Bosbeetle
Terminally lost
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Cnc Data
- Thread starter 2097
- Start date
Your secrets, give them to me. They will be mine. ALL MINE! Mwuhahahahahaaaaa!!! (thunder and lightning etc.)
Seriously, how open do people expect things to be?
The fact that the purpose of the project is to allow people to use the hardware any way they see fit within its limitations so the end user can get the most out of the tech is generous enough. Giving out all the plans and info on the hardware would be kinda silly.
I suppose there is always gonna be a good chance of a shady manufacturer of socialist origin copying the case and sticking some crappy soc inside and selling the knockoff to clueless cheapskates if the Pandora becomes successful enough, but I doubt that anyone will go to the effort of reverse engineering the Pandora in order to manufacture and sell them. I think that would get the creators all litigious like.
Seriously, how open do people expect things to be?
The fact that the purpose of the project is to allow people to use the hardware any way they see fit within its limitations so the end user can get the most out of the tech is generous enough. Giving out all the plans and info on the hardware would be kinda silly.
I suppose there is always gonna be a good chance of a shady manufacturer of socialist origin copying the case and sticking some crappy soc inside and selling the knockoff to clueless cheapskates if the Pandora becomes successful enough, but I doubt that anyone will go to the effort of reverse engineering the Pandora in order to manufacture and sell them. I think that would get the creators all litigious like.
fireball87
Member
Or the would if reverse engineering wasn't legal in a whole heck of a lot of countries. USA for example... unless they have some secret patents I don't know about. Hard to sue someone for playing by the book. And enforcing any countries laws on china is neigh impossible. Not saying no one's not too lazy, I'm just saying it could be done for some amount of R&D cash. Probably takes less resources to RE the Pandora then it took to design the thing... seeing as almost all the components are obtainable... you should just have to RE the board itself.
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That wasn't what I intended. I was thinking of replacing parts of the case, maybe replace the plastic with some other interesting material. Just daydreaming of a nice steampunk wooden Pandora.
As for your other point ("Gee, thanks") I won't even try to traverse the sarcasm. I addressed some pros and cons of going open in a separate post already.
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Bosbeetle
Terminally lost
That wasn't what I intended. I was thinking of replacing parts of the case, maybe replace the plastic with some other interesting material. Just daydreaming of a nice steampunk wooden Pandora.
As for your other point ("Gee, thanks""] I won't even try to traverse the sarcasm. I addressed some pros and cons of going open in a separate post already.[/quote]
There are some 3d models around, try searching the forums. It might not be acurate but at least its something.
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Those are interesting points, fireball87. That's something to think about, thanks for your thoughtful tone.
The strong hardware support on a standard, OP produced baseline Pandora is one thing that could be a good help when trying to get emulator timing right, for example, (or so I've heard but I'm not sure about it—I guess you would need a good timing loop regardless), and many other things like drivers and a good distribution.
So working against a baseline is good but people could possibly still choose that even if there were modding opportunities available.
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One more thing;
one of the many appeals (certainly not the only) of the Pandora is the emulation possibilities. I'm sure some of the people at Sega, Nintendo and Sony are feeling the same way about that aspect of the Pandora as some of you are at the thought of "knockoffs".
Well, I'm probably not going to convince anyone, nor probably vice versa, and I didn't mean to be insulting.
Have a nice day.
one of the many appeals (certainly not the only) of the Pandora is the emulation possibilities. I'm sure some of the people at Sega, Nintendo and Sony are feeling the same way about that aspect of the Pandora as some of you are at the thought of "knockoffs".
Well, I'm probably not going to convince anyone, nor probably vice versa, and I didn't mean to be insulting.
Have a nice day.
Monk
Caveman Ninja
A. Zero or more people who wouldn't otherwise buy a Pandora would, just because the hardware is open and that's something they like. Also, more people might be inclined to put voluntary time into improving the software.
B. Zero or more people who otherwise would buy a Pandora wouldn't, opting to buy a knock-off instead.
...
I have no idea at all whether the number A is bigger than the number B, or, even if it is, whether it's bigger enough to justify the bother of releasing some or all of the models and boards. The future paths diverge from here, maybe a tachyon flow... My (completely unqualified) guess is that it is bigger.
...
(PS. I realize that in the case of both IBM and the old Mac clones, the number B was huge. The number A is of course unknown, but probably smaller in those two cases, especially since they didn't get the good will that someone who deliberately goes open gets—the IBM PC was reverse-engineered, after all, and the Mac, though clones were allowed for a while, ran proprietary (licensed) software.)
Apple have ALWAYS guarded their equipment zelously, targeting "Apple" clones like the "Pear" and so on strongly. They do NOT see the flattery inherant in the system, and have kept clones to the minimum at all times. So if you ever saw or heard of a clone, that would seem to indicate just how strongly people go after the cheaper option IMHO.
IBM weren't actually "open" with their design so much as they were caught with their trousers down around their ankles. They didn't really see the potential of the PC and didn't do enough to secure their slice of the pie - they even ended up selling the "IBM" PC business (to an Asian company IIRC) a few years back... because they lost out heavily to companies who took the IBM PC design and ran with it, making cheap knockoffs.
In the case of the IBM PCs, one could argue that the competition has been good for the consumer - although it has also lead to most of the compatability problems that we've had over the years (and so contributed to the mess that we call "Windows"). Prices have certainly come down though.
These examples aren't unique, but in both cases cheap knockoffs are seen to hurt the original company, either badly or in IBM's case devastatingly. If OpenPandora made the Pandora design completely open I personally would not want to put any money on your assertion that things would go differently for them. In neither example has the QUALITY of the end user been improved by having multiple manufacturers - only price has been improved, and I don't think OpenPandora are charging an exhorbitant amount for the Pandora as is - I suspect that a company making a product that's technically not inferior would be hard pressed to make THAT much of a price saving foi end users.
To summarise - I disagree. I think if there were cheaper Pandora knock-offs of lower quality around, people would tend to buy them rather than the higher quality real Pandora. Just like they bought PC clones, and just like they bought VHS instead of Betamax. We are, on the whole, tight with our money. I am not convinced that this would benefit either the community or the team that put the effort in to bring Pandora to fruition in the first place,
I don't think it's QUITE that simple, for various reasons (possibly a thread all it's own - again, as it's been hashed over a few times) but there is certainly an aspect of that inherant in the idea of emulation (of which quite a lot will probably happen on the Pandora).
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Apple have ALWAYS guarded their equipment zelously, targeting "Apple" clones like the "Pear" and so on strongly. They do NOT see the flattery inherant in the system, and have kept clones to the minimum at all times. So if you ever saw or heard of a clone, that would seem to indicate just how strongly people go after the cheaper option IMHO.[/quote]Specifically, I was referring to this era.
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IBM weren't actually "open" with their design so much as they were caught with their trousers down around their ankles.
That's what I wrote—they didn't deliberately go open. That's why they lost out on any potential good will and that's one of many reasons why they were so hated by the hackers.
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they even ended up selling the "IBM" PC business (to an Asian company IIRC) a few years back...
Yes. Lenovo.
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These examples aren't unique, but in both cases cheap knockoffs are seen to hurt the original company, either badly or in IBM's case devastatingly.
The reason I commented on these two cases was that they were well known cases where the knockoffs were, in the public's perception, seen to hurt the original company, a perception that's probably correct.
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If OpenPandora made the Pandora design completely open I personally would not want to put any money on your assertion that things would go differently for them.
Sure, it's a big risk and you may well be right.
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In neither example has the QUALITY of the end user been improved by having multiple manufacturers - only price has been improved,
The hackability is the main thing that would improve. That would be totally awesome.
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To summarise - I disagree. I think if there were cheaper Pandora knock-offs of lower quality around, people would tend to buy them rather than the higher quality real Pandora.
But the Pandora crew has such a personality. Wouldn't people want to support this very human project that they've followed from idea to finished gadget?
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Just like they bought PC clones, and just like they bought VHS instead of Betamax.
Yes. Betamax was closed and the original PC was closed. VHS and the PC clones were, ever so slighty, more open. Just like Pandora is slightly more open than, say, the PSP.
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fireball87
Member
I try to post with some intelligence (between the random trolling at least... erm i mean!).
Just in case you weren't aware he's the guy who designed the boards. If someone went to on the forums of one of my software projects and said they wish there were cheaper copies of my project (of various quality differences, doesn't hook into my update system or something perhaps) on other sites (whether or not my project is open source, seeing as you can sell open source, specially your own) I'd prolly be somewhat sarcastic too. People profiting off my work at the cost of myself profiting off my work is a VERY annoying prospect. He's one who would likely be hurt most by a bad clone market. His sarcasm is within reason, so at least be happy you got the joy of being sarcastically replied to by someone erm... important.
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Thanks for the heads up.
To reiterate:
- I didn't know that the Pandora wasn't open hardware
- I was investigating the possibility of a cosmetic case mod, not a board mod
- Someone else brought up the idea of knockoffs, and I'm personally not scared of those (but I'm well aware that it's not my own neck on the line)
On a personal note, I've been interested in various free/open ways of thinking for many years, but a few years ago, I was working on a three month long, full time, personal creative project. While I was working on it, I was torn—how could I release this work as a free project? What if any changes would be completely contrary to what I wanted to present?—and I had a guilty conscience for being such a “free fanatic” (some would say “freetard”)—even pro-piracy debater—and then hesitate when it was my own turn to step up to the plate. However once the work was done, finished, and I could relax and take a step back, I didn't see the problem anymore and I didn't mind releasing it free-as-in-speech. But when I was heads deep in it, working, creating—sure, I can absolutely see MWeston's point of view if you put it like that.
(So now I understand why he'd be sarcastic. I'm just not very apt at grepping through sarcasm for data.)
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urjaman
"I Know. We're going for a ride."
I thought one of the points in pandora was to allow hardware mods, but i'm mostly in the same line with you - with this addition:
I would actually like a big picture of the pandora board (populated, taken with a relatively high-resolution digital camera, both sides) with marked chips (U1...Un) (eg. go with paint and put text on the chip) and a list of what they are and a list of solderable pads (1...n) (marked in the picture too) and their signals/purposes (eg. where they connect to). This is all that is really needed for any hardware mods possible. I remember a picture and a listing from way back when it still had internal ext conn, but not one of a (even near) final board. One doesnt need to know the internal routing of the signals for modding, and this is the real secret sauce AFAIK. Anyways, i wont have any use for this before i get the pandora, so if you (addressed to some openpandora dev) have something better pandora-related thing to do, please do.
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Monk
Caveman Ninja
Yes. Betamax was closed and the original PC was closed. VHS and the PC clones were, ever so slighty, more open. Just like Pandora is slightly more open than, say, the PSP.
Wow. I'd forgotten (or glossed over?) that whole "official clone" period. I don't beleive it failed because it was too late BTW, but because Apple wanted paying.
There is some risk of this thread actually getting heated, so I'm deliberately cutting down this reponse to be more specific and avoid (I hope!) the appearance of ranting.
I believe that "open-ness" (or lack of it) has little to nothing to do with the IBM, Apple, or VCR examples - and nor does personality for the most part (thoguh Apple's success is PARTIALLY associated with Steve job's personality, at least). I think that the largest impact, by far, on whehter people buy the "best2 or the "cheapest" comes down to whether there is a "cheapest" available that seems to do the same job. If there is, then a large percentage of people seem to buy "cheaper" rather than "better". VHS Vs Betamax shows that well IMHO, as BetaMax was a better product but more costly - I beleive VHS won the VCR wars almost entirely on price alone.
Whether this community would give OpenPandora more money than another company for a product which appeared, on paper, to be identical is an interesting topic. I suspect some would, but others would certainly not. However, this community is small compared to the POTENTIAL sales of Pandora-like products, and no-one outside this community would give OpenPandora more money for what appears to be the same product without some very compelling reason - and Craig's legs just don't do it for me
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W
WhiteBat
Guest
I would actually like a big picture of the pandora board (populated, taken with a relatively high-resolution digital camera, both sides) with marked chips (U1...Un)
this is what i plan on doing when i get my pandora, but for personal use. since OP usually posts low res pics and i probably pissed them off for putting some high res pics on the phobucket picture compilation.
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WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
- Joined
- May 24, 2008
- Messages
- 16,731
To reiterate, OpenPandora isn't holding you or anyone else back, they're just not going to stand behind you and give you a push every now and then. If you want to make case mods or clones, you'll probably be able to do that, you're just expected to do the work yourself.
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You are kidding, right?
The Pandora board is a slightly tweaked Beagle Board. There are probably hundreds of shops in China (and thousands all over the world) that could start now with a beagle board and have something similar enough to the Pandora board before the Pandora is generally available.
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Bosbeetle
Terminally lost
is the beagleboard open hardware?
bzar
A Commando
You are kidding, right?
The Pandora board is a slightly tweaked Beagle Board. There are probably hundreds of shops in China (and thousands all over the world"] that could start now with a beagle board and have something similar enough to the Pandora board before the Pandora is generally available.[/quote]Yes, but unlike the beagleboard, Pandora is a consumer-ready device that doesn't take a computer enthusiast to use.
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Squidge
Certified Guru
The Pandora board is a slightly tweaked Beagle Board.
Yeah, right
Sure, they share some of the same components (eg. SoC, T2) but other than that, its nothing like a Beagleboard.
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MWeston
Internal Development
The Pandora board is a slightly tweaked Beagle Board.
Such an ignorant comment. The Pandora board was being manufactured before I ever even held a Beagle board. It has the same processor and power management chip. That's it.
I didn't take a Beagleboard layout and add a 5 port USB hub and call it a Touchbook (no offense to Gregoire intended). Sorry, I get a little offended when someone says this just has a Beagleboard inside. It was a completely custom design that took me months of 12-16 hour days to get done.
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