Craig - Email The Boingboing Guy About The Drm

[ldpm]

I'm a boingboing reader who found out about the gpx2 via boingboing, and I'm pretty excited about it. However, I've been looking for an answer to the DRM question (emailed the american distributor, got an unsure response of "commercial games and maybe some media formats"). Usually, the boingboing guy is pretty good about posting updates, and I think as users and official people respond to him about what the DRM situation is, he'll post that information so everyone can make their own decision. Certainly, if someone can post a clear "this is what it will do, and this is what it won't do" answer, I'll add my voice and forward it back to Cory.

That said, I haven't actually been able to find a real answer anywhere. What will be DRMed? What won't? If a media player is DRMed, will it prevent me from rolling my own media player with the SDK and using it instead? I searched this forum, found this thread, and saw that it would be games and "most likely" that's it. It's that "most likely" part that's making people uncomfortable. People want to know that, if someone creates an iTunes emulator or something, that the next firmware update won't kill it (at least, not on purpose).

Thanks much, and looking forward to the release!

 

[Alpha2]

...this is a very very long article and only seems to come around to a single conclusion over and over again. Yeah we get he dosen't like DRM but it dosent change the fact that having it on the GP2X dosent change anything, except the ability to play pirated content like music and movies that frankly would have been cracked long before it even gets to the system... if anything I'd assume having some system for DRM would make it easier to play your content (assuming you bought it all legal like) because without it you'd just get encrypted digital hash.

Is he saying they shouldnt use DRM because people will just hack it anyway? that's not going to stop anyone from trying to protect their content. Should I drop my firewall and stop using antivirus software just because people keep making viruses?

I really dont see his point.

 

[Vimacs]

Drm on the gp32,
WONT restrict you from running your own software.
WONT restrict you from running any free software /emus with your romz0rs.
WONT restrict you from playing back your media, evrything that you could play if gp2x wont have drm will work the same.
WONT restrict you from anything.

WILL allow commercial games to be protected, without drm they wont even be done.

The gp2x mplayer and any other free software WILL NOT make use of the drm.

DRM allows you to have commercial stuff while still haveing FREE stuff.
Without drm either the complete platform would haveto be lcoked or you wont get anything commercial.

DRM will likely be in the same way as secumax at gp32, simply protect commercial games.

DRM dosnt restrict you as a user!

now stop whineing.

 

[Huxley]

That said, I haven't actually been able to find a real answer anywhere. What will be DRMed? What won't? If a media player is DRMed, will it prevent me from rolling my own media player with the SDK and using it instead? I searched this forum, found this thread, and saw that it would be games and "most likely" that's it. It's that "most likely" part that's making people uncomfortable.

​

That may be true, but at least nobody here is jumping to conclusions and sensationalising the issue as Boing Boing have done.

You'd have to ask GPH directly to be sure about the DRM, but considering that GP32 used copy protection for commercial games only, I don't see why the GP2X would be any different.

 

[ldpm]

Yeah we get he dosen't like DRM but it dosent change the fact that having it on the GP2X dosent change anything, except the ability to play pirated content like music and movies that frankly would have been cracked long before it even gets to the system...

​

I don't pirate music or movies, but I want to be able to if I want to. But that's the real question here; what will it do? One the one hand, various other posts seem to indicate that it's totally optional and opt-in, such that a software app has to be written specifically to take advantage of it, or else it has no effect. That sounds great. More than great. Perfect.

On the other hand, Apple has released firmware releases for the iPod that prevent people from playing songs legally bought from online music stores that aren't iTunes but that were otherwise compatible, so some people who have been burned before are a little cautious about what "piracy" means to other people. The minute someone like Craig tells me that, without a doubt, DRM will be opt-in for developers and that's it is the minute I place my order.

 

[x68000]

@idpm

listen to vimacs (a respected member) on the subject too as he has explained exactly what the drm will mean to the end users.

 

[Prophet]

The minute someone like Craig tells me that, without a doubt, DRM will be opt-in for developers and that's it is the minute I place my order.

​

THERE: http://www.gbax.com/drmgp2x.html

That IS Craig who wrote that.

And Craig already emailed boingboing and apparently he was IGNORED.

Drama queen? Reveling in controversy because it keeps his blog readers coming back? Hmm...

Personally it's annoying because anyone who knows the GP32 scene knows what DRM means with GamePark.

 

[x68000]

i also posted the above on a new thread to hopefully give it some additional coverage

edit - did not realise that you had posted beforehand prophet, but its all for a good cause!

 

[DaveC]

Second, if anyone wants to know why I still think DRM is bad, I encourage anyone to read this article by the poster of that story (Cory Doctrow), read this transcript of a talk he gave to a Microsoft Research team.  As you can see, when he gets annoyed about DRM, well, he works for the EFF and all so he is sort of experienced in the matter.

Chris

​

Well I for one can't stand DRM. I use the example that if I buy alot of DRMed commercial games and my unit breaks requiring a replacement all of the stuff that I *paid for* stops working on the new unit. To me that is unfair. If I buy it I should be able to use it on *any* unit I want, and without big brother's permission. I don't see any other method for keeping downloaded commercial titles from being pirated. I am hoping for commercial titles that will also be available to buy on SD cards like the GP32 so I CAN use the game on any unit.

But this only applies to downloaded commercial titles on the GP2X and GP32. If you don't like the DRM don't buy the game.

This DRM doesn't affect all of the free linux apps, your mp3s, movies , homebrew stuff etc. Protected MP3s that wouldn't work on the GP2X wouldn't work on anything else like your PC etc anyway. That DRM is in the file not the GP2X.

The GP2X has an free SDK that comes with it too. You can make any game or app and give it to who you like, there is no DRM for that either.

 

[DaveC]

    People want to know that, if someone creates an iTunes emulator or something, that the next firmware update won't kill it (at least, not on purpose).

Thanks much, and looking forward to the release!

​

Well on the GP2X the company actually supports homebrew firmware. That is anyone can hack together their own firmware and update the unit with that. They don't force any FW updates like Sony etc. They are much too small of a company and don't even have any infrastructure to handle any kind of elaborate DRM like Ipod etc.

GPH basically sells the hardware and leaves the rest up to the community to make the software. It is a different model. GPH makes money selling hardware mostly. They just sell it to you, and what you do with it after you buy it is your business.

 

[ldpm]

The minute someone like Craig tells me that, without a doubt, DRM will be opt-in for developers and that's it is the minute I place my order.

​

THERE: http://www.gbax.com/drmgp2x.html

That IS Craig who wrote that.

As DaveC pointed out and Robster answered in a newer thread (http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showtopic=20784&view=findpost&p=272308), that response was vague. It explained why there would be DRM but not what it would do.

And Craig already emailed boingboing and apparently he was IGNORED.

Hey, man. I don't edit the thing. I read it. And, being familiar with Cory Doctorow's work and history, I read what he said as, "until someone authoritative explains exactly what will work and what will not, I'm not buying one." Someone has now (as of the post I linked to above, but not before) explained that in detail. I expect Cory will update the boingboing record in some reasonable amount of time, and if he doesn't, well, I'll be disappointed, but I won't stop reading boingboing.

Drama queen? Reveling in controversy because it keeps his blog readers coming back? Hmm...

Actually, what keeps readers coming back is a near constant barrage of interesting topics about a range of issues. He's a known copyfighter, so that certainly provides an editorial angle for the blog (see the recent posts on the Google library efforts), but the site is still a good source of interesting things that don't appear in my Reuter's headlines. And at least they haven't been going on about how much the readers of this message board apparently hate them now.

Personally it's annoying because anyone who knows the GP32 scene knows what DRM means with GamePark.

Well, I came to this site, revealed in my first post that I had no familiarity whatsoever with the GP32 scene, asked what I felt was a legitimate question (what will work and what won't), and was basically told to go shove it until (apparently) DaveC, an (apparent) authority in the community, said that my questions were (apparently) valid. Way to make me feel welcome.

I'll be buying one of these things, because it's frikkin sweet, but I'll be doing so only because someone finally got around to answering my actual question (what will work and what won't) rather than papering over it by telling me to relax, it's a good thing. Apple said that too, right before they screwed every iPod owner.

 

[Alpha2]

the question has been asked and awnsered several times in the past month. It would have been rather easy to search for.

 

[ldpm]

the question has been asked and awnsered several times in the past month. It would have been rather easy to search for.

​

As I noted in my original post, I had already searched for it. First, I searched for "drm", but the search engine disallowed it because it was a term of fewer than four characters. I then searched for "digital rights", and found this thread, the thread I eventually posted to, after reading what had come before, and seeing that there was no specific answer to my question (what will work and what won't). As I'd said, the closest I'd been able to find was "commercial games and that's likely it." Here is the URL of my search results, if you'd like to check timestamps:

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?act=S...=digital+rights

As of yesterday, in this very thread, julius, who is apparenty a "hardcore" poster to this board, didn't think the question had been adequately answered, either, and as of today, DaveC, apparently a guru, agreed, but I, one day after learning of the existence of this product, should have known better. I see.

You yourself in this thread posted information that was factually incorrect when you stated that the DRM on the gp2x would restrict "the ability to play pirated content like music and movies" (this link doesn't seem to work, but it's post #22 in this thread: http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showtopic=20776&st=15#)

So, if you're an example of the type of person advocating this product, posting incorrect information and then scolding people who can't find the correct information, it's no wonder people are cancelling their orders.

 

[Alpha2]

prehaps you like to tell me how I'm wrong in that statement because I can't actually see that.

And The thread started by Cyclops which I beleive you're refering to already states much the same thing by many of the same people as this one regardless of whether you believe my discription to have fault or not.

Still dosent change the fact that many people had a kneejerk reaction to the mention of it.

 

[Esn]

But DRM licenses typically come with at least two requirements that would make this device a deal breaker for me:

1. Resistance to user modification. This means that parts of the hardware and software are designed to be off-limits to the API, resistant to reverse-engineering, and not easily removable or replaceable.

2. Responsive to system renawability messages (SRMs). SRMs are messages that disable or cripple features in your device after you get it home, in order to restrict the functionality you've already paid for. Like when they reduced the number of times you can burn a playlist in iTunes, or when TiVo was "updated" with a new version of Macrovision that makes it possible for broadcasters to delete the shows you record.

Until someone can tell me on a non-speculative basis what modification-resistance and renewability measures are in place on this thing, you can bet that I'll never shell out my dough for one.

Well, point #1 has been sort-of dealt with in the discussions on the devs forum... what about point #2?

 

[Yuglooc]

As of yesterday, in this very thread, julius, who is apparenty a "hardcore" poster to this board, didn't think the question had been adequately answered, either, and as of today, DaveC, apparently a guru, agreed, but I, one day after learning of the existence of this product, should have known better. I see.

​

This picture

under your name is rewarded to people for knowing so you know that he know what the fuck he's talking about. I'm not saying DaveC is BS. But read Vimacs post. He tells you exactly what it does.

 

[ChrisS]

DaveC sez:

if I buy alot of DRMed commercial games and my unit breaks requiring a replacement all of the stuff that I *paid for* stops working on the new unit. To me that is unfair. If I buy it I should be able to use it on *any* unit I want, and without big brother's permission

I think a number of points you made need to be carefully repeated until they get more wide press. However, I do note that, ultimately, the DRM on the unit may actually affect the owner in certain circumstances - if it never affected you, what would be the point? In the above example, if the game maker/distributor were out of business, would there be any way at all to get the game to work on a new gp2x?

If you want to know why BB makes an issue of DRM, look at the TiVo example -- the TiVos that people already bought have been "upgraded" to take away options that were there at the time of purchase. This included enabling the remote deletion of recorded material - apparently without regard to whether or not you had watched it yet. TiVo's official response indicated that this was done so that they could "licence certain media formats" - exactly the reason stated for DRM in the gp2x.

That DRM is in the file not the GP2X.

This is second point, which is more subtle. Some DRM is in the application, not in the platform. Nothing I've seen here indicates that the gp2x platform would prevent developers from building an obnoxious DRM system in their app. Just as the gp2x lets developers do cool things for their users, it also lets them do uncool things for their users. That's openness. But the gp2x promoters shouldn't shy away from explaining this point. Simply saying "its not the gp2x, the gp2x is cool" doesn't address the concerns.

BB did update the gp2x item, and clarified their concern into two key questions. I've suggested what seem to be the answers, but I'm the newbie, not the expert -- correct as needed, please!

1) resistance to modification - from what I can see here, the gp2x has no resistance to modification, with one exception - the secumax module, which actually is a hardware module. The gp2x is a platform, not an appliance. If you choose to load new firmware that ignores the secumax module, it won't suddenly exert its influence on your gp2x. Of course, ignoring the secumax module may prevent secured applications from loading and running.

2) system renewability messages - this one I don't know. Are there secret messages that a special app could send to the Secumax module that would change its behaviour after you bought it? Here's an example - when I buy it, I can run secured apps unlimited numbers of times. Then a gp2x 'firmware update' also updates the secumax module so that secured apps can only be run 5000 times, after which the app must be refreshed by the manufacturer. Is there anything like that in the gp2x? Or is the gp2x I buy guaranteed to always keep the functionality it had the day I got it?

I also saw indications from some of my searches that special registration was needed to run free software. I didn't understand what was going on with that at all. Can someone knowledgeable explain, please?

When it comes down to it, the term DRM is increasing used to cover many possible meanings. If people are at all worried about it, they will assume that you have the most draconian DRM allowed by your explanation. Saying "it likely won't affect you, stop whining" might be correct - but it says nothing in the way of an explanation. Also, saying "it wasn't a problem on the gp32" also doesn't address the concerns, because it is the future people are worried about, not the past.

Finally - the BB editors likely get hundreds of emails a day, plus hundreds more site suggestions. The individual editors may not always be available on a given day - using the suggest link is the fastest way to get a response. Depending on load and availability, I would wait at least three days before declaring you are being ignored.

I'm sorry that the gp2x crew suddenly have to worry about this - but the actions of "big media" are making people increasingly suspicious of all media and device providers. This might not have been a big issue in the past, but it seems likely to only grow in the future.

 

[Alpha2]

Seems kinda sad that so many people would immediatly leap to that conclusion without trying to ask someone in the know first seeing as DRM could indeed mean so many things. That id would be posted on such a widely read blog without the benefit of a little extra effort to find out if it really is as bad as they think.

Atleast ldpm felt the question was answered too vaguely for his own needs and took the innitiative to investigate, I commend him for that, but I wish some investigation had occured before that post on BB went up.

 

[Vimacs]

The gp2x dosnt use secumax, the gp32 did, but iam sure the drm at the gp32 acts in a simmilar way, just provideing a copy protection for commercial software.
I think DRM is a misstranslation/bad wording, its likely nothing more but a id based protection.


On the gp32 a application checks the smc (evry smc haves a uniq number) or device (evry gp32 also haves a uniq number) id and uses it to actualy decrypt the programm.

Games you bought online where device id encrypted, so they ran on evry smc but just on the gp you bought it for.
Boxed games check the smc id, so they only work on the smc they came on, but on all gp's.

There ware also downloadable software wich encrypted to smc id instand of gp id.

You could even make smc images with embended id's that ran on a emulator.

When this is done in a secure way its the most userfrendly solution, it dosnt take any rights off you but protects the software.

 

[haplo]

If oyu don't like DRM content or games then don't buy them. Don't not buy the GP2X itself. Thats stupid. It makes sense for them to suport DRM (support not enforce) so they have a hot in hell of attracting bigger studios.

Why do people not bat an eye lash at buying a psp or a gameboy or things from I dunno, intel or microsoft, but then swear off the GP2X which is still way more open when its mentioed it will support DRM?