Craig - Email The Boingboing Guy About The Drm

[ChrisS]

There have been many complaints about the DRM function with the Gp2x so let me explain exactly the purpose for the DRM

We will only be using DRM for commercial games that we distribute through our website

DRM will not effect anything else, it will be used the same way as the Gp32

There is nothing to be scared of!

Best regards,

Anna

​

They might attract a lot less negative attention if they called this function exactly what it is - software copy protection.

Saying "The gp2x supports software copy protection features for commercial software." would attract a lot less concern than "Copyright protection by certified DRM."

That second sentence and the use of the term "DRM" fairly screams to be interpreted as "we sold out to the media companies because they told us we'd get sued otherwise, so we'll make what they want, not what you want". And that is NOT what they are doing with the gp2x.

What they doing in software looks to be fine. It has a few limitations, but nothing unreasonable, and nothing the customer won't understand before buying.

However, what they are doing to publicize it is equivalent to painting a target on their back. And - every time they use the term "DRM" again, they risk starting a new round of concerns. They aren't doing DRM - so stop calling it that.

A number of us are new here, and would likely get ignored if we try and explain this to the company - but maybe if someone with a long-term contact with this company explained that what they are doing looks to be fine, but what they are saying about it is causing havoc, then a simple website update would start to make this problem simply go away.

There is one point that a number of people on this group have made that I do definitely disagree with. I think the wrong time to express concerns about features like this is after the product is launched. Waiting until after an item is released usually means giving up any chance of getting features like this changed.

 

[unlucky]

I dont want to start a new topic but i got sent an email today from craig which i think should clear a few more myths surrounding the dual core setup...
"Both cores are fully programmable and a linux driver could also support both.

We will release code showing how to use them both.

They both also have 2D acceleration.

Thanks,

Craig"

 

[Vimacs]

Now everyone loves MAME, you want to play arcade classics no longer available anywhere. Woo Hoo. But do you own the original cabinet / game board ? No, well then strictly speaking you shouldn't be playing that ROM -- but MAME don't do DRM so you can.

Mames copy protection where custom carts, you cant just copy them. So they ware well protected, no need for aditional protection.

But on a evice that uses open median and is ment to run non commercial stuff you need a way to protect commercial games/software, so they integrate a copy preotection, its easy as that.

Mame carts ware extracted, now you can play them, gp2x games will be playable on a gp2x emu one day if someone should realy write one, you could integrate the id's in the images and could even use them without "brakeing" the drm, it works that way on geepee32.


Also, on your concern about media playback, gp2x will be able to play most audio and video formats, avi's, mpeg's, mp3's, ogg's, wav's dont include drm support, a device is not able to know where it comes form, they will allways be playable.
gp2x is also targeting to be a media player, capping that would just be nonesense, building a player without avi or mp3 support just dosnt work out.

On the ipod target, you are actualy telling half-trueth, another company used apples own drm music format, that was locked, if that other seller would have been honest and wouldnt have sold drm crap music it would still work and wouldnt be a problem for anyone, buying drm'd music is just stupid as long as there are other legal ways.

 

[Alpha2]

hehehe the only other legal way is to buy the CD and rip it yourself.

Anyway keep in mind that GPH is korean and english not being perfect probably felt there wasn't as much baggage associated with DRM as some people are making it out to have. It's simply a shorter, quicker way to say rights management and with their track record it should be easier to understand what it meant from their perspective. Even Craig as a english speaking distributer and part of this community had no problem with the term DRM.

 

[OrR]

Let's suggest for a while that there was more nasty DRM hidden in the hardware and that a firmware upgrade would turn it on... Well, who would get that firmware?! :blink: It'd have to prevent all old applications from running... And even if you installed it, you could easily go back to the old firmware or even some alternative firmware written by anyone. Software on the GP2X won't be restricted in any way and thus media won't be restricted. DRM in this case means copy protection for commercial games. Not more. Craig has confirmed it, GPH has confirmed it but the strongest argument is that nobody would get the GP2X if it was any different. Case closed. <_<

 

[Prophet]

It was a bit comical to see the black helicopter crowd flip their lids over seeing "DRM" associated with GP2X.

It reminds me of many facets of society, where certain buzzwords spark Pavlovian responses from people before they even stop to think or listen to the context.

I'm just glad GPH posted that public message, confirming what most of us already knew. Definitely should be "case closed" now for most normal people.

I wonder if boingboing has updated his news on it? I personally refuse to look there ever again until I hear they've quelled the unfounded paranoia they sparked.

 

[OrR]

I've just shot off another angry mail at that guy again...

 

[Alpha2]

It reminds me of many facets of society, where certain buzzwords spark Pavlovian responses from people before they even stop to think or listen to the contex

​

you mean like how I could be talking about the stockmarket's financtial indicators and there longtern effects on farm subsidies for the next decade in small rural sections of nebreaska causeing people to pretty much ignore the entire thing and slip in a mention of titties and people would start drooling?

Yeah, that is pretty humorous.

But even if this guy dosent change his post, in time the system will come out and he'll either look stupid for sticking to his guns or people will have forgetten he ever said it in the long run.

 

[Htwo]

It looks like license revocation has been ruled out, which is nice, but that was never very likely in the first place

There are still some things left to be cleared up:

Craig says parts of Mplayer will be encrypted with DRM, GPH say only downloaded games will be encrypted.

The details regarding resistance to modification haven't been addressed yet either.

 

[DaveC]

It looks like license revocation has been ruled out, which is nice, but that was never very likely in the first place

There are still some things left to be cleared up:

Craig says parts of Mplayer will be encrypted with DRM, GPH say only downloaded games will be encrypted.

The details regarding resistance to modification haven't been addressed yet either.

​

These words: " it will be used the same way as the Gp32" Says it all. The GP32 has no media DRM, no resistance to modification, only commercial game DRM.

The GP32 only used DRM for commercial games ONLY. Look at this forum and homebrew games that spew out daily. Does it look choked by DRM? As a matter of fact I haven't even heard DRM mentioned here except after all of the conspiracy theories started at boingboing.

As a matter of fact I can't stand DRM. If the GP32 or GP2X had any kind of DRM other than commercial games I wouldn't even be here. The fact that these are so open is why I own and like the GP32, and have pre-ordered the GP2X.

 

[Alpha2]

Mplayer is software, nothing to do with the system itself, if it gets in your way, get another player (assuming there is one).

 

[Htwo]

It looks like license revocation has been ruled out, which is nice, but that was never very likely in the first place

There are still some things left to be cleared up:

Craig says parts of Mplayer will be encrypted with DRM, GPH say only downloaded games will be encrypted.

The details regarding resistance to modification haven't been addressed yet either.

​

These words: " it will be used the same way as the Gp32" Says it all.

The GP32 only used DRM for commercial games ONLY. Look at this forum and homebrew games that spew out daily. Does it look choked by DRM? As a matter of fact I haven't even heard DRM mentioned here except after all of the conspiracy theories started at boingboing.

​

A reason for using DRM Craig gives in his official statement is "Without DRM we would not be able to licence certain media formats" IE, some of the codecs used by Mplayer in the GP2X are encrypted with DRM.

I hope you are right, and that this is wrong.

"conspiracy theories" is a bit harsh, as far as I can see it went something like this:

1) Cory gets sent a link to gp2x.co.uk by a reader and posts an entry saying the device looks very cool.

2) Cory gets sent another link to gpx2.com by a reader pointing out the page that mentions "certified drm", he agrees with the guy who sent him the link that this is "A blemish on an otherwise awesome product." and says it's put him off buying one. Before he put up this post 8 people had asked GPH about DRM, all queries had been ignored.

3) Cory puts up an update saying people have written in with three theories for how the GP2X uses DRM (incidentally all three theories tie in to what craig has said since) He goes on to say that there are two elements about DRM that bother him and says he would like someone to write in with factual details about these two elements in the GP2X. The 2nd problem has been addressed, I doubt the first will be till the unit is released.

I kind of feel people bash him as a kneejerk response.

 

[x68000]

he bashed the gp2x as a 'kneejerk' response, without having any facts whatsoever he started spouting off as if it was the bible truth.

He has no clue as to what it is otherwise he what never have wrote what he did if he was in posession of the facts, which he should have looked into before he wrote that trash on his so called website.

GPH arent sony or nintendo and can't withstand that kind of misinformed publicity.

 

[Htwo]

he bashed the gp2x as a 'kneejerk' response, without having any facts whatsoever he started spouting off as if it was the bible truth.

He has no clue as to what it is otherwise he what never have wrote what he did if he was in posession of the facts, which he should have looked into before he wrote that trash on his so called website.

GPH arent sony or nintendo and can't withstand that kind of misinformed publicity.

​

It would be kind of hard for him to be in possession of all the facts since at that point in time GPH were ignoring people who asked about DRM.

So saying that he thought the drm in the gp2x looked like a "A blemish on an otherwise awesome product." is bashing and a kneejerk response now? Sounds like a fair comment based on what he was able to find out.

Even now the info on DRM is contradictory: will it be applied only to commercial games, or will parts of the default install be encrypted too?

 

[Alpha2]

The discription was "Without DRM we would not be able to licence certain media formats" assuming I Ctrl-Ved that right.

Which would apply to certain things like WMA which may or maynot be locked by the person distributing it. Now I can download a WMA and play it no problem, If I buy one it's locked and the only way I can open it is with a device that recognizes DRM. Am I correct in this assumption? If so I dont see a problem as long as I bought it legitimatly.

That's just part of the chip that makes up the machine, it's not some cutom job designed to specifically screw the user of the device. If they decided to use it for games then they're just tying to make money on they're well with in their right just as I'm well within mine not to buy content from them if it is locked by DRM. Does'nt matter a whole great deal seeing as I can just play the stuf that people are making FREELY for the system just as they did for the GP32 which this forum was built around. If he'd have looked a little deeper maybe his post wouldnt have been so dire about the 2X because he would have understood the intent of it's creators.

The only way this DRM becomes a problem is if GPH themselves try to restrict your use of something you already have and the chances of that are non existant.


I'm actually curious, what do all these naysayers really think the DRM in the 2X is supposed to stop? List the things you're afraid you WONT be able to do with it.

 

[OrR]

Mplayer is software, nothing to do with the system itself, if it gets in your way, get another player (assuming there is one).

​

...or make one yourself. If the default media player can play those crappy DRMed Apple files and stuff, great. Nice addition for people who buy that stuff. However it will of course play all you ripped DVD movies, mp3s and everything you got with Bittorrent or from the Archive.

 

[DaveC]

It would be kind of hard for him to be in possession of all the facts since at that point in time GPH were ignoring people who asked about DRM.

So saying that he thought the drm in the gp2x looked like a "A blemish on an otherwise awesome product." is bashing and a kneejerk response now? Sounds like a fair comment based on what he was able to find out.

Even now the info on DRM is contradictory: will it be applied only to commercial games, or will parts of the default install be encrypted too?

​

GPH doesn't have a staff of 50 people sitting there 24 hours a day to answer all of the inquiries instantly. It sometimes takes a few days, they are trying to get a console out

GPH has already said themselves now that only commercial games are effected. so that is it. This means no other encryption, exactly like the GP32.

This comment basically slags it off saying pretty much screw this thing.

"I agree -- WTF? So much for ordering one of these"

So without all of the facts he basically says don't buy it. He could of said something like " looks cool, I am not sure yet the extent of the DRM though, I will need to look into it further" or something like that.

 

[mhz]

DRM is the wrong word. Boingboing minifiasco may just be a litmus test.

It seems DRM is a very bad name as the function is for copy protection.

From the statements issued by Craig from UK
http://www.gbax.com/drmgp2x.html
and Anna from Gamepark
http://www.gpx2.com/support/support_sugest...o=1722&bunho=17

Copy protection in various forms has been around forever to stop the copying of games as a benign technology to enforce copyright on games and no one really minds it.

DRM however encompasses not only copy protection but Evil Megacorporations Crushing Consumer Rights, Crippling Devices and Imprisoning Scientists.

DRM:
:angry: post purchase feature loss (TIVO, iPOD, iTunes);
:unsure: Russian Scientist Dimitri Skylarof's imprisonment in US for allowing Adobe eBooks to be copied to devices used by the visually impaired;
never ending DRM locks in place even after work enters public domain;
:huh: CSS preventing Linux users watching DVDs;
inabilitiy to play DRMed CDs on Apple or Linux;

DRM stands for an endless list of Industry led Abuses of Power and Infringement of the public domain.
It is associated with overreaching Intellectual property laws such as the European Software Patents proposed legislation have been seen as the biggest threat to Linux and Open Source and small developers ever.

As the GP2X wants to market using ideas such as Open Source, Linux, MAME and SDL then the reaction from the BoingBoing post will repeated everytime a geek spots the DRM acronym and it'll be firefighting all the way.

It's not just geeks and nerds, the general populace is beginning to hate DRM as the answer to the question Q:"Why did MY Tivo delete the Simpsons?", A:"DRM"

I reckon be clear, if it has copy protection for commercial games state that don't use the all encompassing DRM phrase.

And probably best not to say Open Source unless it is compliant with the Open Source Definition
http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php

The GP2X is a beautiful and uniquely placed tech, I reckon a lot of people will want one for a lot of different reasons as well as homebrew games and EMUs, especially if it get WiFi and powered USB HDDs.

 

[Prophet]

If GPH changes the term "DRM" to "copy protection" it would be lying. The hardware has DRM facilities built-in by default. It's how the DRM is used that matters. GamePark has explained how it wil be used in GP2X - for a very benign and understandable purpose - copy protection of what very few commercial games we may get. Just like the GP32 before it.

Again, this is all about people having mindless pavlovian responses rather than looking at facts.

DRM however encompasses not only copy protection but Evil Megacorporations Crushing Consumer Rights, Crippling Devices and Imprisoning Scientists.

Seems the black helicopter crowd have discovered GamePark. <_< Without "EVIIIIIILLL" companies and corporations there would be no products to cripple. And what's with capitalizing each word - are you quoting a holy book or something? :unsure: That line reads like a South Park script.

DRM is a technology, a tool. It's HOW it's used that matters. It's like a knife - a lot of people get stabbed to death with knives every year, but you don't stop using knives to slice your bread.

Calling companies out when they've done wrong is fine. But this sort of paranoid kneejerk condemnation is crazy.

As for the masses being turned off to GP2X over this non-issue - if they're that mindless then good riddance. The GP32 scene was great without them, the GP2X scene will be the same.

 

[yaustar]

On the DRM issue, if it is a feature set in the hardware, does it prevent developers to doing anything to the hardware (as in does it prevent devs to access it directly etc)?