Depressing

[Esn]

Was it this thread where I talk to a assembly house CEO, where I discussed Pandora and he telling me "expect to see it in 2011" for all 4k units.. btw I did have a follow up conversation on with the latest information that was given back in that thread, and he says it still be about the same time-line if not longer.

Well, he was certainly right about that.

@lobski, Craig ran an online video game store for some years.

The thing about trust is... I've noticed this over and over again. The more complicated the chain, the more failures and deceptions there are going to be. That's why most established businessmen stick to the simple and safe; fewer steps means less chance of the chain breaking along the way. It's also why the Kalashnikov is still the most used assault rifle in the world.

Anyway, I don't feel depressed at this point. These delays have been a constant for over two years now. What's the point of being depressed?

 

[lobski]

@lobski, Craig ran an online video game store for some years.

Yes, but running an online store compared to designing, creating, marketing, selling, mass producing and outsourcing a very complicated computer device is a lot more difficult!

 

[Sugar_Kane]

Come on guys, spaceballs is the greatest guy that's ever lived, now let's leave it at that

 

[u9i]

Was it this thread where I talk to a assembly house CEO, where I discussed Pandora and he telling me "expect to see it in 2011" for all 4k units.. btw I did have a follow up conversation on with the latest information that was given back in that thread, and he says it still be about the same time-line if not longer.

I remember this so clearly. You were very criticized for your statement, and yet here we are...

 

[WizardStan]

Was it this thread where I talk to a assembly house CEO, where I discussed Pandora and he telling me "expect to see it in 2011" for all 4k units.. btw I did have a follow up conversation on with the latest information that was given back in that thread, and he says it still be about the same time-line if not longer.

I remember this so clearly. You were very criticized for your statement, and yet here we are...

The guy spaceballs talked to couldn't have anticipated the nubs failing the way they did. If he anticipated 18 months to have the plastic case designed an delivered (actually 24 because we're still waiting on some of them), then I really want to know what company he works for so I can avoid it, because 18 months is entirely unreasonable and should not be anticipated. There are a few other things that have happened during this time that have caused delays which would have required total prescience to have accounted for.
Basically it really was a baseless claim at the time, which is why he was criticized. The fact that it is quickly becoming correct is meaningless because it relied on things that should not have happened. The only thing I can imagine is that the guy Spaceballs talked to said "it should happen by <some reasonable time> but since they're a small company likely to be jerked around, I'll double it to account for newbiness". If that had been the case, he probably wouldn't have been criticized as he was for the prediction, but he didn't: the prediction was given as an entirely legit time frame, a prediction that should have made any established company laugh; unfortunately, OPT is not an established company, they've been encountering resistance that shouldn't be happening, and wouldn't have happened if they had had previous relations with the manufacturers.

 

[spaceballs3000]

So what are you saying? That the Pandora is doomed? That the Pandora team will be sued into oblivion?

I can't predict the future, it's in Pandora's owner hands. My company manufactures hardware, so I know the hoops to jump through. When I read posts of something that doesn't sounds correct from the Pandora Team/or users here, I put my two cents in. The problem is most of the time the Pandora team argues back on my points (which they are usually wrong,) then all the fanboys jump in backing them up, thus raising the noise floor.

Are we all supposed to run screaming into the night because the company is going down in flames any moment?

Well that's 100% up to you, if you were to believe a company would be gone tomorrow, would you get for a refund now? or never?

I am not trying to pick a fight, I am asking these questions seriously. I am totally up for waiting, but I am not really into having my waiting (and money) go up in smoke. I would like to receive my Pandora sometime in the future, I don't really mind the other stuff. I was totally unaware of licensing issues, I thought that was why we avoided having the screen flip to become a tablet so the whole suing thing didn't happen.

I have no advice, all I know the safest best is paying via credit card, hopefully it will go better than last time.

 

[Exophase]

The real problem people have with you is that you're a troll who makes personal judgment calls he shouldn't, who then puts up strawman arguments to bolster his accusations..

 

[EvilDragon]

Wow, a lot of posts here... trying to give answers to the most important stuff.

@spaceballs3000:

Well, I probably couldn't have jumped the million dollar bandwagon, because I was one of the core teams, so I started with all of that long before preorders started.
If you think I did wrong by not making any contracts with Craig, etc.:
Maybe it's true, but I've never been the typical business guy, I'm just one who is happy to help and as far as I have enough money to buy my daily food, I'm fine.
I am not interested in becoming rich at all, I just want to achieve something. I never thought about doing contracts basically with a friend (like Craig).
The original plan was that we deliver shortly after preordering, the same it worked back then with the gp2x.
Craig helped me starting my shop with the gp2x (he sold me units for the price GPH gave when ordering 1000 units or more, even though I only bought 30 - 40 units at once from him).
I helped him with compos, etc. To be honest, Craig never betrayed me. There are things where I don't agree how he handles them and I would handle them differently, sure. But that's always the case when more people work on one project.

You might not know my background. I bought a GP32, became a fan and became newsposter for these boards.
Long before I even thought of opening a shop and selling them, I created the file archive so that everyone could download and upload games and programs for the devices for free.
I wanted to keep them free of annoying advertisements and that's what I did. I had monthly costs of about 50 EUR just for that, but it was my contribution to the community back then.
I can't code and enjoyed the programs other coders released, so wanted to give something back to the users, and that was the file archive.

Later, with the gp2x released, Craig suggested I should sell the gp2x in Germany, as people trust me and he can help me with cheap prices.
So I did that. My shop was (and still is) known for the good support. I repaired GP2X for free (or for costs of the parts) even if they had not been bought from my shop.
I also repaired a few Pandoras from users who bought them off eBay and the original buyer got them from Craig.
I don't care about that time spent, I just want to contribute to the community.

Now, about delays and production:
There were delays where we were responsible for (and I mentioned that multiple times) and delays were we not have been responsible for.
Of course, as WE are the ones where you bought it from, we are responsible for you.
Most of the delays we have been responible for happened because we didn't know better. Yes, we expected some things to happen way faster, but some things take time.
If we would've had more money for the project, we could've afforded more expensive companies. They usually help you better with their stuff, so our time estimations would've been a lot more accurate.

However, for the long delay which happened in the last few months, I don't think we really are responsible for.
The nubs were expected to have been tested and working. They weren't, and they failed. The only thing we could've done here was wait for them to be fixed.
Now they are, mass production has started, 2000 nubs arrive in Texas tomorrow. The rest might take until after christmas, as right, every company tries to rush out their products so production is pretty chaotic in these days.

Also, I don't think we can be responsible for the production company lying to us.
If they told us they want to wait with the production until the nubs are there, then that would be fine.
But they told us they produced all the boards, so that only the nubs need to be soldered there.
If that didn't happen, then it's not our fault. We've been lied to.

Now, we don't know yet if the boards really have been produced or not.
All we know is that Trey will visit them on Wednesday to check and that they have 2000 nubs.
They told us they can easily solder the nubs to the boards and send them before christmas.

And we know that they produce 900 working boards so far, so they are capable of doing this.

We also have been started to get quotations from different companies to ensure future production of the Pandora.
I will also try to get a credit to be able to produce Pandoras without preorder money.

Yes, we made a lot of mistakes. Yes, we are no pros. We learnt a lot.
We also had bad luck, for example with the nub company and maybe also the board company. That's something no one could've predicted.

You can be sure though I and the team do everything to make the Pandora happen.

Our enemy is the time. As long as the community sticks with us, production will happen.

I'm on your side. I try to achieve something for you. I will take all resposibility I have to, whatever happens.
But I whatever problems we run into, we will try to solve them.

 

[jocejrod]

that is both depressing and reassuring. hang in there ed.

i believe in you, and the team

 

[devhace]

It's the posts like those that make me stick around. I'm frustrated and there's nothing I can do about it, but I'm SO glad you guys actually give a sh!t about us. Thanks for being awesome.

 

[RotsiserMho]

Wow, a lot of posts here... trying to give answers to the most important stuff...

I don't post too much as I'm biding my time until my unit finally arrives, but I'd like to say that this is a great post and it's amazing what has already been accomplished with the Pandora starting basically from scratch. To see a team of (mostly) inexperienced people achieve so much is inspiring. Thanks for all your hard work and sticking with the project and working through supplier issues. I think you've done your best with what you've encountered. I wish you and the rest of the Pandora team much success!

 

[geise69]

ED. I have not pre-ordered a Pandora but ever since the talk of how the design should be I have been watching the journey. I want to let you know that I (and probably most of the people here) have the utmost respect for everything that you have put into this project and the open source scene as a whole. This is no disrespect to Craig, but if you were not involved in this project I honestly feel that more and more people would be requesting refunds. The way you have handled all the shit talking and other problems that have come along with this project is truly commendable. I hope you can relax a bit more this Christmas season and enjoy time with family and friends rather than having to come online and try to defend yourself from outlandish trolls.

 

[mhadf]

I read you saying that you are suffering health wise from all the stress of the project, and your commitment to it and us.

Seriously ED, you need to take a few days to relax. Which I know you haven't done yet.
I've been following the posts here and on the official pandora boards (though I've not registered yet) and you haven't stopped even when "taking a break".

And while I know everyone appreciates the hard work you and the team are putting in there is nothing you can do until at least Wednesday when Trey visits the board factory. You can't badger the companies anymore until after then.

 

[spaceballs3000]

@ED

... Also, I don't think we can be responsible for the production company lying to us.
If they told us they want to wait with the production until the nubs are there, then that would be fine.
But they told us they produced all the boards, so that only the nubs need to be soldered there.
If that didn't happen, then it's not our fault. We've been lied to. ...

Well that's fine and dandy, but in the end the customer holds you responsible not the assembly house. You guys have full control who you selected for assembly, so due diligence was in your court when you selected them. i.e. you take the risk when working with non-local companies, or companies that are small that can go bankrupt.

... You can be sure though I and the team do everything to make the Pandora happen. ...

I would expect you to say this because you have lots of time and money invested in this, as saying otherwise would be silly.

... Yes, we made a lot of mistakes. Yes, we are no pros. We learnt a lot.
We also had bad luck, for example with the nub company and maybe also the board company. That's something no one could've predicted. ...

Most everyone assumes this to be true, but we know mistakes have happened, and for some reason Pandora and mistakes happen a lot more often. What happens when the last mistake breaks the camels back? i.e. no money.

... I never thought about doing contracts basically with a friend (like Craig).

Friend or Family, when any significant amount of money is involved a contact is your friend when things hit the fan.

 

[WizardStan]

Friend or Family, when any significant amount of money is involved a contact is your friend when things hit the fan.

You have said one thing in your entire time here that I have fully agreed with, and this is it. It goes further though: not just when things go bad, but when things are going good, too. Nothing can tear apart a friendship faster than a couple million dollars and no one remembering how they agreed to divide it.
For good reasons and bad, friend or not, a properly written contract is a very good thing.

 

[EvilDragon]

... Also, I don't think we can be responsible for the production company lying to us.
If they told us they want to wait with the production until the nubs are there, then that would be fine.
But they told us they produced all the boards, so that only the nubs need to be soldered there.
If that didn't happen, then it's not our fault. We've been lied to. ...

Well that's fine and dandy, but in the end the customer holds you responsible not the assembly house. You guys have full control who you selected for assembly, so due diligence was in your court when you selected them. i.e. you take the risk when working with non-local companies, or companies that are small that can go bankrupt.

I know. As said, we are responsible, but that doesn't mean it's directly our fault.
TI suggested to us to use the company. Craig and Michael have been there. They were nice, were producing beagleboards and the prototypes worked fine.
So why should anyone think they should NOT be reliable for final mass production?

... Yes, we made a lot of mistakes. Yes, we are no pros. We learnt a lot.
We also had bad luck, for example with the nub company and maybe also the board company. That's something no one could've predicted. ...

Most everyone assumes this to be true, but we know mistakes have happened, and for some reason Pandora and mistakes happen a lot more often. What happens when the last mistake breaks the camels back? i.e. no money.

Then so be it. There's nothing I can do there, except for trying to find new companies and even get a credit to get the final production on the roll if necessary.
I can't change it now, but I won't run away and hide. I will take full responsibility for my actions, but that doesn't mean it will be easy for me.

Friend or Family, when any significant amount of money is involved a contact is your friend when things hit the fan.

You have said one thing in your entire time here that I have fully agreed with, and this is it. It goes further though: not just when things go bad, but when things are going good, too. Nothing can tear apart a friendship faster than a couple million dollars and no one remembering how they agreed to divide it.
For good reasons and bad, friend or not, a properly written contract is a very good thing.

Yes. That's what I learned here. I never had any issues before, it all worked out.
I can blame myself for that, and whatever happens, I have to live with the consequences. I just can try to make the best out of that for everyone.

 

[spaceballs3000]

... Also, I don't think we can be responsible for the production company lying to us.
If they told us they want to wait with the production until the nubs are there, then that would be fine.
But they told us they produced all the boards, so that only the nubs need to be soldered there.
If that didn't happen, then it's not our fault. We've been lied to. ...

Well that's fine and dandy, but in the end the customer holds you responsible not the assembly house. You guys have full control who you selected for assembly, so due diligence was in your court when you selected them. i.e. you take the risk when working with non-local companies, or companies that are small that can go bankrupt.

I know. As said, we are responsible, but that doesn't mean it's directly our fault.
TI suggested to us to use the company. Craig and Michael have been there. They were nice, were producing beagleboards and the prototypes worked fine.
So why should anyone think they should NOT be reliable for final mass production?

I believe the BeagleBoards kits are low volume (few K), and the makers of the Beagleboards have a close relations to TI, likely why you got the recommendation from TI. Now that opens up another serious question, if this assembly company can make few thousand beagleboards, why can't it make Pandora boards? I say something fishy there, and I really wonder if the assembly house is at fault here.

Friend or Family, when any significant amount of money is involved a contact is your friend when things hit the fan.

You have said one thing in your entire time here that I have fully agreed with, and this is it. It goes further though: not just when things go bad, but when things are going good, too. Nothing can tear apart a friendship faster than a couple million dollars and no one remembering how they agreed to divide it.
For good reasons and bad, friend or not, a properly written contract is a very good thing.

Yes. That's what I learned here. I never had any issues before, it all worked out.
I can blame myself for that, and whatever happens, I have to live with the consequences. I just can try to make the best out of that for everyone.

+1 to WizardStan, BTW it never hurts to try even now.

Also I do admire your goals, and dreams, they are well intended, just would hate to see it ruined by more of these (two-month) 'mistakes'.

 

[XxionxX]

So let me get this straight... No one is denying that we don't have the licensing for the SD card slots, and that there is a possibility that the OPT might get their pants sued off. The only one who properly replied was spaceballs3000, so I am assuming his info is correct. Why are we even bothering with going ahead? If this is true then there is no hope for expansion, and it will be a miracle if we all get the units we ordered. I don't really mind if my unit is FCC tested or not as long as no one comes knocking on my door, but I was DEFINITELY led to believe testing HAD happened. It kinda pisses me off when I am lied to, I don't care if shit happens as long as I am told. All of this seems to reek of MAJOR problems within the company, which no one is being up front about.

I JUST WANT MY PANDORA! OK!?

I am willing to wait. I do not want to not see my money, and mostly time, funneled out onto the ground. I have put my faith into this community, and frankly I expect to be treated with the same respect I give to all of you. When people withhold information, good or bad, it messes with the bonds people are trying to create. I hold nothing against ANY of the OPT team. I understand all of the hopes, dreams, stresses and problems which have come with this project. BUT! They have a commitment to the community which they have created. Two years of my time has been devoted to this beautiful dream, and I will not see it smashed into so many pieces because of a lack of information. If my dream, and yours, is falling apart we have a right to know.

I have spent over 600 hrs of my time on these forums watching this project, and not to mention the $300 USD on the unit itself, but I will NOT be blinded by my love for this community if people are fucking with me. Everyone has invested a lot, lets not let this fail because we have all come so far.

I apologize for my hostility.

 

[EvilDragon]

I believe the BeagleBoards kits are low volume (few K), and the makers of the Beagleboards have a close relations to TI, likely why you got the recommendation from TI. Now that opens up another serious question, if this assembly company can make few thousand beagleboards, why can't it make Pandora boards? I say something fishy there, and I really wonder if the assembly house is at fault here.

Well, what can I tell you?
They produced 900 Pandora boards, all the PCBs and parts are there, tomorrow they'll have 2000 of the new nubs.

None of the boards we delivered to customers did fail, so they certainly can produce the boards.

When I first got the suspicion that they didn't produce the boards as they claimed, I sent the CEO an eMail.
I wanted to find out whether they were pissed off somehow. Maybe they just told us they produced boards so we would shut up and they wanted to continue to produce them quickly when they received all the nubs?
That's what I wanted to know.

Hi,

as I mentioned in my last eMail, we're currently trying to sort out any issues there left with the Pandora. I have no idea what happened so far
or if we did something wrong in the past.

While we haven't spoken much before, you know I'm also involved in the project. We know various companies that worked with you in the past or have been selling your products, and so far, they all have said you're a reliable and good company to work with.

We really had a high expectation from your company, but it seems there are some issues we need to solve or at least find out what the main problem is.

We are currently trying to reorganizing things to work with our partners more reliable and professionally and to solve any issues.

As you probably know, we had never done such a project before and therefore most definately made quite a few mistakes on our way.
We learnt a lot in the last two years and are trying to make things properly done.

So please let us know if there are any issues with the production, we'll try to solve them as quickly as possible.

A lot of people love the Pandora and anywhere I go to present it I could easily sell hundreds of them. That's why we're really interested in getting this properly going.

I know you can properly produce the Pandora. None of the boards in the units we delivered to our customers has failed yet (except for the nubs, but that's a different story), you proved it can be done.

Please help us solve the last remaining issues so we can finally make the Pandora a nice working project for all involved companies and make it a success.

If you don't want to cooperate with us for any reason anymore, please let us know what went wrong and how we should proceed now.
We want our cooperation to end in an appropriate way, and we're trying to learn from our mistakes to not repeat them in the future.

Thanks a lot.

A polite eMail, I'd say. We want to work together and not against anyone.

The reply I got was the following one:

Hi michael,

Very sorry for non-response. I have been travelingthe last several weeks with limited access.

No issue at all on our end

I will clean up communication asap..

Thank you,

A few days later, we got the written schedule I posted here:
http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php?/topic/578-nubs-and-a-schedule-2010-11-04/

That sure sounded like they were working on it.
If they wanted to tell me that they wouldn't want to start production before all the nubs are there and working, we would've accepted and posted that.
If they had any other issues with us, they also could've told us.
All the schedules and timelines we posted on the boards were based on what we heard from the companies, we didn't make anything up ourselves.

Nevertheless, we started sourcing a new company, since we wanted to have a backup plan.

With each conference call, they told us that they are in schedule and that they can easily solder the nubs onto the boards.
Last Wednesday, they told us 95% of the boards are done and just need some testing and that they still could deliver 3000 boards before christmas if the nubs arrive within the next few days.
The CEO told us that Trey can visit on Friday to get a proper tour.

When Trey visited on Friday, he forgot that appointment and wasn't there. The folks were allowed to show him the production halls, they were working on BeagleBoards and PandaBoards.
He didn't see any Pandoras. However, if what they told us is true, and the only thing left on Wednesday was some testing of the last boards, it might be that the finished Pandoraboards had already been packed away, waiting for the nubs.

We don't know yet if they told us the truth, we'll find out when Trey visits on Wednesday (hopefully!).

What we know is that the LCD cables missed the schedule. We have enough for the next 1000 units, and the rest of the cables should be finished this week and ship, so there's no hurry, but it sure doesn't make you feel comfortable.

 

[EvilDragon]

I don't really mind if my unit is FCC tested or not as long as no one comes knocking on my door, but I was DEFINITELY led to believe testing HAD happened.

Testing HAS happened. We made a FULL CE test, which is similar to the FCC, just has some differences in the measurements (I asked the company that did the testing and they told me, looking at the results, that FCC should be fine as well).
A full FCC test incl. documents costs about 15.000 EUR though, whereas the CE test is way cheaper (as it is a self-certification and you don't need to pay for any approval, just for the test).

So yes, it has been tested to comply FCC, but it has not been officially FCC-tested.

The FCC-test is necessary if you sell your device WITHIN USA. If you import it (and that's what you do, if you buy from outside of USA), then you're responsible for it. It's the same if you import any other devices from China, the EU, etc.
No one within USA who received the Pandora had any problems receiving the unit yet.