Damsel in Distress (mouhaha)

[ekianjo]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/toa_vH6xGqs?feature=oembed

Let me guess, next step will be to forbid violence against women in video games, and we won't be able to play any of these evil, women-hating award winning games.

Games are already getting more and more boring, and more lobbying is not going to make them any better.

So, what will be allowed to portray in games in the future? doggies running in a field of flowers, chasing butterflies? Or will there be a "anti butterfly in distress" lobby as well?

Games are just games. Stop taking them so seriously. And of course they are aimed at a male audience, since the large majority of these games will be played by men in the first place. So what?

Besides, nobody forces you to buy video games. It's not like TV when you happen to see something you dont want. Games purchase is a voluntary thing. Don't like 'em ? Don't buy 'em. End of the story.

 

[WizardStan]

And of course they are aimed at a male audience, since the large majority of these games will be played by men in the first place.

That's a circular argument: games are aimed at a male audience because males will play them because they are aimed at a male audience because the male audience will play them.I haven't watched the video yet, probably won't unless someone gives me a good reason to, but a very legitimate argument I've heard on the topic is that if you stop trying to target the dominant male audience you will lose some men but will make up for it with a larger portion of women.

Isn't status-quo what a lot gamers complain about these days? "Gears of Duty 87: Another Shade of Brown" or whatever? So when a woman comes along and suggests a shake-up, stop pandering to the core male audience and take a chance on including women in the development it suddenly becomes "it's just a game, don't take it so seriously!"

Games purchase is a voluntary thing. Don't like 'em ? Don't buy 'em. End of the story.

That actually is the core of the argument though: publishers are driving away sales with their practices but absolutely no real research has been done on the phenomenon so they just keep doing exactly what they were doing before without realizing it's a problem. I like being "pandered" to as much as the next guy, but when a company spends huge amounts of money on "jiggle physics" in a 3rd person shooter I am going to stop and question that developers commitment to, you know, FUN. Time and place for everything and all that.It's like a hot dog vendor with ketchup and mustard. It's alright, but a lot of people really want their hot dogs with relish, they're tired of ketchup and mustard, so they go without. Hot dog sales decline as a result so the vendor starts trying to figure out why. "People aren't impressed with the mustard anymore? NEW Spicy Brown Mustard!" works for a while, but then they have to change the ketchup, then they change them again, always the same with different variations of ketchup and mustard when really all they needed to do was add some relish to their condiment rack. Eventually it gets so bad the hot dog vendors start blaming grocery stores for selling hot dogs cheaper than the vendors can, so they start looking for ways to break into that market and either benefit from or restrict it directly.

I haven't met a single person (male or female) that can be taken seriously that wants the very "male dominant" games to be restricted by law or anything like that, they're just saying "hey publishers, why don't you try something different for once? There's this huge untapped market that you are completely ignoring."

 

[Klumpen]

The woman in the vid is obviously just a narcist that likes to hear herself talk utter nonsense to a wide audience.

Do not take her too seriously.

There are enough female heroes in games and movies, most of them way more strong than they look.

"Sigourney Weaver" as Ripley was great though!

She did not look like a doll, but like a person you could be afraid of, even if she has got less muscle than you.

Topic "Damsel in distress":

Face the facts: Women are weak.

Victims have to be weak characters and if there are no children around... who will you take?

Little aliens or Mudokons maybe, but there are not always some around to free from anything.

Maybe this woman is just depressed about not having a good looking, intelligent, sword swinging barbarian doing all the stuff for her.

 

[Asiyura]

You know, girls like FPS, RTS and any other kind of games as much as boys. The main problem is the rampant sexism within the universe of videogames.

Have you ever looked at the reactions of most boys when they discover that one of the people they play with is a girl?

Every time, it goes "boobies", "tits or gtfo", "I'm going to rape your ass", "come at my home, I'll teach you how to play with a large joystick", "go back to the kitchen", "make me a sandwich", … (with a veeery few exceptions).

Boys always rant because there are no girls on the internet/games but when one appears, they do everything they can to drive them away.

Now about the games themselves, girls in games are almost always victims, "objects" that get stolen from the hero and that he must retrieve. And if they're not, they have large boobs, large ass and almost no clothes.

It's pretty rare to have a hero that is a girl. It would be great to have more games like Beyond Good & Evil, or Mirror's Edge, with a strong female character that is not over-sexualized.

 

[Monkfish]

two words for the woman in the video: "Samus Aran" probably the coolest video-game character ever, super tough uncompromising and still feminine, hardly ever needs to be rescued and completely kicks ass in every way. Not only that but she's been in a ton of games and all of them are great. Also she doesnt rely on being overly sexualised to be popular, she's popular because of her capabilities. 

 

[PokeParadox]

I agree with the Samus comment - but even she has been "over sexualised" recently.

Samus is the first video game heroine to be done correctly though - originally you didn't even know your character was female until the end of the game. Obviously now (pretty much) everyone knows... but anyways.

Also the comments of online gaming... that's the problem of "I can say anything because I'm behind my firewall". I remember multiplayer gaming at college on N64, Mario Kart Goldeneye,etc... yes we played against girls and no the banter wasn't sexist.

 

[Asiyura]

Also the comments of online gaming... that's the problem of "I can say anything because I'm behind my firewall". I remember multiplayer gaming at college on N64, Mario Kart Goldeneye,etc... yes we played against girls and no the banter wasn't sexist.

Problem is, it's not limited to online. Recently a female pro-gamer played a team tournament. That was streamed live. She has been sexually harassed the whole tournament by the "coach" or whatever it's called. Her teammate never intervened to stop the verbal abuse and the live chat wanted the coach to go even further.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/0SLDgPbjp0M?feature=oembed

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

^^^^^Is that necessarily endemic. Sounds like a bunch of arseholes who don't know how to treat a lady. They exist but do not account for all males.

Too many extremes in opinions nowadays i find. Sometimes its just one person treating another poorly, whethner it be a man or a woman.

 

[crosspoint]

Hey ekianjo, i have to disagree with some of your statements:

Let me guess, next step will be to forbid violence against women in video games, and we won't be able to play any of these evil, women-hating award winning games.

You miss the point here: It's not about forbidding violence against women in games. It's about making game designers and story writers aware that there are common sexist tropes like the Damsel in Distress which are deeply rooted in narratives of western culture. Tropes like the Damsel in Distress put male characters always in a position of power while female characters are dispowered and objectified - it's pure sexism. The next time a game story writer wants to use the motive of violence against women he/she could ask him/herself if it is really necessary for the plot.
 

Games are just games. Stop taking them so seriously.

No games are not just games. Like it is said in the video: games are not detached from the rest of the world. Like books, comics, movies etc. they are products of our culture and therefor full of conscious and unconscious opinions and thoughts.

And of course they are aimed at a male audience, since the large majority of these games will be played by men in the first place. So what?

There is no problem with games aimed at a male audience. The problem is that most of these games rely on sexist tropes for their storytelling. Game designers can avoid sexist tropes while still making games for a male audience. There is no contradiction. They even can use the motive of violence against women when it really makes sense for the plot. What they should avoid is using this motive as an excuse for the male protagonist to progress. Because then it is part of a sexist trope. And i don't think anyone of us like sexism, do we? There is no reason to accept sexism in games or books or comics or movies.

Besides, nobody forces you to buy video games. It's not like TV when you happen to see something you dont want. Games purchase is a voluntary thing. Don't like 'em ? Don't buy 'em. End of the story.

That's true but you have to consider that there isn't just always black and white, like or don't like. You can like certain parts of a game while disliking other parts. You can like the gameplay but don't like the story. You can buy a game only because of it's gameplay and not because of it's story. Almost all Nintendo games have a horrible story but they are fun as hell because of their gameplay. You also can like the story but dislike certain parts of it. I don't like sexist story elements but that doesn't mean that i totally refuse the whole story. So why should i not be allowed to talk about these sexist story elements? Only because they belong to a game which i otherwise like? There always is something i don't like about a particular game, book, comic or movie. But that doesn't keep me from buying them if they have other interesting parts which i like.

 

[WizardStan]

^^^^^Is that necessarily endemic. Sounds like a bunch of arseholes who don't know how to treat a lady. They exist but do not account for all males.

Too many extremes in opinions nowadays i find. Sometimes its just one person treating another poorly, whethner it be a man or a woman.

This is true, but a vocal minority can still ruin things for others. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If someone is being an asshat and giving your gender/job/school/race/species/whatever a bad name and you just sit quiet then you're being complacent in the asshattery. If someone is an ass, call them on it. If the good guys who know how to act with some discipline were more vocal maybe the jerks who can only gain enjoyment at the expense of others will be drowned out.

 

[vcoleiro1]

It's funny because I thought about posting about  Anita Sarkeesian some time ago , but didn't because I knew it would stir things up.  

To be honest the Tropes vs Women series is nothing more than boring. It is something she is putting together after getting funding on KS.  I don't have much of a problem with them at all, as she really doesn't say much either way in them. I think she has been careful not to drop the Sexism word in them and just sticks to saying tropes which is ok. The only problem with them I have is she is careful not to mention the many examples of games with women as heroes in order to make her points. She has been criticised many times for censoring out what doesn't fit her argument.

The reason a lot of people don't like her, has to do with all her other videos and blogs she has on Feministfrequecy .  Some of them are true discussions of real sexism against women, however, most are in the realm of extreme feminism and it is these videos , blogs and view points that people really dislike about her.   For example she has a blog and video about how lego is sexist because it comes in a blue box , ie ridiculous.  She is one of those feminist's that says everything is sexist without seemingly understanding what sexism actually is.  She has coped a lot of criticism from both Male and Females.  There are a lot of female feminist critiques of her who wish she would stop her nonsense as its giving feminism a bad name.  

Unfortunately there is sexism in the world, but mostly not what she discusses.  

That said, she was the victim of a very nasty online attack by mostly men recently regarding her extreme views which was discusting in itself.  People (probably 14 year old boys) went as far as giving her death threats.  This was truely disturbing and discusting and is the reason she has turned comments off on all her videos.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

^^^^^Is that necessarily endemic. Sounds like a bunch of arseholes who don't know how to treat a lady. They exist but do not account for all males.


Too many extremes in opinions nowadays i find. Sometimes its just one person treating another poorly, whethner it be a man or a woman.

This is true, but a vocal minority can still ruin things for others. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If someone is being an asshat and giving your gender/job/school/race/species/whatever a bad name and you just sit quiet then you're being complacent in the asshattery. If someone is an ass, call them on it. If the good guys who know how to act with some discipline were more vocal maybe the jerks who can only gain enjoyment at the expense of others will be drowned out.

Yeah i agree. People should speak up when someone else is being abused or singled out. The problem i find is people often operate in groups and just go with the flow.

Its risky to speak out because the majority, or your peers, so to speak' may not be happy. I get annoyed when people are complete dickheads in the workplace but often such things go unchecked.

 

[DaMummy]

oh for fucks sake....

 

[Asiyura]

Like I said, there are games with non over-sexualized woman as the main protagonist. They're usually badly marketed because "it's a girl, girls don't sell"… vicious circle again. The point is that 95% of the games have a man with lots of muscle and a large weapon as main protagonist and he must save/avenge his wife/girlfriend.

But I won't argue further, I already feel like it's a lost cause on these boards… and I'm a man, I don't even have to live what women do when they play videogames (online and offline) or in their everyday life.

 

[thatgui]

--- ekianjo ----

Let me guess, next step will be to forbid violence against women in video games, and we won't be able to play any of these evil, women-hating award winning games.

Games are already getting more and more boring, and more lobbying is not going to make them any better.

So, what will be allowed to portray in games in the future? doggies running in a field of flowers, chasing butterflies? Or will there be a "anti butterfly in distress" lobby as well?

----------------

What most people don't seem to understand (and as it seems, including you) that she isn't against this "theme" beeing the underlying part of a story, nor is she against violence in videogames in general. She has no problem with playing such a game, It is just about next to nothing weighing against it at the other side of the scale.

There are games that are constructed around a strong female character, but in relation to the massive amount of games where the damsel in distress theme is outbid to the max, this is a just a niche in the market.

And if you are thinking that games are getting more and more boring, shouldn't you not be rather supportive if someone tries to steer the ship off course ?

--- ekianjo ----

Games are just games. Stop taking them so seriously. And of course they are aimed at a male audience, since the large majority of these games will be played by men in the first place. So what?

----------------

No they are not just "games" they represent a big part of our culture thus also reflecting back on us.

--- ekianjo ----

Besides, nobody forces you to buy video games. It's not like TV when you happen to see something you dont want. Games purchase is a voluntary thing. Don't like 'em ? Don't buy 'em. End of the story.

----------------

Where should this argument lead to ? Nobody forces you to buy/watch anything be it TV, books, clothes, shoes, ... - so what ? Everything is somewhat voluntary unless you want to participate in society. At lot of people around here and elsewhere complain about a lot of developments in the entertainment industry like movies getting more and more about style then substance, Gamers are beeing more and more chained by DRM systems, etc. Should they all just shut up and just don't buy/watch it ? Or should they be allowed to formulate their opinion about what they are thinking is wrong, without being laughed at and their opinions beeing swept away with lousy arguments (or worse in her case)?

--- vcoleiro ----

To be honest the Tropes vs Women series is nothing more than boring. It is something she is putting together after getting funding on KS.  I don't have much of a problem with them at all, as she really doesn't say much either way in them. I think she has been careful not to drop the Sexism word in them and just sticks to saying tropes which is ok. The only problem with them I have is she is careful not to mention the many examples of games with women as heroes in order to make her points. She has been criticised many times for censoring out what doesn't fit her argument.

----------------

Thats just a matter of taste I guess. I watched her old videos several months ago, and while some of her argumentation is flawed or sometimes even illogical or selective - her basic statement seems valid to me.

But if it so obvious that she is censoring out that whole lot of games with strong female protagonists, would you mind pointing me to a list ?

--- vcoleiro ----

The reason a lot of people don't like her, has to do with all her other videos and blogs she has on Feministfrequecy .  Some of them are true discussions of real sexism against women, however, most are in the realm of extreme feminism and it is these videos , blogs and view points that people really dislike about her.   For example she has a blog and video about how lego is sexist because it comes in a blue box , ie ridiculous. 

----------------

I have seen a video of her showing her discontent with Legos product and merketing politics, but I can't remember any basic statement that was based on boxcolors. Instead she was focusing on how lego marketing shifted from "boys and girls enjoy lego alike" in the late 80s to "girls seem to do other things, while father and son enjoy their lego" in the 90s and beyond, and Legos more or less successfull attempts in the past and now to expand their marketshare by coming up with products that practically serve every cliché about what little girls have to be interested in. Does not look very rediculous to me.

sorry for the weird posting style

 

[vcoleiro1]

^ There have been numerous critique vids on youtube  , some went through a list of games with female protaganists - look them up.

Here's an independent incomplete list: http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/3015-2287/games/

Also, Here is some interesting critques on this aspect: 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/GpDnr2s9yxQ?feature=oembed

 

[ekianjo]

thatgui, ever seen the quote function before?

There are games that are constructed around a strong female character, but in relation to the massive amount of games where the damsel in distress theme is outbid to the max, this is a just a niche in the market.

Then the same can be said about 99% of movies made before. Very few have strong female characters. And you know what? I dont really care. In case you have not noticed we live in a Men's world, where Women try to get more power progressively. Obviously everything we see around is still strongly influenced by the centuries behind us. So what's surprising that everything being produced reflect that fact? Nothing, really. Should we fight to have more strong women representation ? Meh, why don't women make their own games and show us the examples, then ? As far as I know, many women who play games are fine with the games made for guys and don't care so much.  

And its very obvious why games are the way they are: most game developers are guys and therefore have no idea (or probably very little) on how to write an interesting female lead (and no, Samus or Lara Croft aren't really strong female leads, you guys are totally wrong - these characters are just guys with breasts - there's nothing much female about them). Even Lara Croft was written to be a male lead in the first place, I don't invent anything. 

So please define what "strong female character" means to you, since all I see as examples so far is girls holding guns just like guys. Or girls punching guys (mirror's edge). Haha. 

There's only one strong female character that comes to mind: Bayonetta - yet another character with guns, but they gave her a sense of humor that most guys characters don't have - they could have made a guy out of her but it wouldn't have worked the same. It's difficult to describe why, anyway. 

 And if you are thinking that games are getting more and more boring, shouldn't you not be rather supportive if someone tries to steer the ship off course ?

Mouhaha (sorry) - because I don't think that's relevant to make games more interesting. Stories and character development are often just secondary in game. There are very few games where I genuinely manage to care about the characters - Most games are written by geeks who have no idea how to write characters in the first place and they barely manage to make good game mecanics already, so complaining about the storyline and characters is like telling you that there's a scratch on your windshield when you completely wrecked your car already. 

It's just hilarious to focus on that. 

No they are not just "games" they represent a big part of our culture thus also reflecting back on us.

Can we stop the crap "games are art", "games reflect culture", "games = society". It wasn't even very funny in the first place when the first arsehole online claimed this kind of thing, but now this is getting really old.

Games just reflect how lazy, uninventive the people who create the games are. Ever talked to game designers? Even seen them speaking ? Most of them may be good at what they are doing but not very smart nor interesting people otherwise. Even Kojima was just a frustrated guy who wanted to do movies but couldn't, so he wrote games instead. And it seems like he made a few good games by accident, if I trust his track record until now. The more he gets the financial means to do something else with "larger meaning", the crappier the result. I guess you understand my point, heh. 

I dont consider games represent anything. And I certainly don't GIVE meaning to games that are obviously just produced to make money. 

Games are a passtime to have fun. That's the definition of a game. Stop looking for hidden messages behind Donkey Kong, there's none. Nobody purposely thought 50 hours about whether or not to put a female character stolen by a huge monkey. It's not because what she says POTENTIALLY makes sense that it's actually true, Oh no. 

Where should this argument lead to ? Nobody forces you to buy/watch anything be it TV, books, clothes, shoes, ... - so what ? Everything is somewhat voluntary unless you want to participate in society. At lot of people around here and elsewhere complain about a lot of developments in the entertainment industry like movies getting more and more about style then substance, Gamers are beeing more and more chained by DRM systems, etc. Should they all just shut up and just don't buy/watch it ? Or should they be allowed to formulate their opinion about what they are thinking is wrong, without being laughed at and their opinions beeing swept away with lousy arguments (or worse in her case)?

The argument leads to... "why do you care if you are not fed with it in the first place?". It's all about Freedom. If people like games where women are viewed in this way, well LET THEM. If people like eating cheeseburger everyday well LET THEM. This attitude of wanting to correct every single wrong on the planet is very much alike to being oppressive and disrespecting other people's tastes. Example: People like the XBOXONE ? Great for them, for me it's not so hot. So I don't expect to buy one. End of story as far as I am concerned, and lost opportunity for Microsoft, as a previous client of their consoles. I am not going to post videos explaining why the XBOXONE is (probably) crap. I'm done already. 

So for this person we are talking about: you don't like video games portraying girls like that? Well good for you, there's a very easy way to avoid it ! Don't play games! Problem solved. And honestly if she really cares about the conditions of women in the world, there are SO MANY OTHER PRODUCTIVE things she could do right now instead of complaining about that super-minor-minuscule issue of women representation in games. As we speak there are women being literally enslaved in many countries around the world, and that has nothing to do about video games because they said countries don't even have money for games in the first place. Why not fight for that, instead ? 

Oh let me guess. Because it's so much easier to record a few video clips, complain about crappy video games than to do something remotely useful about some harder, more time-consuming issue. Like re-arranging the chairs on the Titanic. 

Of course she is perfectly entitled to have her opinion, and I am perfectly entitled to disagree with her as well. And being laughed at is always a risk when you go out in public. I guess you know what you face when you put a controversial video on youtube. If you don't feel comfortable with feedback, don't do it. 

 

[foxblock]

Games are just games. Stop taking them so seriously.

You are right and if we keep thinking like that they will always stay that way, we will get more Call of Duties, less meaningful games, the medium will never grow up, and never be accepted alongside movies for example.

I could go more in-depth on how you are wrong with the rest of your post, games as a form of art, male power fantasies, sexism, whatever..., but it seems pretty clear that I would be wasting my time

The first 15 minutes or so of the video is bullshit imo, she focuses too much on examples (yeah, we get it...) and does not get much of a point across, but the last 10 minutes include a few good thoughts. Obviously the argument is very one sided, hopefully the last video in the series will focus on the right examples to show both sides of the coin.

 

[Klumpen]

Meh, why don't women make their own games and show us the examples, then ?

Very good question.

Maybe it is the same as in politics in my country

(as for the minor interest in it throughout all the female people here, they can use quota for getting a position instead of a man that is qulified in the same way, that is sexism too, btw)

and most of them do not really care for programming.

Does anyone here know a game, that is made by some women too or even one in the team that does something other than drawing concept art?

 

[vcoleiro1]

Meh, why don't women make their own games and show us the examples, then ?

Very good question.

Maybe it is the same as in politics in my country

(as for the minor interest in it throughout all the female people here, they can use quota for getting a position instead of a man that is qulified in the same way, that is sexism too, btw)

and most of them do not really care for programming.

Does anyone here know a game, that is made by some women too or even one in the team that does something other than drawing concept art?

That happened at a place I uses to work at. Because there were few women in IT, the Vice President of IT set upon increasing the numbers of women by giving preferance to women who applied despite them being few in number. She did that openly , sexism in its worst form.