more common. An increasing number of transit agencies – large and small – are making announcements about purchasing electric buses and putting them into operation. The obvious benefit of electric buses is that they don’t

blog.ucsusa.org

 

[elw3]

Look when i hear a bunch of big sites and companys claiming its so efficient and on the other hand a bunch of electro nerds claim its not i sure trust the nerds.

 

[levi]

Just for the record: Power to gas IS what is used to store energy from wind turbines, not batteries.

I doubt this, but what do I really know? All I can tell is that wikipedia has a list of power storage solutions that doesn't include power-to-gas, and says that most capacity is served by hydroelectric solutions (pumping water up into the mountains, in the main). I dare say that for the explicit solution of energy management from some wind turbines they may well be using power to gas, but I don't think they're doing that here since a month of two back we had large scale power cuts due in part to the unexpected offlining of a set of wind turbines, unless it was a sudden failure in a biogas generator fed from a p2g process I guess (but it wasn't reported that way).

 

[levi]

i don't think the physics works out the way you think. losses aren't that bad in summer (and depends on how warm you heat the car in winter).

I must admit I'm a little suspicious of all these new electric cars that cool the battery to improve discharge characteristics, and testlas even supercool the battery on the way to a supercharger to make them easier to charge. But as far as I can tell it hasn't affected their km per MW ratings enough to make them less efficient than electric cars of a few years ago, so I guess it can't take a lot of energy to do the cooling that they end up doing (I guess they're just dissipating heat that builds up naturally via a liquid cooling loop to the radiator, rather than actually building a refrigerator circuit to get the temperatures below ambient, which would fit with the claims from Renault at the launch of their new Zoe where they explained they're using the interior heat system to keep the battery about right)

 

[FBnil]

I don't have a car and my partner has a bicycle. We're pretty carbon neutral.

.. and spiders... you ride spiders in Menzoberranzan, right?

 

[elw3]

Well those wind turbines that are too far away from the power grid do this, starting from a certain distance the cable has more losses than the production process. And gas has almost no loss on transfer so they made a pipe there.
But then they use the gas as gas, not as power storage.
But thats not the right wike page i think, this _storages_ are for supporting the energy grid and prevent downtime when a power plant fails rather than an actuall storage.
Consider natural resources are weather dependent, imagine a solar collector gatherhing energie over the summer and then realeasing it in winter. Size and cost of such battery would be immense, wheras a gas system is a one time investment that can store an nearly unlimited amount of energy.

 

[Grench]

I read engineering articles on occasion. I am familiar with several forms of energy storage. The term 'battery' is assumed to mean a chemical battery, but can be used to describe any energy storage device.

Chemical Batteries - fast to store and recover. Mobile. Compact. Expensive. Not as efficient as you would like to think.

Kinetic Batteries - flywheels mostly. Inexpensive. Fairly efficient - direct to/from electrical without steam stage. Not overly mobile.

Thermal Batteries - hot stuff - molten salt solar for example. Usually used for steam to electrical generation.

Potential Gravity Batteries - storing energy by stacking stuff high. Hydroelectric dams mostly.

Potential Pressure Batteries - take a gas and compress it. Use it to turn a generation shaft on exit. Giant caverns of modest pressures can be used. Not very efficient - leakage and volume requirements.

Fuel Cells, hydrolysis, water, hydrogen storage. Seems simple, but is actually VERY difficult. Hydrogen is very very difficult to store in substantial quantities.

Power to gas - an interesting concept. Has yet to cross 50% efficiency. Appears to be a 'sustainability excuse' for building more natural gas power generation plants.

What did I miss? Each has advantages - each has disadvantages. The most practical one depends a bit on where you need to store the energy and how fast you need to store/recover it. A flywheel can reach upwards of 85% round trip efficiency (Energy in to energy out.) Very few chemical batteries can even come close to that.

 

[elw3]

Flywheels really improved a lot recently, carbon disks in vacuum chambers spinnig faster than sound, hell yea.
Ive seen an article claiming over 90% for it. But reading this thread lets me more and more think all this numbers are pulled out of someones ass.

 

[Grench]

MIASS
Miscellaneous Information Access Sub-System.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

.. and spiders... you ride spiders in Menzoberranzan, right?

Lizards.

 

[elw3]

Btw you mentioning of hydrogen reminds me: Methane is easier to store than hydrogen BUT also still leaks, far less, but yes i must admit that my car constandly emmits methane. As much as a solid fart maybe....
None of these storage methods appears to be an ideal solution for long amounts of time.

 

[rSl]

Unser Windgas im Detail

www.greenpeace-energy.de

shows the power to gas concept. (german text only)

 

[Grench]

None of these storage methods appears to be an ideal solution for long amounts of time.

If you want to accumulate and store lots of energy over a very long time - hundreds of millions of years even - coal seems to work. Not clean by any stretch or claim of marketing genius, but as far as 'long term energy storage' goes, it's hard to beat.

Yes, it is possible to pump huge sums of energy (from wherever) into chemical reactor systems to create hydrogen through electrolysis, crack CO2 apart to make pure carbon gas then add more energy to marry them into complex chains to create hydrocarbons that - when long enough and stable enough - can become a STP liquid fuel that could be run through an internal combustion engine. It is a long and inherently inefficient way to go for storing energy. The only real advantage is that it can, theoretically, be pumped into a 'normal car'.

 

[elw3]

It is done actually https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_to_liquids

@rSl thats quite ironic that those who protested against gas companies in the past now are a gas company.
I wonder if they make the industry better or if buisness makes greenpeace worse... in 50 years we might protest against greenpeace, imagine that!

 

[Grench]

It is done actually https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_to_liquids

Not exactly a 'green' process though. Yes, they are harvesting the natural gas (light hydrocarbons) from oil wells that they would otherwise have simply lit on fire - to light -most- of it on fire to generate energy to convert -some- of it into something resembling gasoline/diesel fuels at a few pilot or small scale processing plants. I don't see any realistic potential in this process for taking excess wind/solar/geothermal/hydro electricity to store it for later use. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[elw3]

Yes, the joke. You give this long comical sentence of how awful it is and yet someone in this world was like "hold my beer, we can use that there"

 

[rSl]

thats quite ironic that those who protested against gas companies in the past now are a gas company.
I wonder if they make the industry better or if buisness makes greenpeace worse... in 50 years we might protest against greenpeace, imagine that!

hopefully not.

Greenpeace Energy ist wirtschaftlich unabhängig von der gleichnamigen Umweltschutzorganisation. Der Verein Greenpeace e.V. hält als Gründungsmitglied lediglich fünf Genossenschaftsanteile. Ein Lizenzvertrag regelt die Verwendung des Namens und verpflichtet Greenpeace Energy, die Ökostrom-Kriterien von Greenpeace e.V. einzuhalten.

 

[levi]

If you want to accumulate and store lots of energy over a very long time - hundreds of millions of years even - coal seems to work. Not clean by any stretch or claim of marketing genius, but as far as 'long term energy storage' goes, it's hard to beat.

If you could make coal instead of releasing raw carbon dioxide into the atmosphere then it's effectively become a biofuel and only release the same amount of carbon dioxide that you originally embedded within the coal when you finally burned it, and presumably it'd have much less of the sulphites and other impurities that actual brown coal has. I'm a little fuzzy on the technicalities though; presumably those higher order hydrocarbons simply take more energy to make, and do you really get all of that back when you burn them?

 

[ible]

Look when i hear a bunch of big sites and companys claiming its so efficient and on the other hand a bunch of electro nerds claim its not i sure trust the nerds.

there's a cost to changing infrastructure and technology you use, which seems to be one of the reasons fossil car companies haven't adopted cleaner alternatives. but we'll achieve cost parity soon with battery EVs, not just on TCO. then we'll see how efficient CNG really is...