Csound/pd & Pro Audio

[torpor]

cheers torpor even if you get half of your list done that would be great

I'm just waiting for a Pandora, like everyone else, and then I'll be getting stuck into it! The Beagleboard is pretty good for a lot of things, but nothing will be as fun as writing some brand new stuff to run exclusively on the Pandora .. the design of the Pandora lends itself to so much fun stuff, audio-wise .. imagine a step sequencer, a mixer, some synth engine, etc., all using the dual sticks and keypad effectively. I've got a room full of MIDI gear, sequencers, synthesizers, effects racks, and so on .. I really hope to be pushing the Pandora into that territory.

this USB Gadget Audio thing would be great for a lot of laptop musicians!

Definitely! Its already been started as a project by the Gumstix folks, so it hopefully won't be much work, but I've decided to hold off on any hacking in this area until I get a real Pandora, and have had a chance to synchronize my efforts with DJWillis/Open2X on the OS side of things .. the configuration of the audio subsystem in the Pandora OS has to be done in a way that makes sense for gadget_audio to operate .. maybe we'll need another 'server side' program that does the routing of the onboard audio channels over the gadget_audio link to be effective. Imagine having a GUI running on the Pandora that shows you the inputs and outputs, and you can patch things around so that for example, you could have the microphone inputs of the Pandora being routed to a gadget_audio channel for input into your PC DAW system .. and so on .. Hopefully we'll be able to get this working smoothly enough.

The other thing to consider is that there will be a lot of trackers for the Pandora that work from the get-go .. I know for example that littledjpiggy has been ported to Beagleboard/Angstrom, so that will be pretty easy to get up and running, though from what I know of m-.-n's aversion to having-too-many-keys, it'll probably still be quite a fiddly tracker to play! I say that, knowing full well that there are *AWESOME* tracks made with tha' pigster ..

 

[Eight Bit]

One word:

Sweeeeeeeeeet!!

 

[TheRain]

I can't find the thread now but there is somebody working on some kind of MIDI control interface software.

I'll be porting libdsmi (http://dsmi.tobw.net/) which is a MIDI over WiFi system 0xTob and I created for mobile devices. You can see on that page that I have ported it to iPhone, and i'll probably make some variation on my iPhone apps for Pandora as well (http://www.cmsoftwaredesigns.com) .

I'll be working on an algorithmic sequencer/sampler app specifically for the Pandora as well- I want to create something that has a user interface that makes full use of the Pandora's touch screen and buttons for real time music programming experience.

 

[peelie]

cool therain just tried your midi app on my ipodtouch - easier to setup than touchosc to control ableton looking forward to your 'integrated' app

shame i haven't got a mac to be able to use this without a router!

 

[TheRain]

cool therain just tried your midi app on my ipodtouch - easier to setup than touchosc to control ableton looking forward to your 'integrated' app

shame i haven't got a mac to be able to use this without a router!

Thanks for the nice comment peelie. You should be able to use this in Windows without a router as well- it's just a little more difficult. The trick is that you need to set up your Windows machine for Ad-Hoc connection- you can search the web for how to do it. Then connect the iTouch over wifi to your Windows Machine like it's a router. That's the same thing we do on the Mac for this- it's just a little easier of a process on the mac

BTW- That new version of iXY you read about on my page is coming along nicely. I'm working on getting the trigger pads set up for Ableton Live clip triggering so they will show the status of playing clips

 

[renegadechic]

corrr ive had occasional moments of geeking out about pandora's music potential in chat and now i am ridiculously stoked to see what happens!

torpor, on this point:

5. Another dead-easy project that will bring much power to the Pandora-using musician is USB Gadget Audio.

can you elaborate on this a bit? for various reasons i have never bought myself a remotely decent sound card but will this mean it is useable as one, with very little latency and all? also what kind of compatibility could we see from it? linux arm/x86? windows? this could push it to being the product of my dreams! not only that, with the right marketing to the right people, the device could see massive interest and sales to that audience.

 

[monkeyo2]

Thank you torpor and TheRain, your posts have reignited my waning excitement about Pandora’s imminent arrival!

I think I’d rather use a Pandora than an Eigenharp. It might be slightly less cool on stage, but then I once saw an African band at a festival with 3 people playing Kalimba Thumb Pianos, and from a distance it looked like they could all be playing Game Boys.

Come to think of it, anyone who has played fast games with control pads for any length of time would probably be not too bad at playing one:
www.dailymotion.com/video/x5y95u_kalimba-solo-in-g-m

 

[torpor]

Apropos USB-Gadget-Audio: Basically, Linux supports many different kinds of USB 'gadgets' already - there is a gadget interface in the kernel. This means that you can make your Linux box, appear to your PC to be a kind of USB device - ethernet, serial, mouse, keyboard, etc. And, also, Audio Sound card.

So the way it will work, if it works, is that you load the usb-gadget-audio module on your Pandora, plug it into your PC's USB port, and any of the audio i/o channels on the Pandora will show up as regular sound channels on your PC. We could configure things so that any game audio goes over usb-gadget-audio to your PC, for example .. or for our uses, we'd have the ability to send soft-synth output channels on the Pandora, into individual channels on your PC - digitally. Meaning we could, feasibly, turn the Pandora into a 6x6 audio card - 6 audio channels IN (to your PC) 4 channels OUT (from your PC to the Pandora), and so on ..

We shall see. I'm going to be working on this as soon as I get a Pandora in my hands and have had a chance to catch up with DJWillis and the other distro devs in the building-the-kernel department ..

 

[peelie]

cool therain just tried your midi app on my ipodtouch - easier to setup than touchosc to control ableton looking forward to your 'integrated' app

shame i haven't got a mac to be able to use this without a router!

Thanks for the nice comment peelie. You should be able to use this in Windows without a router as well- it's just a little more difficult. The trick is that you need to set up your Windows machine for Ad-Hoc connection- you can search the web for how to do it.

yeah i vaguely knew about ad-hoc before but thought you needed an internet connection - so looked it up again and found out you don't! fab thanks i was looking for a way to control laptop for my wedding coming up in 2 weeks

sorry for OT post people!

 

[uplink3r]

Wow, this is all awesome news. I always figured the digital pro-audio hardware was physically running on a small(ish) chip.

Here are some things I would like to see:

1) MIDI Keyboards can plug directly into the pandora.
2) VST/VSTi support? Oh pppplllleeeeaaaasssseeee!! Would this need WINE?
3) Csound/MaxMSP/PureData (pd). Seriously guys, nobody even responded to this possibility. CSound and PD could do amazing things on the pandora. OLPC (like the Asus Eee PC) used csound for all it's audio.
4) Aurdour. If the pandora could run that I would be so damn happy.
5) Simple FM/Addictive/Subtractive synth. (ZynAddSubFX) This could rival a number of $200-$300 synthesizers on it's own connected to a midi keyboard.
6) Guitar TAB/ piano music editor/ reader. A guitar tab editor might be more of a manager, but it would be cool to be able to look up previously downloaded guitar tabs. You could still display them as text. Sheet music would need to be ported. BTW, i've seen websites with a guitar tab to piano sheet music converter.

As to the "pro-hardware" side of the debate: Hardware synths do tend to sound better, and mastering is whole different story with out professional hardware. However, look at products like the Korg OASYS. That is 100% digital, and it sounds like the BOMB. I think a large reason why software synthesizers don't sound as good is because companies have a much harder time making money off of software. Plus, you can't torrent a physical keyboard.

Over the summer I would be willing to help program stuff for pandora. I am a computer science major.

P.S. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4888581482302446163&ei=GwPdSt6hGJ6yqgKG1J3NDg&q=csound (video of OLPC using csound-based music software to sync up a bunch of a OLPCs to play together)
Max/MSP and PD being used:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rssD7zEbdGk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtzlM9M-qLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WzviJlm41E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSo9b5TNnzA
Max/MSP being used by radiohead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyKCwDJ7ZUc

 

[torpor]

uplink3r: yeah for sure we will get PureData on the Pandora as soon as possible, CSound as well .. should be very easy to get these tools running, at least with a 'decent' level of performance, pretty soon .. already have puredata on the Beagle, and it runs just fine (I'm a huge fan of the TribalHouse.pd patch for making beats on the Beagle..)

As for synths - definitely! I can already plug my Korg NanoKey/NanoControl surfaces into the Beagleboard and use them to control alsa-based synths (Zynaddsubfx) so this will be very possible on Pandora .. I think the only limit is us! And it already looks like there is an "Audio Tools" group forming for Pandora, so .. lets just get our hardware in our hands and start making it do cool stuff!

 

[zevdawg]

For some reason it doubleposted this, ignore this.

 

[zevdawg]

I'm working on some audio tools for the Pandora (using my Beagleboard in the meantime) and I can say the following:

1. The Pandora can be configured to do realtime audio that easily matches the capabilities of devices like the Korg Nanopad and other "pro audio" electronics devices. I know this because I've been working on these pro audio devices for 20 years, and I know for a fact that the Pandora has everything we need to turn out pro-quality audio latency ..

2. I will be participating in/directly porting the following apps to Pandora as soon as I can get my hands on a real device (and/or the base OS that the devs are building is available for Beagleboard as well): seq24, zynaddsubfx (going to be a bit tricky), bristolsynth, asynth, lmms, qsynth, omsynth, mx44 (also a bit tricky). Some of these tools have x86 optimizations - obviously those will not get ported before the plain old C-based projects that are a simple compile.

3. MIDI capabilities for the Pandora should be superlative from the start of shipping onwards .. just plug in a MIDI device and away you go. I can, for example, just plug my Korg NanoKeys/Pad/Control devices into my Beagleboard right now, and they just plain work as controllers for audio apps. Same with MIDI I/O interfaces, btw. The Pandora will definitely be usable in a studio context for MIDI Sequencing and hacking. keyKIT will rock, for example.

4. The onboard DSP capabilities: once we have some basic things working and running, such as the ported apps listed above, and MIDI and so on, I will start to work on porting my synth/sampler engine to the Pandora OMAP, and work out ways to utilize the onboard DSP in *CUSTOM MUSIC SOFTWARE FOR THE PANDORA*. One of the main reasons I'm so interested in the Pandora is exclusively for the purposes of making music with it: I worked for years in the pro audio field and desired for a long time to have a portable music machine with decent power out there in the world, and Pandora is going to be *it*.

5. Another dead-easy project that will bring much power to the Pandora-using musician is USB Gadget Audio. A gadget_audio driver for the Pandora will turn it into a USB-based sound-card - so yes, all audio can be channeled back, as if it were being produced by a real USB-based audio card, into the PC DAW .. this is very possible, and will provide a feature set similar to other 'integrated' products, which incidentally use a totally proprietary (utterly rubbish) means of accomplishing the same thing .. USB Gadget Audio fro the Pandora will be very easy, but it depends on how things go with DJWillis and the other Open2X guys currently working on the Pandora OS release.

6. BOOT-FROM-SD. One thing you have to realize is that its very easy to boot another OS on the Pandora. So, someone (maybe me) will produce a highly optimized Pandora-Audio OS release which makes most of the given arguments utterly irrelevant. Imagine a bootable SD that you get: RealTime Audio and exceptionally good latency performance, tons and tons of built-in, ready setup audio apps, Gadget Audio driver integration, and plug and play functionality on the MIDI/USB side of things .. very, very feasible, and we will probably get more formerly organized on this side of things once there are more Pandoras out there in the wild ..


Those that say that the Pandora doesn't have the beef, haven't opened the box on the over-priced synths currently in fashion and seen that in fact, they've got less power than the Pandora, yet plenty of so-called 'professional' musicians swear by the product. Just wait and see, folks ..

As someone who uses audio software/equipment on a regular basis, I fully support this! andora2ut4:
Now where's the donate button when you need it? I'd like to buy you a few beer ^_^

 

[Loonie]

Those that say that the Pandora doesn't have the beef, haven't opened the box on the over-priced synths currently in fashion and seen that in fact, they've got less power than the Pandora, yet plenty of so-called 'professional' musicians swear by the product. Just wait and see, folks ..

Those that say that the Pandora doesn't have the beef should see what a Palm can do with Bhajis Loops, apologize for saying such stupid things, and then shut their wrong mouths.

You, sir, are definitely owed much beer.

 

[fraseyboy]

Torpor, you have my full support. Such an application would be truly awesome.

 

[efegea]

I just have read the whole thread, and I'd like to ask something..

I'm going to buy a measurement microphone and a little mixer (the cheapest I've found on Thomann that has phantom power)(that is: Phonic AM 120 MK II mixer, and Superlux ECM999 microphone) for room acoustic measurements. Nothing pro-level, just basic measurements (I'm not an expert on sound and acoustics). On windows I use smaart-live. It also runs fine on x86 systems under wine on linux and macosx. It does FFT calculations, real time frequency response, impulse response.. Will be there some similar application for the Pandora? or better said: is there any similar application that runs on linux and is portable, open source? (never looked for sound measurement applications on linux, even having used linux 24/7 since 2001..just sound hasn't been of my interest until now) Will the Pandora be able to do this?

I'm currently building HTPCs on Atom ION processor, running Gentoo Linux and the latest XBMC, and measuring and equalizing the acoustics is one of the steps I'll do when I'll be installing them. And I was thinking about using the Pandora for that measurements. I've thought about running smaartlive on wine on the HTPC, but perhaps the Pandora could be a better solution..?

 

[djaychela]

Well, I'd not seen this thread before.

I'm really excited about the prospect of getting some audio-creation tools running on the Pandora. TBH I don't think on-board audio will ever be useful in a "professional" context; it's unlikely that the hardware will be good enough for making really high-quality recordings, and nor should we expect that from a £200 device. BUT it will be brilliant to have such a device with software that you can take anywhere; ideal for long journeys and so on.

Once the devices actually appear, I'd be happy to act as a tester for any software for the Pandora; I have a fairly wide range of experience with audio software (and do so for work), so I'd think I'd be able to do a decent job. Certainly I've been a tester for Steinberg for the last 15 years (joke!)

@efegea: I've used a few Superlux mics (and I own a pair of CMH-8a mics), and they are very good for the money. Not a U87, but then they're not £2000!

 

[rabidpoobear]

TBH I don't think on-board audio will ever be useful in a "professional" context; it's unlikely that the hardware will be good enough for making really high-quality recordings, and nor should we expect that from a £200 device.

First of all, I think you're underestimating the on-board sound. I'll post a recording of a mic pre directly into the Pandora and I'm confident it will sound just fine, but it has full USB 2.0 support so it's extremely easy to use an outboard USB2.0 sound card like the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra (or a more "professional" one).

@efegea: I've used a few Superlux mics (and I own a pair of CMH-8a mics), and they are very good for the money. Not a U87, but then they're not £2000!

Why in the hell would someone even think of using a Neumann for a measurement microphone? All you need in a measurement mic is flat freq response. Noise doesn't even matter all that much. That's why a lot of measurement mics are electrets. Keep the Neumann's at home please.

 

[djaychela]

TBH I don't think on-board audio will ever be useful in a "professional" context; it's unlikely that the hardware will be good enough for making really high-quality recordings, and nor should we expect that from a £200 device.

First of all, I think you're underestimating the on-board sound. I'll post a recording of a mic pre directly into the Pandora and I'm confident it will sound just fine, but it has full USB 2.0 support so it's extremely easy to use an outboard USB2.0 sound card like the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra (or a more "professional" one).

No, I'm not underestimating the onboard sound. I've never head onboard sound on ANY laptop or indeed other "general purpose" soundcard that was of a high quality, despite people's claims to the contrary. I'm sure it'll be fine by gaming/general standards, but it won't be of broadcast/pro/release quality. Nor would I expect it to be. Plus I can't remember seeing Phantom Power as on the Pandora's audio spec. If I want to make a decent recording, I'd be using external hardware, which would largely negate the point of using the Pandora.

@efegea: I've used a few Superlux mics (and I own a pair of CMH-8a mics), and they are very good for the money. Not a U87, but then they're not £2000!

Why in the hell would someone even think of using a Neumann for a measurement microphone? All you need in a measurement mic is flat freq response. Noise doesn't even matter all that much. That's why a lot of measurement mics are electrets. Keep the Neumann's at home please.
[/quote]
Who said they'd use a U87 for a measurement mic? I didn't. I was just making a comment on the quality of Superlux mics; they're OK, but you can't expect a £100 mic to sound perfect, or like a U87 for that matter.

 

[rabidpoobear]

First of all, I think you're underestimating the on-board sound. I'll post a recording of a mic pre directly into the Pandora and I'm confident it will sound just fine, but it has full USB 2.0 support so it's extremely easy to use an outboard USB2.0 sound card like the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra (or a more "professional" one).

No, I'm not underestimating the onboard sound. I've never head onboard sound on ANY laptop or indeed other "general purpose" soundcard that was of a high quality, despite people's claims to the contrary.

Laptops have a lot of noise sources, they're not designed to have high quality sound. The Pandora should have considerably less RF / internal noise, and it also doesn't have fans or spinning media.

I'm sure it'll be fine by gaming/general standards, but it won't be of broadcast/pro/release quality.

Not everyone needs everything to be in 192khz 24-bit to be satisfied. In fact most consumers listen to 96kbps CBR MP3s on their ipods with earbuds. If you're doing recordings professionally, you're going to be in a treated studio with plenty of gear. If you want to do a great recording on the go, the Pandora's pretty close to perfection for it. The White Stripes' recordings sound pretty awful (worse than recordings I can do, even without a U87) and they're a very popular band. For almost every use except for possibly recording master tracks in a studio, the sound will likely be good enough.

If I want to make a decent recording, I'd be using external hardware, which would largely negate the point of using the Pandora.

Except that it's extremely portable and you can record to the SD card and be able to run multitrack recorders and record midi and a bunch of other useful things, with smaller / less noisy hardware than if you used a laptop. If you don't see that then that's okay, but that's what we've been talking about here. It has a whole lot of applicability to be a lightweight, great recording device.

@efegea: I've used a few Superlux mics (and I own a pair of CMH-8a mics), and they are very good for the money. Not a U87, but then they're not £2000!

Why in the hell would someone even think of using a Neumann for a measurement microphone? All you need in a measurement mic is flat freq response. Noise doesn't even matter all that much. That's why a lot of measurement mics are electrets. Keep the Neumann's at home please.

Who said they'd use a U87 for a measurement mic?

um, actually the person who mentioned the Superlux mics that you were speaking to...

I was just making a comment on the quality of Superlux mics; they're OK, but you can't expect a £100 mic to sound perfect, or like a U87 for that matter.

once again, if you are using a mic for measurement why do you care what it sounds like? It just needs to be accurate.