Designing The Gp2x's Successor - Hardware Selection Poll

[Epicenter]

I think a better option would be a true massive upgrade

• 20-60gb hard drive
• enough proc muscle for full speed psx, n64, gba emu
• enough muscle for dreamcast-level native apps
• better multimedia integration
• li-on battery (with affordable replacements/extras)
• include ac adapter & car adapter (or make available)
• keep 4:3 screen & resolution, but make a bit (brighter, better angles)

Otherwise it won't be worth the hassle to upgrade & gp2x can serve the people well in the intervening 2 years

The CPU and GPU in the Dreamcast are much too powerful for any portable devices currently available. Portable hardware like that in the GP2X or PDAs doesn't scale like desktop PC technology-- note how it wasn't dramatically slower 2 years ago! Most of what comes out in new PDA models, you'll note, are extra features like acceleration but overall CPU horsepower remains largely the same. (Note CPUs like the XScale at 624 MHz-- performancewise, you'll see the speed of a 312 MHz ARM9, but with more power consumption and heat output. Dumb, huh?)

A hard drive? That'll add bulk and drain power like there's no tomorrow. This is a portable game/multimedia device but not a laptop. The only reasonable solution is drives in the vein of what Apple uses in the iPod series but those are quite expensive.

A custom LiIon cell makes little sense since recharging AAs works fine and you can always get them. When a LiIon pack wears out, like any battery does, it'll be impossible to replace if GPH/GP isn't still making them.

An ARM9 @ 266 MHz+, with a 3D accelerator, should be able to handle full speed PSX emulation. The existing 200 Mhz ARM9 and no accelerator should be able to handle GBA emulation. N64 emulation will probably require an ARM11 at 300 MHz+ to run at full speed but could probably be achieved at 'decent' speed with a quick ARM9 and a 3D accelerator (The most important part.)

 

[dsraa]

I think a better option would be a true massive upgrade

• 20-60gb hard drive
• enough proc muscle for full speed psx, n64, gba emu
• enough muscle for dreamcast-level native apps
• better multimedia integration
• li-on battery (with affordable replacements/extras)
• include ac adapter & car adapter (or make available)
• keep 4:3 screen & resolution, but make a bit (brighter, better angles)

Otherwise it won't be worth the hassle to upgrade & gp2x can serve the people well in the intervening 2 years

ok...when you're done dreaming let us know so we can all go back to reality.

DSR

 

[markiej]

ok...when you're done dreaming let us know so we can all go back to reality.

I'm just saying that, until they can achieve some real milestones (like full speed psx, gba), they should probably focus on continued support and nurturing of the current unit. The development community & GPH will continue to incrementally improve the value proposition of the GP2X. and word of mouth will spread. Let that sustain for a couple more years. Then hit with an upgrade and a product that will really hit the mark on all fronts. The small increase in capability would certainly be nice, but it would alienate current gp2x users by drying up dev resources, and not substantially alter list of emu possibilities..

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Never. 4AA would be just about as bulky as a decent LiIon battery and would probably power it for longer.

li-on has more juice / weight than nimh.

(20-60GB hard drive)
Battery life = 0

there are some interesting hd-based PMP's out there that seem to do ok with battery life. Especially if you have multiple backlight options and low-cpu output on certain types of operation like mp3.

The CPU and GPU in the Dreamcast are much too powerful for any portable devices currently available.

the DC CPU was somewhere around 200mhz IIRC. The GPU was based on an NEC powerVR chip - 8 year old technology. ok lets shoot for voodoo 1/2 capability - since the resolution and tex mem can be low due to the small screen.

Are we talking about a GP2.5x (a different / incomptable system which has fewer choke points, but not massively more power), or a GP3X (debuts in 2008, order-of-magnitude improvement dream system)

 

[Shikaku]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Never. 4AA would be just about as bulky as a decent LiIon battery and would probably power it for longer.

li-on has more juice / weight than nimh.

At the much MUCH more expensive (and probably dangerous) quality cells, yes they can have more capacity. However, overall battery life is much longer if you can always have spares very easily...

 

[iignotus]

there are some interesting hd-based PMP's out there that seem to do ok with battery life. Especially if you have multiple backlight options and low-cpu output on certain types of operation like mp3.

Yeah, relying on a low voltage cpu (meaning low power) for a gaming handheld...

 

[DaveC]

li-on has more juice / weight than nimh.

That is the one advantage. There are too many disadvantages though like availability. It just isn't worth it.

That said I would go along with a dual power option. That would be 2-4 AAs with a custom Li-ion pack that would fit in the same battery compartment. So if you want to use the AAs you can, if you want to use the li-ion pack just pop it into the same spot that the AAs would have been.

The pack would be an optional accessory so that it wouldn't increase the cost of all units. As a matter of fact one could be made for the GP2X now, it would just have to be done. It would fit in the AA bay and snap in. A power jack would be fittied on the pack.

Actually the XBOX 360 has this dual power option, it can use AAs OR custom pack.

 

[markiej]

ok...when you're done dreaming let us know so we can all go back to reality.

In my feeble defense, I was thinking more in terms of "what would be ideal" for the next gen. it is a product positioning and marketing proposition as much as a HW one. It seems like the GP2X is really catching on, so best to let it fly for a while and plan way ahead for a semi-mind-blowing upgrade. instead of a tweak. I'll stop now - thanks-mb


ps - the only reason I was advocating li-ion was that it seems to be the method of choice for power-hungry portables. 4AA's can barely keep my camera on for more than a couple of hours. Maybe the world needs to come up with better standard batteries (a li-ion AA). But this is a layman talking so take it as you will.

 

[sam fisher]

The controllers. Their battery packs only fit the smallest of AA batteries. even a MM more makes them get jammed in.

 

[DaveC]

The controllers. Their battery packs only fit the smallest of AA batteries. even a MM more makes them get jammed in.

An add on pack would be slightly thicker. You wouldn't use the battery door with the li-ion pack it would snap in place of it.

 

[iignotus]

4AA's can barely keep my camera on for more than a couple of hours.

Flashbulb and lens movement takes a lot of power

 

[sam fisher]

The controllers. Their battery packs only fit the smallest of AA batteries. even a MM more makes them get jammed in.

An add on pack would be slightly thicker. You wouldn't use the battery door with the li-ion pack it would snap in place of it.

I know. I use the li-ion packs now. Before, with the AA battery packs, even slightly bigger AA's would jam. Still not sure which gives me better battery life.

 

[adb@pobox.com]

In a few more years access to open wifi should be a bit more pervasive. It would be nice to have as an option the ability to use the gp2x's successor as a browser. Since this gets away from the primary gaming aspect of the device I think it would make sense to make this an add-on. If the device itself were designed with a few well placed usb ports and latch points then you could plug in a treo style usb keyboard and a usb wifi adaptor (unless a wifi chipset is so cheap as to include it in the first place) If going with the hardware config #1 complete with a java runtime then things like google maps mobile might be possible to use.

 

[Epicenter]

They could just as easily sell WiFi as an addon with a small USB stick using a supported chipset, branded for the machine.

 

[OMars]

Option 1 seems to be the best but maybe there could be a separate cheaper model released along side. The cheaper model could be based after the gp32 except with 32MB RAM and X & Y buttons. It seems that I like GamePark's ideas, but i don't support the "three models" idea.. I believe a company should make a more powerful/expensive console and a cheaper/less powerful model.

 

[Epicenter]

Something weaker than the GP2X would really make no logical sense-- it's part of why the XGP Kids is such a bad idea and is getting such a poor reception. Probably the better approach is a slightly watered-down unit based on a cheaper but mostly intercompatible SoC. Samsung offers models with similar CPU and RAM functionality but lacking 2D/3D/MPEG4/floating point acceleration that would make sense as a 'low-end' unit but it really makes me think, 2 units is probably a misappropriation of attention and funds that would, in the end, just make the full unit most consumers will WANT more expensive and possibly recieve less quality control attention.

 

[DaveC]

Option 1 seems to be the best but maybe there could be a separate cheaper model released along side. The cheaper model could be based after the gp32 except with 32MB RAM and X & Y buttons. It seems that I like GamePark's ideas, but i don't support the "three models" idea.. I believe a company should make a more powerful/expensive console and a cheaper/less powerful model.

That would not be good. Devs would either have to make their stuff for the weaker system and not support the higher end one or they would make it for the high end one and leave out the low end users. Not a good idea.

My idea would just have one model but without all of the wifi, and other stuff that not everyone would use. CPU and RAM would be high powered. You would have expansion slots such as 2 SD card slots and USB for those that would want to add all of the other stuff like wireless etc. That way the cost would be low for everyone that just wanted it as a game console. If you want all of that other crap you could add it yourself.

 

[Orkie]

why the XGP Kids is such a bad idea and is getting such a poor reception

I have heard more positive discussion about the XGP kids than negative (if you count the fact that most of the negative comments are made by a few people who have a tendency to rant quite a bit about it).
That's not to say it is good to have two different handhelds by the same company, but also it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a disaster if there are (both the GBA and DS are still selling well for example).

 

[Epicenter]

I considered that, but the cost from adding WiFi is insignificant-- it's just a cheap chipset and a little piece of wire for an antenna. Connectivity is provided by USB, very inexpensive.

As for features; yes, I agree CPU and RAM shouldn't be weaker and acceleration or FP/Vector processing shouldn't be missing, which is why I said I think it's a bad idea to release a low end model that deviates largely from the design, for cost/QC and actual demand reasons. And of course, development-- the differences between the XGP and Mini drive me nuts.

What you could cut some costs on might be including decent onboard storage on the full model (~512mb?) and much less on the Lite model, no WiFi as well. But that's still not much of a price drop. It'd just cost more to make 2, so I would just stray from the whole concept altogether.

why the XGP Kids is such a bad idea and is getting such a poor reception

I have heard more positive discussion about the XGP kids than negative (if you count the fact that most of the negative comments are made by a few people who have a tendency to rant quite a bit about it).
That's not to say it is good to have two different handhelds by the same company, but also it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a disaster if there are (both the GBA and DS are still selling well for example).

The issue is more that the budget is extremely small for companies like GPH/GP so if they have 2 simultaneous production runs, both units will end up costing more to compensate for it. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why the XGP (Full) is esimated to cost $300. There's no reason for that cost except some sort of production overhead, the way I see it. It also does really complicate development.

 

[DaveC]

I considered that, but the cost from adding WiFi is insignificant-- it's just a cheap chipset and a little piece of wire for an antenna. Connectivity is provided by USB, very inexpensive.

What you could cut some costs on might be including decent onboard storage on the full model (~512mb?) and much less on the Lite model, no WiFi as well. But that's still not much of a price drop. It'd just cost more to make 2, so I would just stray from the whole concept altogether.
.

If you include as little as possible on the main board with wifi etc you would eventually save a significant amount. You could also have a small NAND like 128 MB and with the 2 SD slots you would have gigs of storage anyway. It is not like we are running out of NAND now with only 64 MB.
Don't forget it is not just the costs of the chips. The boards get more cluttered and assembly is slightly more involved and the chance for rejects is higher.

 

[BaDToaD]

OK so what we are looking at is the 3rd gen GP handheld and yet many of you are supporting a processor option that is not much faster than the first generation GP32 especially when some lucky GP32 owners can clock to as much as 250Mhz.

Go back 2 generations of any other console and tell me if you'd be happy with such a small ramp up in power. Imagine if the PS3 was only a little more powerful than the PS1

Personally I'd rather pay a couple of hundred quid for a product that had a decent processor. 400Mhz plus and a GPU or FPU rather than a slight upgrade to the current system.

The next gen GP handheld needs to be able to emulate first gen 3D consoles at full speed with FS0 or at worst FS1 or we might as well stick with what we've got.

Just my 2 penneth, flame away